Mystic and Super Saiyan... One last time

[Darkprince410]

Rild says that Goku, upon activating SS, was only using half of his power up until that point in the battle. Implying Goku's SS has shrunk while his base form has powered up. Similar to how people assume Gokhan would work with a incredibly strong base form making his multipliers smaller.

No. Rild's comment was that he hadn't even been using half his power up to that point.

Rild: “Up to now, you haven't been putting out half of your power.”

That leaves room for the boost from Super Saiya-jin to have been the full 50x increase.

No, but I wouldn't call it a form, either. It's just Gohan powering up.

Given that Piccolo indicates that his appearance was altered in addition to the power-up and ki alteration, it would make sense to refer to it as a transformation, just on a more permanent nature.

Piccolo: “Is-is that Gohan…!? No…Something’s different about him…His features are a little different…And he has a different type of ki than before…His softness has vanished too…That’s why I couldn’t tell it was him…”

[Analytic]

Rild says that Goku, upon activating SS, was only using half of his power up until that point in the battle. Implying Goku's SS has shrunk while his base form has powered up. Similar to how people assume Gokhan would work with a incredibly strong base form making his multipliers smaller.

No. Rild's comment was that he hadn't even been using half his power up to that point.

Rild: “Up to now, you haven't been putting out half of your power.”

That leaves room for the boost from Super Saiya-jin to have been the full 50x increase.

While it is still possible for the SS boost to be 50x, that'd make Rild's statement a very massive understatement.

[Hitiro]

Given that Piccolo indicates that his appearance was altered in addition to the power-up and ki alteration, it would make sense to refer to it as a transformation, just on a more permanent nature.

Piccolo: “Is-is that Gohan…!? No…Something’s different about him…His features are a little different…And he has a different type of ki than before…His softness has vanished too…That’s why I couldn’t tell it was him…”

But you could say that his appearance change is just the way that he presents himself. If he looks angry all the time, for instance, you could say that his appearance has changed. It's like how when Goku and Gohan come out of the RoSaT. The others said they looked different. But it was still the same form essentially.

While it is still possible for the SS boost to be 50x, that'd make Rild's statement a very massive understatement.

While it is a massive understatement it is much easier to say than saying something like "You haven't even been using one fiftieth of your power until now." The other issue is that issue is that if Goku was using just under half of his power before his transformation he would be getting mitigating returns on the transformations. Oh would we justify using the other transformations if he got such a little boost from them? If it came time for him to fight against a strong character and he couldn't win as a SSJ, with his SSJ3 form being only a slightly bit stronger, what reason would he have in going SSJ3 with the massive drawbacks of the form? He may as well just seal off the transformation at that point and try to win in a weaker form which guarantees that he won't burn through all his energy.

[Analytic]

While it is a massive understatement it is much easier to say than saying something like "You haven't even been using one fiftieth of your power until now."

That is also true.

Oh would we justify using the other transformations if he got such a little boost from them? If it came time for him to fight against a strong character and he couldn't win as a SSJ, with his SSJ3 form being only a slightly bit stronger, what reason would he have in going SSJ3 with the massive drawbacks of the form? He may as well just seal off the transformation at that point and try to win in a weaker form which guarantees that he won't burn through all his energy.

I don't believe that his SS3 form is only slightly stronger than his SS form.

[Hitiro]

Oh would we justify using the other transformations if he got such a little boost from them? If it came time for him to fight against a strong character and he couldn't win as a SSJ, with his SSJ3 form being only a slightly bit stronger, what reason would he have in going SSJ3 with the massive drawbacks of the form? He may as well just seal off the transformation at that point and try to win in a weaker form which guarantees that he won't burn through all his energy.

I don't believe that his SS3 form is only slightly stronger than his SS form.

But if you were to believe that he is already around 50% of his full power in his base form then all of the SSJ transformations would be fractions of that remaining 50% with SSJ3 only be 2x stronger than his base. Splitting the remaining 50% evenly then the SSJ3 boost would only be 2/3rds stronger than his SSJ form if you were to have something like this:

Base Goku: 50%
SSJ Goku: 66.66%
SSJ2 Goku: 83.32%
SSJ3 Goku: 100%

[Analytic]

But if you were to believe that he is already around 50% of his full power in his base form then all of the SSJ transformations would be fractions of that remaining 50% with SSJ3 only be 2x stronger than his base.

But that's not what I believe.

[Hitiro]

But if you were to believe that he is already around 50% of his full power in his base form then all of the SSJ transformations would be fractions of that remaining 50% with SSJ3 only be 2x stronger than his base.

But that's not what I believe.

Ah, okay, sorry. It just seemed like you were trying to back up that idea because of what was said in the anime.

[Analytic]

But if you were to believe that he is already around 50% of his full power in his base form then all of the SSJ transformations would be fractions of that remaining 50% with SSJ3 only be 2x stronger than his base.

But that's not what I believe.

Ah, okay, sorry. It just seemed like you were trying to back up that idea because of what was said in the anime.

I do back up the idea, but I don't back up that Base Goku is 50% of SS3 Goku. Rild said that Goku wasn't putting out even half of his power up until he transformed into a Super Saiyan 1, so I interpret that as Base Goku being less than 50% of SS1 Goku, but more than 33.33% of SS1 Goku since Rild didn't say 1/3rd.
[spoiler]Here is how I view it in numbers:

Base Goku: 1 (40% of SS Goku)
SS Goku: 2.5
SS2 Goku: 3.125
SS3 Goku: 6.25[/spoiler]

[Hitiro]

I do back up the idea, but I don't back up that Base Goku is 50% of SS3 Goku. Rild said that Goku wasn't putting out even half of his power up until he transformed into a Super Saiyan 1, so I interpret that as Base Goku being less than 50% of SS1 Goku, but more than 33.33% of SS1 Goku since Rild didn't say 1/3rd.
[spoiler]Here is how I view it in numbers:

Base Goku: 1 (40% of SS Goku)
SS Goku: 2.5
SS2 Goku: 3.125
SS3 Goku: 6.25[/spoiler]

To be honest I thing it's very deterministic in what Rild said during this scene because if we was like any other character, with the exception of magical beings like Dabra who use other methods to tell how strong a character is like clairvoyance or something, they have never been able to determine a Saiyan's true power with transformations included. When somebody has said "full power" it generally means the "full power" of that form. And then they are shocked when the Saiyan's exhibit their transformations. Also characters haven't been able to discern how much power a character has truly been using in a fight, barring full power which I guess has some sort of "full" feeling because characters seem to know when a character is using their full power. Goku against Freeza showed that Goku couldn't gauge how much of Freeza's power he was using/had. Goku thought Freeza was bluffing when Freeza said he would only need half to beat Goku. And Goku had to tell Karin that what he showed him was half of his power.

[Analytic]

To be honest I thing it's very deterministic in what Rild said during this scene because if we was like any other character they have never been able to determine a Saiyan's true power with transformations included.

I'm not arguing that Rild was able to gauge Goku's SS3 power, what I'm saying that Rild was basing his statement off of the Ki he felt from Base Goku and the Ki he felt from SS1 Goku.

[Hitiro]

To be honest I thing it's very deterministic in what Rild said during this scene because if we was like any other character they have never been able to determine a Saiyan's true power with transformations included.

I'm not arguing that Rild was able to gauge Goku's SS3 power, what I'm saying that Rild was basing his statement off of the Ki he felt from Base Goku and the Ki he felt from SS1 Goku.

That would be fair enough but the issue is he would have to know what was 100% to know what 50% was.

[Analytic]

To be honest I thing it's very deterministic in what Rild said during this scene because if we was like any other character they have never been able to determine a Saiyan's true power with transformations included.

I'm not arguing that Rild was able to gauge Goku's SS3 power, what I'm saying that Rild was basing his statement off of the Ki he felt from Base Goku and the Ki he felt from SS1 Goku.

That would be fair enough but the issue is he would have to know what was 100% to know what 50% was.

Well, to Rild, I would assume 100% would be SS Goku, as that's the strongest Ki he had felt from Goku at that point, and he would have no reason to assume Goku could get stronger since Goku never says that he has more transformations to Rild. That is how I interpret it at least.

[TheGreatness25]

The irony that this was a big deal against GT being brought into the new series hadn't escaped me lol I can't tell you how many times I discussed Gohan going Super Saiyan in GT with others. Has Gohan gotten a more prominent role in Super yet or does he still look like Tuxedo Mask except as a Super Saiyan?

Anyway, if you want an explanation, you'll just have to assume that Old Kaioshin's power up wore off. He unlocked all of Gohan's potential, but Gohan just buried it again with his inactivity. Upon burying that potential again, the powered up form is no more and he needs to transform into a Super Saiyan to power up again.

[Hitiro]

Well, to Rild, I would assume 100% would be SS Goku, as that's the strongest Ki he had felt from Goku at that point, and he would have no reason to assume Goku could get stronger since Goku never says that he has more transformations to Rild. That is how I interpret it at least.

That's assuming Goku was using full power as a SSJ though? I would imagine that at any time Goku used SSJ he wouldn't have to be using the full power of it. If he was using 4% of his SSJ form that would be twice as strong as his base form.

[Analytic]

That's assuming Goku was using full power as a SSJ though?

You can believe that he wasn't if you wish, though I always assume full power unless stated otherwise.

[Desassina]

As a creative map, I decided to compare Ultimate to Full Power SSJ. We have:

SSJ -> Grade II -> Grade III -> Full Power, in the Cell saga.
SSJ -> SSJ2 -> SSJ3 -> Ultimate, in the Boo saga.

For every attempt at getting stronger through unnatural means, there's always someone's power towering others' as a regular state. It could be dropped to lower levels though, hence why Cell could use the equivalent of Grade II on top of his suppressed state against Trunks, when he had access to his full power without deformation. Gohan's got suppressed by his lack of training, so he went back to the shortcuts in RoF and its DB Super equivalent.

I guess that it's like a switch that you can turn on and off, which defaults to the highest transformation. Since Ultimate was still present, but not working, Gohan had to manually change it to SSJ or SSJ2.

[fadeddreams5]

The reason this confuses people, including myself, is because the English dub, the viz translation, and the video games all have Old Kai basically telling Gohan to go SSJ to access his mystic powers.

The original manga does not have him say this:
Elder Kaioshin: “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”
Gohan: “The gist of Super Saiyan…I-I got it…!”

So he's not merely becoming a SSJ. There's a little more than that.

[Tectorman]

The reason this confuses people, including myself, is because the English dub, the viz translation, and the video games all have Old Kai basically telling Gohan to go SSJ to access his mystic powers.

The original manga does not have him say this:
Elder Kaioshin: “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”
Gohan: “The gist of Super Saiyan…I-I got it…!”

So he's not merely becoming a SSJ. There's a little more than that.

Except, everything that you just quoted is also consistent with the idea that "the gist of SSJ plus a kiai" is the activation method for Ultimate, each and every time Gohan wants to use it, not just once then done.

I mean, exactly how would a new reader, only familiar with the source material and not additional material like the Viz translation or the anime or video games come to the conclusion you say he should? He is familiar with the concept of SSJ, and it is very clearly established that no SSJ transformation has ever been permanent. He then gets to this part in the series, where Gohan has a new power-up and needs to know how to use it.

How does this hypothetical new reader read:

Elder Kaioshin: “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”
Gohan: “The gist of Super Saiyan…I-I got it…!”

and come to the conclusion that he is supposed to interpret Gohan's new power-up as permanent when the thing it's being compared to (SSJ) has never been permanent?

[fadeddreams5]

The reason this confuses people, including myself, is because the English dub, the viz translation, and the video games all have Old Kai basically telling Gohan to go SSJ to access his mystic powers.

The original manga does not have him say this:
Elder Kaioshin: “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”
Gohan: “The gist of Super Saiyan…I-I got it…!”

So he's not merely becoming a SSJ. There's a little more than that.

Except, everything that you just quoted is also consistent with the idea that "the gist of SSJ plus a kiai" is the activation method for Ultimate, each and every time Gohan wants to use it, not just once then done.

I mean, exactly how would a new reader, only familiar with the source material and not additional material like the Viz translation or the anime or video games come to the conclusion you say he should? He is familiar with the concept of SSJ, and it is very clearly established that no SSJ transformation has ever been permanent. He then gets to this part in the series, where Gohan has a new power-up and needs to know how to use it.

How does this hypothetical new reader read:

Elder Kaioshin: “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”
Gohan: “The gist of Super Saiyan…I-I got it…!”

and come to the conclusion that he is supposed to interpret Gohan's new power-up as permanent when the thing it's being compared to (SSJ) has never been permanent?

Wait...what?

I'm saying it's understandable people exposed to the dub, viz translation, and video games first would come to the conclusion that Gohan needs to go SSJ to activate his mystic form. Thus, it wouldn't make sense for him to be able to use both.

People who research what the original manga states will come to the conclusion that Gohan doesn't merely go SSJ to activate his mystic state. It's a state activated like SSJ (hence, "gist of"), where he also has to "throw in a kiai."

I never said anything about permanence.

[Tectorman]

The reason this confuses people, including myself, is because the English dub, the viz translation, and the video games all have Old Kai basically telling Gohan to go SSJ to access his mystic powers.

The original manga does not have him say this:
Elder Kaioshin: “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”
Gohan: “The gist of Super Saiyan…I-I got it…!”

So he's not merely becoming a SSJ. There's a little more than that.

Except, everything that you just quoted is also consistent with the idea that "the gist of SSJ plus a kiai" is the activation method for Ultimate, each and every time Gohan wants to use it, not just once then done.

I mean, exactly how would a new reader, only familiar with the source material and not additional material like the Viz translation or the anime or video games come to the conclusion you say he should? He is familiar with the concept of SSJ, and it is very clearly established that no SSJ transformation has ever been permanent. He then gets to this part in the series, where Gohan has a new power-up and needs to know how to use it.

How does this hypothetical new reader read:

Elder Kaioshin: “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”
Gohan: “The gist of Super Saiyan…I-I got it…!”

and come to the conclusion that he is supposed to interpret Gohan's new power-up as permanent when the thing it's being compared to (SSJ) has never been permanent?

Wait...what?

I'm saying it's understandable people exposed to the dub, viz translation, and video games first would come to the conclusion that Gohan needs to go SSJ to activate his mystic form. Thus, it wouldn't make sense for him to be able to use both.

People who research what the original manga states will come to the conclusion that Gohan doesn't merely go SSJ to activate his mystic state. It's a state activated like SSJ (hence, "gist of"), where he also has to "throw in a kiai."

I never said anything about permanence.

Oh, I'm sorry. I must've read something into your post that wasn't there. Most times I see someone talking about the original version of the text and quoting that specific line, it's because they're making the argument for Mystic being a new permanent base for Gohan.

Rereading your post, that is not what you were saying. My bad.