Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

[ABED]

^ that exchange implies nothing about Goku hitting his limits. From the text it just sounds like it's so hard on the body it's not worth doing as he wouldn't gain much and that Vegeta needed it despite that fact.

He didn't even try because of how confident he was in Gohan.

He explicitly told Vegeta in episode 169 that it would be counterproductive. Then Vegeta that Vegeta still has room for improvement, clearly implying that Goku's reached his limit.

It implies that he's hit a wall. Either way, he couldn't get the power necessary to defeat Cell regardless of whether he trained in RST for the time he had left.

[SSJ Human]

I agree, Goku's character is very different in Super - not that they even changed him, but rather they reverted him back to how he was in before the Buu arc.

Goku seems to have forgotten the last twelve or so years in terms of his characterization.

[Soppa Saia People]

I remember that Gokuu was kind of a snarky asshole in that arc, and I loved it. But I wouldn't go as far to say he was at his best there, though he was fairly smart and responsible compared to his Cell arc character.

[Desassina]

I thought that there was a change in Goku's character as soon as the Cell games. It seemed like he didn't want to put the effort to fight for his life, or anybody else's, but to invest in the quality of his training and the others'. Perhaps he started to realize that a new generation would spare him the trouble for years to come, and left the world to be some kind of overseer, and that's why I enjoy the ending of DBZ and GT. In other words, he has matured, and with age he has started to invest in his quality of life. He's not that different from sportsmen who don't exhaust themselves past a certain age. Goku being brought back to put an end to Majin Boo is like a rock star being invited to play a nostalgic gig for the fans.

[sintzu]

Goku being brought back to put an end to Majin Boo is like a rock star being invited to play a nostalgic gig for the fans.

I think Goku's return and passing the mantle to Gohan would've had a bigger impact if we got 1 or 2 arcs before Buu that completely focused on Gohan as the main character and everyone trying to survive without Goku.

[ABED]

with age he has started to invest in his quality of life. He's not that different from sportsmen who don't exhaust themselves past a certain age. Goku being brought back to put an end to Majin Boo is like a rock star being invited to play a nostalgic gig for the fans.

Goku's in his THIRTIES in the Buu arc, though that's only chronologically. He didn't age in the 7 years he was dead, plus Saiyans' prime lasts longer than humans so can we please stop acting like he's over the hill? Yes, there's a new generation but Goku is still best suited for the lead of Dragon Ball, not Gohan, not Goten, not Pan, not Uub. Gohan doesn't quite fit as the lead of a wuxia series. He doesn't love fighting.

[Desassina]

Man, you're on a roll. You disagree with everything for the sake of it. I would advise you to stop with the contrarian attitude. In any case, Goku is not a character that writes himself with the logic of in-universe aging. He's been written by someone who has aged in real life, and so it's not impossible for him to have matured as an extension of Akira Toriyama's style. You can tell when the new writers for DBS are depicting him very differently.

[sintzu]

Man, you're on a roll. You disagree with everything for the sake of it.

He'll also debate you over your personal preference and try to make it seem wrong if he doesn't agree with it.

[ABED]

Man, you're on a roll. You disagree with everything for the sake of it. I would advise you to stop with the contrarian attitude. In any case, Goku is not a character that writes himself with the logic of in-universe aging. He's been written by someone who has aged in real life, and so it's not impossible for him to have matured as an extension of Akira Toriyama's style. You can tell when the new writers for DBS are depicting him very differently.

I'm not disagreeing for the sake of it. Saying I do implies I don't hold these views and just say this because I get kicks out of disagreeing which is so not the case. In fact, I did agree when I thought Goku had developed, but it's not often, certainly not in the Cell arc which let's face it only happened because he wanted a fight. Goku isn't a vastly different character from the beginning to the end of the manga, but with more experience by the end. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the rest of the post. Now if you want to talk about the series, great, if you want to talk about my idiosyncrasies or supposed shortcomings, this isn't the place.

I'm glad Goku is reinstated as the hero of the story, but given the inconsistencies of how he's written in this arc and the overall lack of quality in the Buu arc, I can't say this is the best version of the character. I'd still have to go with Dragon Ball. He was at his most fun and endearing. His laughter when Murasaki lands butt first on Nyoibo is awesome.

[TheMikado]

Man, you're on a roll. You disagree with everything for the sake of it. I would advise you to stop with the contrarian attitude. In any case, Goku is not a character that writes himself with the logic of in-universe aging. He's been written by someone who has aged in real life, and so it's not impossible for him to have matured as an extension of Akira Toriyama's style. You can tell when the new writers for DBS are depicting him very differently.

I'm not disagreeing for the sake of it. Saying I do implies I don't hold these views and just say this because I get kicks out of disagreeing which is so not the case. In fact, I did agree when I thought Goku had developed, but it's not often, certainly not in the Cell arc which let's face it only happened because he wanted a fight. Goku isn't a vastly different character from the beginning to the end of the manga, but with more experience by the end. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the rest of the post. Now if you want to talk about the series, great, if you want to talk about my idiosyncrasies or supposed shortcomings, this isn't the place.

I'm glad Goku is reinstated as the hero of the story, but given the inconsistencies of how he's written in this arc and the overall lack of quality in the Buu arc, I can't say this is the best version of the character. I'd still have to go with Dragon Ball. He was at his most fun and endearing. His laughter when Murasaki lands butt first on Nyoibo is awesome.

Wait what? No, was far more reckless and pretty much in the beginning of Z it was ALWAYS up to Goku to stop the bad guys by his own choice, He declined Roshi and Krillins help for Raditz stating they can't be revived. He intended to fight Vegeta and Nappa on his own and did the same thing on Namek with EVERY opponent he faced. From the Ginyu force and Ginyu, to frieza himself. In the Cell games we see him acknowledging that others can contribute to the fight and exceed his own expectations, further we see in the Buu arc Goku realizing that just because he has the power to take care of a situation DOESN'T MEAN THAT HE SHOULD. He did this multiple times in Buu arc, from not pounding Vegeta to a pulp with SSJ3 to letting the kids and Gohan take on Buu. Goku could have asked old kai to not waste time on Gohan and unlock Goku's potential. The problem is Super's Goku seems like the type who would act like that.

[ABED]

Wait what? No, was far more reckless and pretty much in the beginning of Z it was ALWAYS up to Goku to stop the bad guys by his own choice, He declined Roshi and Krillins help for Raditz stating they can't be revived. He intended to fight Vegeta and Nappa on his own and did the same thing on Namek with EVERY opponent he faced. From the Ginyu force and Ginyu, to frieza himself. In the Cell games we see him acknowledging that others can contribute to the fight and exceed his own expectations, further we see in the Buu arc Goku realizing that just because he has the power to take care of a situation DOESN'T MEAN THAT HE SHOULD. He did this multiple times in Buu arc, from not pounding Vegeta to a pulp with SSJ3 to letting the kids and Gohan take on Buu. Goku could have asked old kai to not waste time on Gohan and unlock Goku's potential. The problem is Super's Goku seems like the type who would act like that.

I disagree wholeheartedly with this assessment. Him fighting Vegeta on his own had something to do with wanting to fight one on one as a martial artist, but it was mainly for his Kuririn and Gohan's safety. If they were there, they could get hurt or just in the way. Kuririn even says as much. It's only when Goku was in iminant danger that they came back and them being there from the start wouldn't have stopped it. Vegeta was too powerful. And when did he say others can contribute? Gohan was the only one that could defeat Cell, which is why he chose Gohan to fight. This isn't a controversial point, Goku was reckless in letting the Cyborgs be created. He knew when and where they would arrive, but he chose not to act because he wanted a fight.

The Super Saiyan 3 thing was a retcon. And Goku might say he thinks the living should take care of the living world's problems, but he goes back on that fairly quickly when things get bad enough. Goku was not more reckless when he fought Vegeta or Nappa or the Ginyu Force by himself. When the Saiyans arrived, it was against his will. He let the Cyborgs arrive for the sake of a fight. He explicitly says so.

[Marco Polo]

Saiyans' prime lasting longer than humans is something that Toriyama made Vegeta say in the Uub chapters, the very last "arc" of the manga. It was never mentioned before that, because it's a detail that Toriyama hadn't invented yet.

In other words, one can basically consider that the Saiyan characters were ageing normally up until Toriyama retconned their ageing process to make them stay young in the manga's epilogue.

[ABED]

Saiyans' prime lasting longer than humans is something that Toriyama made Vegeta say in the Uub chapters, the very last "arc" of the manga. It was never mentioned before that, because it's a detail that Toriyama hadn't invented yet.

In other words, one can basically consider that the Saiyan characters were ageing normally up until Toriyama retconned their ageing process to make them stay young in the manga's epilogue.

Would you apply that logic to Goku not going Super Saiyan 3 against Vegeta?

And after Goku becomes an adult, he more or less looks the same. The only difference is a result of Toriyama's changing art style.

[Rubens]

Upon reading reading the manga, I honestly feel that Boo arc Goku was quite different from the previous arcs; although in Cell arc he was most of the time a background character - he got sick while (even before) fighting #19 and then he was training in the RoSaT - his absence during most of the action makes it difficult to recognize any relevant changes to his personality. By the end of said arc, it gives a whole feel that it is the end; indeed the author intended to end Dragon Ball at the time.

In my opinion, by comparing Boo arc Goku with Saiyan and Freeza arcs Goku, you notice Boo arc Goku to be most of the time very solemn and apathetic, an sometimes even bitter. It only pleases me seeing Goku in the beggining when he reencounters his friends at the tournament grounds and later when the elder Kaioshin gave his life so Goku could return to earth to fight Boo: the whole events envolving those battles displayed a more "in the character" Goku.
In Super, I dare to say that Toriyama is trying to recover that childish, naive, fun Goku from the early Dragon Ball (the same essence the show seems to try to capture), so yes, he's different from Boo arc.

In conclusion, I strongly disagree being considered "the best version" because of that insconsistency of his personality during that arc.

[kinisking]

Boo saga had the best characterization for ALL the characters imo.

[kinisking]

I would say that at the end of the Cell arc and through most of the Boo arc, Goku was trying to come to grips with 2 ideas.

A. That he attracts danger
and
B. That he will die someday and not come back

But in the Boo arc, I think he comes to realize that danger keeps coming, no matter what, and he almost starts to realize in a not-break-the-4th-wall way that he is the main character and is still going to be around a long time. i think that is why we see a reversion in Super to more how he acted on Namek and earlier.

Yeah he left his sons and the living to deal with the problem yet he still ended up saving the day. Again. Plus he is alive post Buu. Goku acting like how he does in Super is how I'd expect him to act post Buu especially now with all the God stuff.

We'll if he saved his sons they could have easily gotten rid of kid boo themselves. But he kind of left them to die

[TheMikado]

So after yesterday's episode the Goku from Super may officially be the worse Goku ever especially following the Buu arc Goku... Like you're investigating a possible multi universe apocalyptic threat. Why in the world would you antagonize that for a sparring match????

[ABED]

Why in the world would you antagonize that for a sparring match????

Goku and his friends are always doing that.

[TheMikado]

Why in the world would you antagonize that for a sparring match????

Goku and his friends are always doing that.

Wait what? after the ramifications of Frieza coming to earth after they messed with him, not destroying the androids when they should, Vegeta letting Cell become perfect and causing Buu to be resurrected. After all the dumb crap they did and the character arc of realizing they were responsible for it, especially in the Buu arc this isn't a they do it all the time thing. In Z the last thing the characters realize is that their actions do carry weight to the ones they love and they can't just do what ever they want... Ugh that's why Super is sooooooo frustrated. They were past this years ago.

[ABED]

Why in the world would you antagonize that for a sparring match????

Goku and his friends are always doing that.

Wait what? after the ramifications of Frieza coming to earth after they messed with him, not destroying the androids when they should, Vegeta letting Cell become perfect and causing Buu to be resurrected. After all the dumb crap they did and the character arc of realizing they were responsible for it, especially in the Buu arc this isn't a they do it all the time thing. In Z the last thing the characters realize is that their actions do carry weight to the ones they love and they can't just do what ever they want... Ugh that's why Super is sooooooo frustrated. They were past this years ago.

They never didn't know they responsible. These aren't superheroes out to save the world.