Mystic and Super Saiyan... One last time

[Cetra]

If gohan being mystic is being retconned now

Gohan never lost his Ultimate Power Up. That is just a fan excuse now that he uses SSJ and wondered if he can turn SSJ against Freeza's soldiers.

[rereboy]

If gohan being mystic is being retconned now

Gohan never lost his Ultimate Power Up. That is just a fan excuse now that he uses SSJ and wondered if he can turn SSJ against Freeza's soldiers.

And yet Piccolo is a better choice than him now? At least losing his ultimate state would somewhat explain it. As it stands it's just a gaping logical hole.

[Anime Kitten]

This is an honest off-topic question: Was it ever explicitly stated that Ultimate Gohan can't go Super Saiyan?

[rereboy]

This is an honest off-topic question: Was it ever explicitly stated that Ultimate Gohan can't go Super Saiyan?

Explicitly stated, no.

What we have is Old Kaioshin saying to Gohan: "Try to transform into that SSJ thing and add a Kiai" or something like that, and Gohan gets into his Ultimate state.

Whether he can still go SSJ (since going Ultimate is so similar to going SSJ apparently), is something left unanswered, but we do know that there is absolutely no point in going SSJ as long as Ultimate is available because Ultimate is described as being better in every way. So, it's simply not logical for Gohan to go SSJ when he has Ultimate.

[Anime Kitten]

If Ultimate is a permanent form, then going SSJ gives him a power boost, no?
If it's not permanent, then it's the same thing as using SSJ when the more efficient SSJ2 is available.

[Cetra]

If gohan being mystic is being retconned now

Gohan never lost his Ultimate Power Up. That is just a fan excuse now that he uses SSJ and wondered if he can turn SSJ against Freeza's soldiers.

And yet Piccolo is a better choice than him now? At least losing his ultimate state would somewhat explain it. As it stands it's just a gaping logical hole.

And who says an always training Piccolo cannot be stronger than a maybe weakened Ultimate Gohan? In a world were a Freeza can easily be above God Tier?

If Ultimate is a permanent form, then going SSJ gives him a power boost, no?
If it's not permanent, then it's the same thing as using SSJ when the more efficient SSJ2 is available.

Ultimate is not just permanent. Gohan can also power up with this Godly Gift to get stronger. He did it against Super Boo for example. Not that it means his Base did also not get stronger but he definitely can use the Godly Gift through powering up.

This is an honest off-topic question: Was it ever explicitly stated that Ultimate Gohan can't go Super Saiyan?

The exact opposite was implied actually. Goku wants to know if he and Gohan should fuse as Super Saiyajin. People just ignore that line.

[rereboy]

If Ultimate is a permanent form, then going SSJ gives him a power boost, no?
If it's not permanent, then it's the same thing as using SSJ when the more efficient SSJ2 is available.

The Ultimate power up is described as an alternate way to access power.

In other words, Gohan used to access power with transformations (SSJ transformations). And Old Kaioshin basically said: "transformations, huh? Bah, that's just inefficient and a whole lot just for show. I have a way for you to access that same power up to your limits, and even surpass them, in a much more efficient and much less stressful way".

The Ultimate state can't be cumulated with the SSJ transformations because the Ultimate state is just a better way to access his power.

And who says an always training Piccolo cannot be stronger than a maybe weakened Ultimate Gohan? In a world were a Freeza can easily be above God Tier?

A "weakened Ultimate Gohan" would imply that he is losing his Ultimate power up, which is an assumption just like assuming that he already lost the Ultimate state. So, you are doing exactly the same as the ones who say he lost it completely.

As for a non-weakened Ultimate Gohan, since it's been just a couple years from the end of the Buu saga, since Piccolo has not undergone any new extraordinary training or fusion, since Piccolo was weaker than the basic SSJs in the Buu saga, it's logic "who" says that it "cannot be stronger".

As for Freeza, at least there was an attempt to explain it by saying that he just had never trained before.

The exact opposite was implied actually. Goku wants to know if he and Gohan should fuse as Super Saiyajin. People just ignore that line.

You have no way to know if Goku was talking just about himself as a SSJ. That's why people "just ignore it".

[Cetra]

A "weakened Ultimate Gohan" would imply that he is losing his Ultimate power up, which is an assumption just like assuming that he already lost the Ultimate state. So, you are doing exactly the same as the ones who say he lost it completely.

First of all: I do not assume that. I just mention a lot of possibilities that can be assumed. Also, getting weaker or worse (depending on what we are talking about) does not mean that he is actually losing his power up, just that he is "losing a portion of it". Also, the mere fact that Gohan has access to a great deal of power very efficiently with this gift is something that I would never imply he would lose, and that is an aspect of this godly gift as well. So yes, even if he would get a bit weaker that is not the same as really losing it. I could agree with you about the "losing" to an extent in a certain context but that is not really what I am talking about.

As for Freeza, at least there was an attempt to explain it by saying that he just had never trained before.

Which we know is wrong because he had to invent his 3 sub-forms. And how did he do that? Buy them on ebay? He had to go through some process as well. So he had to do some, let's call it "supression training".

You have no way to know if Goku was talking just about himself as a SSJ. That's why people "just ignore it".

If I ask if we would fuse as Super Saiyajin I do not just talk about myself. And I am sure Goku did not mean it as "Should we fuse as Super Saiyajin and by should we I mean I turn Super Saiyajin and Gohan as Ultimate because he cannot turn Super Saiyajin anymore because of his Ultimate State because the fans of Dragon Ball Z say that Gohan is the strongest unfused character ever and he can even play all kinds of instruments and is the best all over the world". But this leads to nothing as it is the same Gohan argument all over again. Also, what kind of excuse is that? You do not know how the only hint is meant so you ignore the hint and just say as a fan "he cannot"? That is not good at all. But I am out.

[Anime Kitten]

This is an interesting discussion; would you guys like to move it to another thread, so as to get this one back on-topic?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

This is an interesting discussion; would you guys like to move it to another thread, so as to get this one back on-topic?

Taken care of. I split the posts off into what seemed like the most appropriate and current version of a Gohan SS/Ultimate topic.

[Desassina]

It's as simple as this: if Gohan could use SSJ on top of his Ultimate state, wouldn't he have done so against Gotenks Boo? Goku asked if they needed to fuse as SSJ, because Gohan's SSJ form didn't go anywhere. It's just that it got switched out for his Ultimate form, which Gohan could use in Battle of Gods, and had trouble tapping into in DBS' adaptation of RoF. He switched SSJ back on to gain more power, but on top of his regular state, and not Ultimate.

[Rubens]

Once again, sorry about joining late at a discussion.
I'll try to sumarize as much as possible my theory regarding the super saiyan 3 form.

It has something to do with potential energy; potential energy consists, essencially, in the full ammount of energy the super saiyan has to spare, or their energy reservoir - it has to do with how long they can stay transformed and how much energy they spend in total. The 2nd and 3rd grade subforms access part of that potential energy - hence the loss stamina (heightened with the "ultra" subform). A full powered (or mastered) super saiyan minimizes that loss of stamina, which enables him to harness more of that potential energy and increase his maximum power.

As a super saiyan 2 is a whole new level of the transformation, providing even more potential energy, but with extended energy loss and harder to harness. The form Vegeta used against Beerus could be some sort of 2nd grade form of ssj2, which accessed a big part of his potential energy thus surpassing Goku (the movie's "Rageta" did pretty much the same, but without transforming).

Therefore, I believe the super saiyan 3 form works, to a certain extent, like the 2nd grade (ascended) subform and the enraged form of Vegeta: it completly harnesses all of that potential energy of the entire super saiyan transformation, translating it into a a new level of super saiyan, with a huge toll on their stamina.

By this, it's easier to understand how Gotenks goes straight from ssj to ssj3: individually, they don't have enough potential energy to reach ssj3, while their fusion has tons of it.

Finally, Gohan: since he achieved ssj2 and has massive potential energy, the elder Kaio-shin allowed him to access that said potential energy without the need to transform, making him as strong as a ssj3, conceiding him a form do just that.

http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v41/c302/4.html

As suggested in that page, turning "Ultimate/Mystic" is not exactly the same as turning Super Saiyan. In Battle of Gods he possibly was still able to tranform willingly into super saiyan for the ritual and there was nothing that prevented him from doing soat the time. With the lack of training, it's possible he lost the capability to access his "ultimate" form without transforming: so the only way he has left to access it is to simply... transform into ssj.

[Desassina]

Wow, I didn't notice that this thread had two subjects. I bet that Vegeta not having SSJ3 is more of a style choice than some in-universe limitation, although we could relate that to the form needing special conditions. It has only been achieved by a dead person and a fused entity, and it doesn't look good on Vegeta. Copy Vegeta was, at least, interesting enough to warrant a fight.

[sintzu]

We could relate that to the form needing special conditions. It has only been achieved by a dead person and a fused entity.

It doesn't look good on Vegeta.

Toriyama said Ssj3 is nothing more than a powered up version of Ssj so if a Saiyan is strong enough they can use it and we know for a fact that Vegeta is far beyond what's required to use it so if he wanted to he could.

Maybe Toriyama thinks that as well.

[Red-Eye]

Gohan's "ultimate" state is just him reaching the level of Super Saiyan without actually transforming.

[Desassina]

Toriyama said Ssj3 is nothing more than a powered up version of Ssj so if a Saiyan is strong enough they can use it and we know for a fact that Vegeta is far beyond what's required to use it so if he wanted to he could.

I don't agree with Toriyama's own words on the subject. If he said that, then there should be no SSJ3 Goku against Trunks, nor a SSJ2 against Goku Black. I prefer to take clues from his work, which has to go through the editors and a production team, than his words on an interview.

In my opinion, Vegeta is like a car that can go up to the same speed as another that has one more gear, which is SSJ3. Goku gets the best gas mileage, because Vegeta has to increase his rotations per minute to get the same speed, and that wastes gas like Vegeta went back to base in BoG (very quickly).

[sintzu]

I don't agree with Toriyama's own words on the subject...

It's his story so what he says goes weather we agree with it or not.

If he says Ssj2 & Ssj3 are powered up versions of Ssj1 then that's what they are.

[Desassina]

No, that's not how it works, because his words won't replace the product itself. DB Super is his story, after all.

I almost regret having started the post with that, because I knew that people would focus on that, and ignore what seemed to be a good theory.

[sintzu]

I knew that people would focus on that, and ignore what seemed to be a good theory.

That's all it was though, a theory, like everything else regarding Ssj3 before Toriyama cleared it up.

The author's word will always be taken into account over any theory, regardless of it being good or not.

[ssj4nick]

Reading the japanese anime translated script :

Goku : " By looking at you , you haven't changed all that much ! You ain't even Super Saiyan , yet you've come to this extreme !?"
Old Kaiōshin : " It's not as though he has to transform ! That super-whatever-thing is depraved !"

By reading this , in terms of script I get that he can go super saiyan, but that is not needed beacause he has surpassed it in base form.

Now how is that related with Gohan losing his powers from old Kaiōshin ?

1. Theory number one is investigating things clearly by... let's call it "a lore point of view" focusing only on the interior of the manga/anime : Gohan had to be training in order to maintain this power ,he didn't do it and he lost it , although he could regain it if he retrained. So the power up he can still do is SSJ.

2.Theory number two is looking at things from the point of franchise marketing. Toriyama decided to drop Gohan as the main protagonist in the Buu saga probably because Goku was still the most popular character in manga polls. So after the end of the series he had to put Gohan in another role , and having him so overpowered (surpassing SSJ3 Goku) wouldn't help that. So he decided to just omit his Old Kaiōshin powerup without explaining anything. I would guess that if someone asked him in an interview he would say something similar to theory number one I wrote, or maybe he just forgot !

Your thoughts on these theories ?