Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Was it SSJ2 or is this another Super Saiyan but with sparks confusion? That seemed to happen when he fought Black and in the preview for the next episode you see it again.

[Alruneia]

Was it SSJ2 or is this another Super Saiyan but with sparks confusion? That seemed to happen when he fought Black and in the preview for the next episode you see it again.

The hair checked out as SSJ2. I didn't notice if they forgot the 2 at all this episode, unlike when he fought Black and his hair was SSJ1 at some points.

The statement about SSJ2 powering Goku up to several dozen times base strength kills the Base = God idea. Super Saiyan = God should be fine, though, as far as I can tell.

[LightBing]

Why is this thread so quiet? We finally got what most people wanted, an actual power comparison.

The power scale in this arc is very well mapped actually.
In this arc there's no God shenanigans going on. Goku's a SSJ2 here, he was against Black and against Trunks. Therefore Trunks is also at SSJ2 level. Black is in the SSJ3 realm.
The U7 Kaioshin comparison, allows us to suggest this.

Whis appears to be using Super Saiyan as a term for every iteration of the form. Seems pretty clear Goku's a SSJ2 here.

By the way allow me to be pedantic, 12 isn't a multiple of 100, the Daizenshuu multiplier for SSJ2. I'm just saying...

[Alruneia]

Why is this thread so quiet? We finally got what most people wanted, an actual power comparison.

The power scale in this arc is very well mapped actually.
In this arc there's no God shenanigans going on. Goku's a SSJ2 here, he was against Black and against Trunks. Therefore Trunks is also at SSJ2 level. Black is in the SSJ3 realm.
The U7 Kaioshin comparison, allows us to suggest this.

Whis appears to be using Super Saiyan as a term for every iteration of the form. Seems pretty clear Goku's a SSJ2 here.

By the way allow me to be pedantic, 12 isn't a multiple of 100, the Daizenshuu multiplier for SSJ2. I'm just saying...

Well, it's four dozen and two for SSJ1 and eight dozen and four for SSJ2. Good enough.
Also, aren't the forums pretty quiet in general at this time of day?

[LightBing]

Why is this thread so quiet? We finally got what most people wanted, an actual power comparison.

The power scale in this arc is very well mapped actually.
In this arc there's no God shenanigans going on. Goku's a SSJ2 here, he was against Black and against Trunks. Therefore Trunks is also at SSJ2 level. Black is in the SSJ3 realm.
The U7 Kaioshin comparison, allows us to suggest this.

Whis appears to be using Super Saiyan as a term for every iteration of the form. Seems pretty clear Goku's a SSJ2 here.

By the way allow me to be pedantic, 12 isn't a multiple of 100, the Daizenshuu multiplier for SSJ2. I'm just saying...

Well, it's four dozen and two for SSJ1 and eight dozen and four for SSJ2. Good enough.
Also, aren't the forums pretty quiet in general at this time of day?

Yeah it's no big deal, people tend to cut corners or straight up ignore lines. Like Piccolo Daimao using less than half power to school Goku. Still, math is math and Zamasu correct himself from several times to dozens times; from ambiguous to specific.

It's a bit calm, not significantly thou. It is summer. Usually people comment here immediately after the episode airs. Looking at the episode thread, I'm surprised nobody came here, quite a few people saw it.

[TheMikado]

I'm quiet because I honestly have no idea what it means. I'm not even sure whether it was supposed to be SS1 or 2. The comment made implies the first SSJ multiplier of 50x. Several dozen 12x4 = 48 is a nice approximate of the 50x multiplier but everything we've seen says that the multiplier isn't that great. Specifically I'm thinking of Goku vs Frost which would imply Piccolo is at least stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and but a decent margin. Otherwise Goku would have to have beaten Frost to like less than 5% of Frost power which also seems like a stretch... Anyway just trying to rationalize how strong Piccolo actual is if the SSJ multiplier and by extension the Frieza race multiplier is actually still in tack.

[Chiki]

I'm personally waiting for the big bombshell next ep, in which Goku's powers in Base and SSB will most likely be confirmed judging from the next ep preview.

One thing though: Base Goku, who is much stronger than BoG SS3 Goku and SS3 Gotenks, gets several dozens of times stronger when he goes SS2. So the one base theory crowd keeps having to change their theory. At first, it was Base Goku is SSJ3 tier. Then it was Base Goku is SSG tier. Now it's Base Goku is 100x weaker than SSG but still somehow stronger than SS3 Gotenks and SS3 Goku and strong enough to fight against Beerus in Monaka's costume. Lol

[Bullza]

Well it's always something that's been made unclear. As the show has progressed it's been narrowed down.

We know that Base is much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and we now know that Base is 1/50th as strong as Super Saiyan. If Super Saiyan is still as strong as Super Saiyan God then Base would be about 1/50th of that.

That was something I said ages ago but then changed my mind on it but now I have to come back to it again. Perhaps Base Goku and Vegeta are Buutenks-Buuhan level.

[apex_pretador]

Was it SSJ2 or is this another Super Saiyan but with sparks confusion? That seemed to happen when he fought Black and in the preview for the next episode you see it again.

I'm almost sure that was SS2. It lines perfectly with:
1. Black fight
2. Hair-style
3. Sparks (weren't momentarily only) which continued to show till they fought
4. Can be referred as "super saiyan" as it's just a powered up variation of SS.

[ssbgoku]

Awesome episode, and finally some stuff which can make power level more consistent ;p. I just wonder how strong is Zamasu...
It also retconned base goku/vegeta = ssg level, which make u6 a bit weaker at least.

So base goku/vegeta are at least above base vegetto/buuhan but weaker then ss vegetto. However it makes questions as:
1) is current ss3 goku being stronger then ssg ?
2) is ssg goku back then as strong as ss goku now ?
3) Is Zamasu above 10% of beerus ?, or at least enraged vegeta ?

I have:

base - 20% of ss vegetto
ss - 10% of ss2 vegetto
ss2 - 20% of ss2 vegetto
ss3 - 80% of ss2 vegetto
ssg - ?
ssb - 8 in god scale.

[apex_pretador]

Awesome episode, and finally some stuff which can make power level more consistent ;p. I just wonder how strong is Zamasu...
It also retconned base goku/vegeta = ssg level, which make u6 a bit weaker at least.

So base goku/vegeta are at least above base vegetto/buuhan but weaker then ss vegetto. However it makes questions as:
1) is current ss3 goku being stronger then ssg ?
2) is ssg goku back then as strong as ss goku now ?
3) Is Zamasu above 10% of beerus ?, or at least enraged vegeta ?

I have:

base - 20% of ss vegetto
ss - 10% of ss2 vegetto
ss2 - 20% of ss2 vegetto
ss3 - 80% of ss2 vegetto
ssg - ?
ssb - 8 in god scale.

10$ beerus and enraged vegeta aren't even comparable.
10% beerus and SSG goku are closer.

[Bullza]

It also retconned base goku/vegeta = ssg level

Technically nothing specifically said they were anyway. We knew they were vastly more powerful than before but I suppose we falsely assumed they were SSJG level in base.

If Super Saiyan in the BoG arc was equal to Super Saiyan God then the current Super Saiyan should exceed that and SSJ2 and SSJ3 should be even greater.

[ssbgoku]

Ok, guys call me crazy but I decided to compare dragon ball super characters to dragon ball z characters using vegetto as meassuring stick. So please hold on until the very end before you reply ;p.

First, let's try to set mulitplier number for super Saiyan god transformation, because Akira has set multiplier at every transformation. We know that ssg goku at 80% was already above ss3 vegetto from buu arc. The scenario where with the greatest favor in dbs direction, and for that we will use bog ss3 goku, ultimate gohan, buutenks, buuhan and base vegetto how they compare. We know that at least ss3 goku is ultimate gohan level, but most likely above in the battle of gods arc. Now to meassure base vegetto we have to make him at least 4-5 times stronger then buuhan. If we make buuhan 3 times stronger then ultimate gohan, with buutenks being 2 times stronger then ultimate gohan. I put base vegetto on par with ss3 gotenks from buu saga, so we get:

base vegetto ~ half of ss3 gotenks
2x base vegetto ~ ss3 gotenks/bog ss3 goku
2 x bog ss3 goku ~ ultimate gohan
4 x bog ss3 goku ~ buutenks
5 x bog ss3 goku ~ enraged vegeta
6 x bog ss3 goku ~ buuhan
25 x bog ss3 goku ~ ss vegetto
50 x bog ss3 goku ~ ss2 vegetto
200 x bog ss3 goku ~ ss3 vegetto
300 x bog ss3 goku ~ ssg goku

Based on this, we can deduce everyone's power. rof base goku called Mr. buu crazy strong while enraged which means base goku was ss3 bog tier. u6 base goku/vegeta could be ultimate gohan level or close to it, based how minimal gain they were getting from training in rosat. copy water arc base goku/vegeta could be reach buutenks or being close to it, at the most buuhan. I will assume buutenks as the minimum, and based as black arc didn't show goku or vegeta training, but it should be same.

Black goku arc :
base goku/vegeta ~ buutenks
1.5 x base goku/vegeta ~ buuhan
6.25 x base goku/vegeta ~ ss vegetto
12.5 x base goku/vegeta ~ ss2 vegetto
ss goku/vegeta ~ ss3 vegetto
ssj2 goku/vegeta ~ 2 x ssj3 vegetto
ssj3 goku ~ 8 x ssj3 vegetto
ssg goku ~ 2400 x ssj3 vegetto

I assume that ss2 goku was holding back at least 90%, so at the most he was around 10% while sparring with trunks. 50% of ss2 goku is equal to ss goku. It gives us ss2 trunks being equal to 10 x base goku/vegeta, sounds ridiculous and I really try to put ss2 trunks at least below ss vegetto from buu arc but it is hard if we go by dbs leaving dbz in dust...

so Zamasu could be above ss3 vegetto but not too much above him. Final from frost could be easily ss vegetto level or on par with him, as ss goku in u6 was weaker then current one but not so much, however goku was also holding back against him.

botamo ~ Mr. buu
base cabba - ss3 goku from buu arc
First form frost - fat buu
Third form frost - ss3 gotenks
Final form forst - above buutenks a bit
ss cabba with rage boost - buuhan
magenta - ss vegetto or below
hit - obviously at least above ss2 vegetto

Also to add, I am only basing it on manga, not anime: so hit manga battle as I don't consider hit battle in anime as cannon. So keeping in mind god scale also ssg multiplier is no joke... Also I am interested in your opinion, so let discuss ;p

[TheMikado]

^edit- where do you put Piccolo?

[buutenks]

Ok, guys call me crazy but I decided to compare dragon ball super characters to dragon ball z characters using vegetto as meassuring stick. So please hold on until the very end before you reply ;p.

First, let's try to set mulitplier number for super Saiyan god transformation, because Akira has set multiplier at every transformation. We know that ssg goku at 80% was already above ss3 vegetto from buu arc. The scenario where with the greatest favor in dbs direction, and for that we will use bog ss3 goku, ultimate gohan, buutenks, buuhan and base vegetto how they compare. We know that at least ss3 goku is ultimate gohan level, but most likely above in the battle of gods arc. Now to meassure base vegetto we have to make him at least 4-5 times stronger then buuhan. If we make buuhan 3 times stronger then ultimate gohan, with buutenks being 2 times stronger then ultimate gohan. I put base vegetto on par with ss3 gotenks from buu saga, so we get:

base vegetto ~ half of ss3 gotenks
2x base vegetto ~ ss3 gotenks/bog ss3 goku
2 x bog ss3 goku ~ ultimate gohan
4 x bog ss3 goku ~ buutenks
5 x bog ss3 goku ~ enraged vegeta
6 x bog ss3 goku ~ buuhan
25 x bog ss3 goku ~ ss vegetto
50 x bog ss3 goku ~ ss2 vegetto
200 x bog ss3 goku ~ ss3 vegetto
300 x bog ss3 goku ~ ssg goku

Based on this, we can deduce everyone's power. rof base goku called Mr. buu crazy strong while enraged which means base goku was ss3 bog tier. u6 base goku/vegeta could be ultimate gohan level or close to it, based how minimal gain they were getting from training in rosat. copy water arc base goku/vegeta could be reach buutenks or being close to it, at the most buuhan. I will assume buutenks as the minimum, and based as black arc didn't show goku or vegeta training, but it should be same.

Black goku arc :
base goku/vegeta ~ buutenks
1.5 x base goku/vegeta ~ buuhan
6.25 x base goku/vegeta ~ ss vegetto
12.5 x base goku/vegeta ~ ss2 vegetto
ss goku/vegeta ~ ss3 vegetto
ssj2 goku/vegeta ~ 2 x ssj3 vegetto
ssj3 goku ~ 8 x ssj3 vegetto
ssg goku ~ 2400 x ssj3 vegetto

I assume that ss2 goku was holding back at least 90%, so at the most he was around 10% while sparring with trunks. 50% of ss2 goku is equal to ss goku. It gives us ss2 trunks being equal to 10 x base goku/vegeta, sounds ridiculous and I really try to put ss2 trunks at least below ss vegetto from buu arc but it is hard if we go by dbs leaving dbz in dust...

so Zamasu could be above ss3 vegetto but not too much above him. Final from frost could be easily ss vegetto level or on par with him, as ss goku in u6 was weaker then current one but not so much, however goku was also holding back against him.

botamo ~ Mr. buu
base cabba - ss3 goku from buu arc
First form frost - fat buu
Third form frost - ss3 gotenks
Final form forst - above buutenks a bit
ss cabba with rage boost - buuhan
magenta - ss vegetto or below
hit - obviously at least above ss2 vegetto

Also to add, I am only basing it on manga, not anime: so hit manga battle as I don't consider hit battle in anime as cannon. So keeping in mind god scale also ssg multiplier is no joke... Also I am interested in your opinion, so let discuss ;p

OMG u nerfed Hit...

Stil, how can Hit be only atleast above ss2 vegetto, when IIRC in the manga he was still above ssj goku and was able to stop ssg goku till, goku went blue and overpowered him.

So Hit is definitely leagues above ssj3 vegetto according to your PL list.

Also i like the anime, since it makes Hit be a total monster hehe ^^

[ssbgoku]

^edit- where do you put Piccolo?

Picoolo could be below base goku/vegeta and since they seem to power up a bit in copy arc , then u6 them being ultimate gohan or a little bit. Picoolo is could be ss3 gotenks... or above ss2 gotenks which is ridiculous but it seems so

[ssbgoku]

Ok, guys call me crazy but I decided to compare dragon ball super characters to dragon ball z characters using vegetto as meassuring stick. So please hold on until the very end before you reply ;p.

First, let's try to set mulitplier number for super Saiyan god transformation, because Akira has set multiplier at every transformation. We know that ssg goku at 80% was already above ss3 vegetto from buu arc. The scenario where with the greatest favor in dbs direction, and for that we will use bog ss3 goku, ultimate gohan, buutenks, buuhan and base vegetto how they compare. We know that at least ss3 goku is ultimate gohan level, but most likely above in the battle of gods arc. Now to meassure base vegetto we have to make him at least 4-5 times stronger then buuhan. If we make buuhan 3 times stronger then ultimate gohan, with buutenks being 2 times stronger then ultimate gohan. I put base vegetto on par with ss3 gotenks from buu saga, so we get:

base vegetto ~ half of ss3 gotenks
2x base vegetto ~ ss3 gotenks/bog ss3 goku
2 x bog ss3 goku ~ ultimate gohan
4 x bog ss3 goku ~ buutenks
5 x bog ss3 goku ~ enraged vegeta
6 x bog ss3 goku ~ buuhan
25 x bog ss3 goku ~ ss vegetto
50 x bog ss3 goku ~ ss2 vegetto
200 x bog ss3 goku ~ ss3 vegetto
300 x bog ss3 goku ~ ssg goku

Based on this, we can deduce everyone's power. rof base goku called Mr. buu crazy strong while enraged which means base goku was ss3 bog tier. u6 base goku/vegeta could be ultimate gohan level or close to it, based how minimal gain they were getting from training in rosat. copy water arc base goku/vegeta could be reach buutenks or being close to it, at the most buuhan. I will assume buutenks as the minimum, and based as black arc didn't show goku or vegeta training, but it should be same.

Black goku arc :
base goku/vegeta ~ buutenks
1.5 x base goku/vegeta ~ buuhan
6.25 x base goku/vegeta ~ ss vegetto
12.5 x base goku/vegeta ~ ss2 vegetto
ss goku/vegeta ~ ss3 vegetto
ssj2 goku/vegeta ~ 2 x ssj3 vegetto
ssj3 goku ~ 8 x ssj3 vegetto
ssg goku ~ 2400 x ssj3 vegetto

I assume that ss2 goku was holding back at least 90%, so at the most he was around 10% while sparring with trunks. 50% of ss2 goku is equal to ss goku. It gives us ss2 trunks being equal to 10 x base goku/vegeta, sounds ridiculous and I really try to put ss2 trunks at least below ss vegetto from buu arc but it is hard if we go by dbs leaving dbz in dust...

so Zamasu could be above ss3 vegetto but not too much above him. Final from frost could be easily ss vegetto level or on par with him, as ss goku in u6 was weaker then current one but not so much, however goku was also holding back against him.

botamo ~ Mr. buu
base cabba - ss3 goku from buu arc
First form frost - fat buu
Third form frost - ss3 gotenks
Final form forst - above buutenks a bit
ss cabba with rage boost - buuhan
magenta - ss vegetto or below
hit - obviously at least above ss2 vegetto

Also to add, I am only basing it on manga, not anime: so hit manga battle as I don't consider hit battle in anime as cannon. So keeping in mind god scale also ssg multiplier is no joke... Also I am interested in your opinion, so let discuss ;p

OMG u nerfed Hit...

Stil, how can Hit be only atleast above ss2 vegetto, when IIRC in the manga he was still above ssj goku and was able to stop ssg goku till, goku went blue and overpowered him.

So Hit is definitely leagues above ssj3 vegetto according to your PL list.

Also i like the anime, since it makes Hit be a total monster hehe ^^

Oh shit you are right. Great eye i didnt notice it until you pointed it out. You are correct about it xd but even if we take base goku/vegeta being ultimate gohan buu arc assuming gohan and gotenks got a bit weaker in bog already then buu arc then:

Black goku arc :
base goku/vegeta ~ ultimate gohan buu arc
3x base goku/vegeta ~ buuhan
12.5 x base goku/vegeta ~ ss vegetto buu arc
25 x base goku/vegeta ~ ss2 vegetto buu arc
ss2 goku/vegeta ~ ss3 vegetto buu arc
ssj3 goku ~ 4 x ssj3 vegetto
ssg goku ~ 1200 x ssj3 vegetto

It also may be possible and would work. Picoolo could be ss gotenks buu arc. . but he should be below enraged mr buu which could be = fat buu

[TheMikado]

^edit- where do you put Piccolo?

Picoolo could be below base goku/vegeta and since they seem to power up a bit in copy arc , then u6 them being ultimate gohan or a little bit. Picoolo is could be ss3 gotenks... or above ss2 gotenks which is ridiculous but it seems so

Idk shouldn't base Goku be above SSJ3 Gotenks? If multipliers are still in tact which the last episode implies Final frost should be at least a few dozen times stronger than that. Let's assume Final Frost I half as powerful as SSJ Goku (>SSJ3 Gotenks X 50) Which even with a 50% half power Frost would be at least 10x stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

SSJ Goku 50xSSJ3 Gotenks
Final Frost 25xSSJ3 Gotenks
Weak Frost 12x SSJ3 Gotenks
Piccolo 5x SSJ3 Goku/Gotenks and 10x Stronger than Vegetto??????

This scaling if left in a vacuum seems reasonable to me with the exception of how it correlates to both the stories before and after it.

[Bullza]

But in the anime it still seems to suggest that Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God like the movie but unlike the manga.

So Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta should be stronger than SSJ3 Vegito.

I'm not sure if then Super Saiyan 2 is still as strong as that and Super Saiyan 3 four times as strong as that. Meaning SSJ3 Goku would be about 4 times (or more as he's trained) stronger than Super Saiyan God.

[Noah]

ssbgoku, your scalations are too far-fetched IHMO.