Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ssbgoku]

Without putting any numbers to anything, this is how I see the characters as ranking from strongest to weakest thus far.

Zeno

Vados
Whis

Beerus
Champa

Hit
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x 10

Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Golden Frieza

Black
Super Saiyan 3 Goku

Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks
Zamasu

Super Saiyan Goku
Super Saiyan Vegeta
Super Saiyan Cabba
Super Saiyan Trunks
Magetta
Super Saiyan God Goku
Final Form Frost

Goku
Vegeta
Cabba
Trunks
Final Form Frieza

Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta
Ultimate Gohan
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
First Form Frieza

Super Saiyan Gohan
Mr Buu
Super Saiyan Kid Trunks

Gohan
Piccolo
Tagoma

hit being above kaioken x10 ssb ?, that is ridiculous when even beerus was worried about it. No way, that why I am trying to forget hit battle in anime, manga battle much make more sense even if it was not flashed as anime one.

[Noah]

hit being above kaioken x10 ssb ?, that is ridiculous when even beerus was worried about it. No way, that why I am trying to forget hit battle in anime, manga battle much make more sense even if it was not flashed as anime one.

Not as ridiculous as SSJ2 Trunks being way stronger than Ultimate Gohan without fighting with Boo or never being implicit to go through some kind of training.

[buutenks]

Without putting any numbers to anything, this is how I see the characters as ranking from strongest to weakest thus far.

Zeno

Vados
Whis

Beerus
Champa

Hit
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x 10

Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Golden Frieza

Black
Super Saiyan 3 Goku

Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks
Zamasu

Super Saiyan Goku
Super Saiyan Vegeta
Super Saiyan Cabba
Super Saiyan Trunks
Magetta
Super Saiyan God Goku
Final Form Frost

Goku
Vegeta
Cabba
Trunks
Final Form Frieza

Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta
Ultimate Gohan
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
First Form Frieza

Super Saiyan Gohan
Mr Buu
Super Saiyan Kid Trunks

Gohan
Piccolo
Tagoma

Looks good. And ye anime hit is proly above kkx10 Goku, since he did manage to freeze him.

Quite insane how strong Hit got, from slightly below ssjblue to 10x stronger in a single fight.

Tho i would put, Zamasu above ssj2 trunks. Since i doubt Goku was trying his hardest vs trunks. While vs Zamasu he gave his all in ssj2 and i think what gave him an edge over Zamasu was the shock Zamasu got that someone like Goku is so strong.

hit being above kaioken x10 ssb ?, that is ridiculous when even beerus was worried about it. No way, that why I am trying to forget hit battle in anime, manga battle much make more sense even if it was not flashed as anime one.

Hit is that awesome ^^

[TheMikado]

Maybe I wasn't clear in why this is a so weird.
How can this possibly work?

Piccolo < SSJ Gohan < SSJ3 Gotenks < Base Goku < Piccolo < Weak Frost < Strong Frost < SSJ Goku

Considering how strong Goku is at greater than SSJ3 Gotenks levels how could Piccolo possibly leap frog that in a few days no RoSaT??

[ssbgoku]

hit being above kaioken x10 ssb ?, that is ridiculous when even beerus was worried about it. No way, that why I am trying to forget hit battle in anime, manga battle much make more sense even if it was not flashed as anime one.

Not as ridiculous as SSJ2 Trunks being way stronger than Ultimate Gohan without fighting with Boo or never being implicit to go through some kind of training.

That only if you go by anime which as I have wrote many times over and over make just some stuff at whim and to make everything more complicated/confused but focus more on flashy and attractive to eye elements. If you go by the manga, then there is no problem with it at all, as we know even ss goku is still much infferior to ssg, actually I mean bog movie from which manga advances after rof movie. To make it enjoyable and free of complicated/retarted stuff just follow this logic:

1) manga - cannon
2) anime extra scenes which doesn't contradict manga and reffer to event in manga - cannon
3) anime extra scenes which contradict manga and does reffer to event in manga - filler(extra stuff)
4) anime new arc which completly doesn't take place in manga - filler

It is just simple as that, and to make it more easy I will group some examples by these points above:

1) manga chapters
2) Goku using all form of ss, universal schockwaves(?), u6 tournament except hit battle since he began to improve
3) Kaioken x10 ssb
4) copy water arc.

So no copy water arc, no problem with that as neither base goku/vegeta are proved to be stronger then ss3 gotenks...

Maybe I wasn't clear in why this is a so weird.
How can this possibly work?

Piccolo < SSJ Gohan < SSJ3 Gotenks < Base Goku < Piccolo < Weak Frost < Strong Frost < SSJ Goku

Considering how strong Goku is at greater than SSJ3 Gotenks levels how could Piccolo possibly leap frog that in a few days no RoSaT??

That anime logic for you . Just go with flashy and appealing moves/show off at the price of consitency or any univese logic. Just go with what I wrote above and everything will be clear. IN the manga picoolo is just where he was, at the most super perfect cell level.

[TheMikado]

^ I've been saying for months that the manga is the way to go, but I was told the anime is considered the original work and the manga is secondary similar to how the anime was secondary to the manga. Therefore you can't adhere to the manga and not the anime because it's not the original work. Basically trying to reconcile it within the anime because the manga levels make perfect sense.

[GodKaio-Ken]

^ I've been saying for months that the manga is the way to go, but I was told the anime is considered the original work and the manga is secondary similar to how the anime was secondary to the manga. Therefore you can't adhere to the manga and not the anime because it's not the original work. Basically trying to reconcile it within the anime because the manga levels make perfect sense.

I would debate whoever said that.

Both are made from the same outline. It just so happens that the manga is on a monthly schedule while the anime is weekly. It's not like the anime writers do the story and then the manga writer watches and copies. They are doing their own thing based on material given to them by Toriyama.

In fact I've heard, unsure if true, that Toriyama actually works more closely with the manga. At worst I'd say they are equal in canon.

[ssbgoku]

^ I've been saying for months that the manga is the way to go, but I was told the anime is considered the original work and the manga is secondary similar to how the anime was secondary to the manga. Therefore you can't adhere to the manga and not the anime because it's not the original work. Basically trying to reconcile it within the anime because the manga levels make perfect sense.

Well but it was obvious or at least became more and more clear that with dragon ball super it will work same as it did with dragon ball manga and anime. I mean I always went by manga showdown and put it before anime. Anime extra added scenes which were connected to manga AND DID NOT CONTRADICT manga were welcome and accepted as cannon, however extra added scenes which CONTRADICTED manga were treated as filler, no original source. For example:

1) Anime showing all padding around ss vegetto vs buuhan are cannon
2) Anime showing base vegetto being close to buuhan is just filler as in the manga vegetto already turned ss.

now in super:

1) Anime showing hit being supperior to goku and constantly improving just like goku can be cannon
2) Anime showing goku using kaiokenx10 with ssb and hit being above it or at least not killed by it is filler as in the manga goku used ssg and got upperharnd over hit.

Simple as that. Difference about manga being behind anime proves nothing, as it is just monthly shedule now. Also Akira praises manga while does not praise anime but even pointed out some stuff he disliked... doesn't it light up in your head ?

[GodKaio-Ken]

^ I've been saying for months that the manga is the way to go, but I was told the anime is considered the original work and the manga is secondary similar to how the anime was secondary to the manga. Therefore you can't adhere to the manga and not the anime because it's not the original work. Basically trying to reconcile it within the anime because the manga levels make perfect sense.

Well but it was obvious or at least became more and more clear that with dragon ball super it will work same as it did with dragon ball manga and anime. I mean I always went by manga showdown and put it before anime. Anime extra added scenes which were connected to manga AND DID NOT CONTRADICT manga were welcome and accepted as cannon, however extra added scenes which CONTRADICTED manga were treated as filler, no original source. For example:

1) Anime showing all padding around ss vegetto vs buuhan are cannon
2) Anime showing base vegetto being close to buuhan is just filler as in the manga vegetto already turned ss.

now in super:

1) Anime showing hit being supperior to goku and constantly improving just like goku can be cannon
2) Anime showing goku using kaiokenx10 with ssb and hit being above it or at least not killed by it is filler as in the manga goku used ssg and got upperharnd over hit.

Simple as that. Difference about manga being behind anime proves nothing, as it is just monthly shedule now. Also Akira praises manga while does not praise anime but even pointed out some stuff he disliked... doesn't it light up in your head ?

In the manga it was pretty clear Goku > Hit. At least with the rules about killing being what they were.

[Chiki]

^ I've been saying for months that the manga is the way to go, but I was told the anime is considered the original work and the manga is secondary similar to how the anime was secondary to the manga. Therefore you can't adhere to the manga and not the anime because it's not the original work. Basically trying to reconcile it within the anime because the manga levels make perfect sense.

That is such bullcrap. The manga is way closer to Toriyama's outline than the anime which is filled with filler like 10x Kaioken; even though it's admittedly cool, it messes everything up.

The power levels in the manga have been explained and make perfect sense so we should only discuss that until the anime can clear itself up. None of the U6 fighters apart from Hit are above Buu level, Piccolo didn't get a ridiculous power up and neither did Trunks etc.

[Noah]

That only if you go by anime which as I have wrote many times over and over make just some stuff at whim and to make everything more complicated/confused but focus more on flashy and attractive to eye elements. If you go by the manga, then there is no problem with it at all, as we know even ss goku is still much infferior to ssg, actually I mean bog movie from which manga advances after rof movie. To make it enjoyable and free of complicated/retarted stuff just follow this logic...

So you're sayin' that in the manga they're not stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks as base, but maybe only stronger than a SSJ3 at least?

[Bullza]

hit being above kaioken x10 ssb ?

Well Hit drew with Goku didn't he? And that was without him using his killing techniques plus he isnt limited on how long he can keep it up like Goku who has severe pressure placed on him.

Not as ridiculous as SSJ2 Trunks being way stronger than Ultimate Gohan without fighting with Boo or never being implicit to go through some kind of training.

Well it's just like saying that it's ridiculous that a teenage girl with some metal parts is stronger than the strongest beings in the universe, one of which has trained since a small child and with several masters including Gods but that's how it goes.

Considering how strong Goku is at greater than SSJ3 Gotenks levels how could Piccolo possibly leap frog that in a few days no RoSaT??

He didn't, Piccolo is as strong as Gohan. How could he go from being vastly weaker than Goku to stronger than Goku while Goku was doing 3 years of training?

That is such bullcrap. The manga is way closer to Toriyama's outline than the anime which is filled with filler like 10x Kaioken; even though it's admittedly cool, it messes everything up.

That wasn't filler at all. That was something that Toei decided to include in their interpretation of the fight just like how Toyotaro included Super Saiyan God into his interpretation of the fight.

[ssbgoku]

That only if you go by anime which as I have wrote many times over and over make just some stuff at whim and to make everything more complicated/confused but focus more on flashy and attractive to eye elements. If you go by the manga, then there is no problem with it at all, as we know even ss goku is still much infferior to ssg, actually I mean bog movie from which manga advances after rof movie. To make it enjoyable and free of complicated/retarted stuff just follow this logic...

So you're sayin' that in the manga they're not stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks as base, but maybe only stronger than a SSJ3 at least?

Yeah, that exactly what I mean, at least until end of u6 arc, so here it makes sense if we go by this route:


u6:
ssb goku/vegeta
ssg goku
hit
ss goku/vegeta
magenta
rage boost ss cabba
final form frost/ ss cabba
Enraged Mr buu (fat buu) ~ base goku/vegeta
third form frost
holding back worn out final form frost
Picoolo - buu arc ss3 level(of half of him)
Mr buu - above buu arc goku/maijn vegeta ss2 level(120%)
First form frost / super perfect cell
base cabba/ perfect cell

[buutenks]

That only if you go by anime which as I have wrote many times over and over make just some stuff at whim and to make everything more complicated/confused but focus more on flashy and attractive to eye elements. If you go by the manga, then there is no problem with it at all, as we know even ss goku is still much infferior to ssg, actually I mean bog movie from which manga advances after rof movie. To make it enjoyable and free of complicated/retarted stuff just follow this logic...

So you're sayin' that in the manga they're not stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks as base, but maybe only stronger than a SSJ3 at least?

Yeah, that exactly what I mean, at least until end of u6 arc, so here it makes sense if we go by this route:


u6:
ssb goku/vegeta
ssg goku
hit
ss goku/vegeta
magenta
rage boost ss cabba
final form frost/ ss cabba
Enraged Mr buu (fat buu) ~ base goku/vegeta
third form frost
holding back worn out final form frost
Picoolo - buu arc ss3 level(of half of him)
Mr buu - above buu arc goku/maijn vegeta ss2 level(120%)
First form frost / super perfect cell
base cabba/ perfect cell

But, Goku says in the copy Vegeta arc that Vegeta got stronger ^^.

Also, that still puts ssj2 Trunks way above buu saga characters, except maybe Vegetto.

Also, Hit was able to freeza ssg Goku, Goku got out of it by going ssjb. So Hit would be inbetween ssj blue and ssg using the manga.

[Noah]

Yeah, that exactly what I mean, at least until end of u6 arc, so here it makes sense if we go by this route:

Well, base Cabba being the same tier as Perfect Cell is kinda weird for me, but is better than him being already stronger as a Super Saiyan 3 in his normal state. But then that would make Base Cabba > SSJ2 Trunks?

[ssbgoku]

Yeah, that exactly what I mean, at least until end of u6 arc, so here it makes sense if we go by this route:

Well, base Cabba being the same tier as Perfect Cell is kinda weird for me, but is better than him being already stronger as a Super Saiyan 3 in his normal state. But then that would make Base Cabba > SSJ2 Trunks?

Why ? I am sure SS2 Trunks could be above Base cabba ;p

[apex_pretador]

as of current in manga:

whis - 15
beerus - 10
ssb goku/vegeta - 8
ssg goku - 6.5

No, as of manga, Beerus being 10 means SSG < 1

Maybe I wasn't clear in why this is a so weird.
How can this possibly work?

Piccolo < SSJ Gohan < SSJ3 Gotenks < Base Goku < Piccolo < Weak Frost < Strong Frost < SSJ Goku

Considering how strong Goku is at greater than SSJ3 Gotenks levels how could Piccolo possibly leap frog that in a few days no RoSaT??

1. That is more like atleast 8 months.
2. Base goku > Piccolo. Frost was holding back against piccolo.

[BWri]

I appreciate you guys here so much, man! Seriously! I've been lurking for a while and it's cool to see how much logic and effort you all put into what has become an illogical mess. I feel so bad for your overworked brains and the mental gymnastics you have to use to fit everything together. Because of that, I've seen some really creative theories here that have blown my mind.

Back in my day (I'm 27) the most controversial debate was probably the Base Saiyans vs. Piccolo in the Buu Arc. Now it seems to be the two base theory debate. Is there anything more controversial? The base Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks > SS3 Gotenks thing seems pretty suspect. What's the consensus on that? I looked at that copy arc as 100% filler (as much as it can be considered so in DBS) so to me it's nothing different than Yamcha vs Olibu. Just when I was hoping the power levels would stable (once during FnF and once before U6 when Veggie told 59 that they couldn't get much stronger) but the inflation is REAL.

[Bullza]

I suppose the Copy Vegeta vs SSJ3 Gotenks fight could be waved off as filler but I don't see it as being like Yamcha vs Olibu or Popo vs Goten and Trunks because their base forms should be more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Whether it's been retconned or what now, Battle of Gods clearly showed Base Goku to be much stronger than Ultimate Gohan who was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Copy Vegeta stomping SSJ3 Gotenks is one of the few things that's perfectly consistent to me at least.

[buutenks]

Do we have any idea how strong base goku and vegeta are in the Db super manga?