Is Zamasu creating Black after meeting Goku a plot hole?

[Yomi]

First, there are 2 things you'd have to accept before even entertaining this analogy.

1. Even if there are different timelines, all 13 universes should exist within them. (Ex: Zeno should exist in Trunks' timeline, therefore all 13 universes exist in his timeline as well)
2. Time-rings are capable of traversing different timelines. (As demonstrated by Black, even though he was following Trunks' distortion)

Sometime after his fight with Goku, If Zamasu were to somehow use a time-ring to travel to Trunk's timeline 17 years into the future, and creates Black there, 1 year before Trunks
returns to the present; would that be a plot hole?

PS:
And since Goku said Zamasu has Beerus level potential, would that mean that they would have to defeat Black and Future Zamasu (Beerus Tier)?
Do kai's even have different timeline versions like Mortals do?

[sailorspazz]

On the surface, it seems like it would be, but there are possibilities to make it not a plot hole:

1. If time travel only creates split timelines in the universe it originated from (meaning there are multiple versions of Universe 7 but only one Universe 10), Zamasu could use the time ring to go to the future of Universe 7 and accidentally(or not?) end up in future Trunks' timeline instead of the main one. He could create Black there, then return to his original time.

or...

2. Perhaps due to his high position, he could choose which timeline he wants to travel to. For unknown reasons, he decides to go to future Trunks timeline instead of ours to do...whatever happens that results in Black.

I really hope that whatever explanation we get is reasonable...I'll be kinda pissed if it doesn't make sense with the existing workings of time travel in this series. Of course, since the time rings are a new thing, they could work in a totally different way than what we've seen so far.

[Gig]

Well, we don't yet know if really Zamasu "created" Black. They are surely related in some way, but it's not yet (EP53) clear how. Black's potara of the same color of Zamasu's master is supicious (strange that Beerus and Whis did not comment anything about Black having a potara. Maybe they do not know those earrings having special powers? U7 young Kaioshin did not know before old Kaioshin told him).

However, in EP53 discussion thread, I hypotized that maybe Zamasu met Goku also in FT timeline (Dead Goku, e.g. may have partecipated to an inter-universe Tournament in the afterlife), hence creating Goku Black directly in that timeline. In that case, having made Zamasu to meet Goku also in the main timeline, may potentially bring to the birth of a second Goku Black, which would not be exactly the same one FT knows (I don't think this is the way the plot will take, but it's still a feasible way, from what we currently know). UPDATE: Hey, do you imagine a Potara fusion between two Goku Blacks from different timelines? LOL!

However, also time rings making some mess and causing Goku Black ending up in FT timeline while being created by main timeline Zamasu, is possible. As we have seen, the two timelines are "linked" somehow: the second and third time FT went back in time -to help fighting the Androids and to escape from Black-, he still ended up in the "main" timeline, not in "new" timelines (or in its own one) where its first trip has never happened. And returning to the future, he returned to his own one, instead of the one of the main timeline.

[Lord Frieza]

What he have here is what is known as a Causal Loop.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_loop

Goku would likely never have gone to universe 10 and met Zamasu in the way he did if Black didn't exist but Black only exists because Goku met Zamasu. Basically think of the whole situation a big, self perpetuating loop in the time/space stream.

Another, simpler example I can think of is from a video game, TimeSplitters 3. At one point in the game you are walking down a mine when a future version of yourself appears and starts shooting at invisible ghosts thanks too a special gun and googles. After he helps you get to the end of the level future you give present you the gun and googles saying "what would have happens if I had not not been there to help". So you take a path back to the start of the level, now shooting at ghosts, until you get back to the start and find your past self needing help with the ghosts just like present you did (when you were him). You then help past you to the end of the level, all the while saying and doing as future you had done, then you get to the end of the level, give past you the gun and googles. Present you then moves on while past you goes back to help just like you did.

Its surprisingly simple yet complicated at the same time. Wither this is being done by accident (natural forces of the universe) or intent is a different story.

[Gig]

What he have here is what is known as a Causal Loop.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_loop

Goku would likely never have gone to universe 10 and met Zamasu in the way he did if Black didn't exist but Black only exists because Goku met Zamasu. Basically think of the whole situation a big, self perpetuating loop in the time/space stream.

Another, simpler example I can think of is from a video game, TimeSplitters 3. At one point in the game you are walking down a mine when a future version of yourself appears and starts shooting at invisible ghosts thanks too a special gun and googles. After he helps you get to the end of the level future you give present you the gun and googles saying "what would have happens if I had not not been there to help". So you take a path back to the start of the level, now shooting at ghosts, until you get back to the start and find your past self needing help with the ghosts just like present you did (when you were him). You then help past you to the end of the level, all the while saying and doing as future you had done, then you get to the end of the level, give past you the gun and googles. Present you then moves on while past you goes back to help just like you did.

Its surprisingly simple yet complicated at the same time. Wither this is being done by accident (natural forces of the universe) or intent is a different story.

IIRC, something similar happened in one of the Harry Potter movies (at a point, Harry thought that the ghost of his father came to help him, but we later see that in reality he has been helped by his future self, who travelled back in time a few hours with Hermione).
The problem is to apply this in fictions where it has been stated that time travelling causes the creation of new timelines instead of affecting the only one existing... but however, we don't know yet how those different colored time rings work exactly.

[dbgtFO]

What he have here is what is known as a Causal Loop.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_loop

Goku would likely never have gone to universe 10 and met Zamasu in the way he did if Black didn't exist but Black only exists because Goku met Zamasu. Basically think of the whole situation a big, self perpetuating loop in the time/space stream.

Another, simpler example I can think of is from a video game, TimeSplitters 3. At one point in the game you are walking down a mine when a future version of yourself appears and starts shooting at invisible ghosts thanks too a special gun and googles. After he helps you get to the end of the level future you give present you the gun and googles saying "what would have happens if I had not not been there to help". So you take a path back to the start of the level, now shooting at ghosts, until you get back to the start and find your past self needing help with the ghosts just like present you did (when you were him). You then help past you to the end of the level, all the while saying and doing as future you had done, then you get to the end of the level, give past you the gun and googles. Present you then moves on while past you goes back to help just like you did.

Its surprisingly simple yet complicated at the same time. Wither this is being done by accident (natural forces of the universe) or intent is a different story.

IIRC, something similar happened in one of the Harry Potter movies (at a point, Harry thought that the ghost of his father came to help him, but we later see that in reality he has been helped by his future self, who travelled back in time a few hours with Hermione).

Yes, the third book/movie "[...]and The Prisoner of Azkaban."
Never can forget Harry justifying his perfect Patronous by realizing he had already made it, which of course makes you think, if there is an original Harry who couldn't use that knowledge to create his perfect Patronus...
I hate those time loops.

The problem is to apply this in fictions where it has been stated that time travelling causes the creation of new timelines instead of affecting the only one existing... but however, we don't know yet how those different colored time rings work exactly.

Indeed, it could be the Gods' artefacts work without the weakness of creating parallel worlds like in Xenoverse, where Trunks' time machine is established as an inferior method of time travelling.