Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[worrior_v1]

I personally believe that over the years, and due to the immense power acquisition Goku and Vegeta have acquired, that they are able to suppress their total energy to insanely low levels.

For example, Goku vs Black.

Goku was holding back just enough so he was slightly stronger than black to see what black was capable of, correct?

Goku vs Zamasu- Goku was holding back similarly to see where Zamasu was, but since Zamasu's techniques were different, Goku perhaps misinterpreted his strength and didnt go down low enough to SSJ or whatever; he might have thought that he was facing an opponent as strong as Black (since it was proposed that Zamasu could be black,e tc) and thus went to the same level as him.

Goku vs trunks- Goku held back just enough to his pre-buu levels; to the level he was when he was facing SSJ Majin Vegeta to gauge trunk's power. In that case, it was obvious that trunks was slightly stronger so Goku powered up a bit to SSJ3, and show cased a small portion of his power.

One thing which is evident is that when Trunks first met Goku after waking up from the PTSD coming from the Time-machine, he went ALL-OUT and attempted to punch Goku with all his power; and since Goku didn't have a clue as to how strong he was, didnt feel the need to supress anything and just held his hand in surprise so to speak.

My point is, at this moment in time, Goku and Vegeta are so powerful that not only can they power up to such a great extent, that they are able to suppress their power-level to close to their opponents so to make it more of a close *entertaining* match, and to make their opponent believe that they have a chance, when in reality, that isn't the case.

I believe that Trunks is still below SS3 Gotenks, but not by that much. I think before Black appeared, Trunks was at SS2 Gohan Cells level and after 1 year of fighting him, he reached close to SS3 Goku ( Buu Saga) level.

Also, the reason why I think Beerus was impressed by Trunk's strength, was that he was comparing it to the others he has met- not one of the other fighters ( aside from ultimate Gohan BOG ) has been around that tier of strength. So when he saw trunks power-up to that extent he was impressed; my thought being that he didn't know trunks was capable of achieving that on his own, in a timeline where there are no people of powerlevels close to the one in the main timeline.

Of course that is under a magnitude of assumptions, but you get the gist.

I have SSJB X10 KK>>>>>SSJB Goku>>>SSJ Goku (full power)>>>>>>Base Goku (Full power vs hit)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SS3 Goku ( Restrained to Buu Saga levels)>>SS2 Goku (Supressed)>>SSj Goku (Supressed)>>>>>>>>Base Goku (Supressed).

One has to remember the moment mecha-frieza landed on earth and used his scouter to measure Trunks's power level.....and remind himself that now Goku and Vegeta have God-tier strength lol.

[Bullza]

Jeez, Vegeta just held back. He wasn't trying to kill Trunks lol.

Also I watched with sub's. Trunks says to not hold back and for vegeta to use ssj3. Then Vegeta laughs and goes ssjb.

Plus again, Trunks is unable to sense god ki. And Whis in RoF arc says: Vegeta got strong enough to be able to sense god ki.

So either u r a god and can sense god ki, or u r very powerful and can sense god ki. Trunks is neither.

But Vegeta had also learned to become a God. Both he and Goku have the power of a God running through them so it makes sense that they can sense that power unlike Trunks who doesn't.

If he told Vegeta to not hold back and use SSJ3 it doesn't make sense for Vegeta to laugh off that power and then turn SSJB and then hold back to weaker than SSJ3 levels.

He was able to push back SSJ2 Goku who just last episode was commented on having power that rivals a God of Destruction so it's not that farfetched for him to withstand a couple attacks from SSJB Vegeta.

[worrior_v1]

But Vegeta had also learned to become a God. Both he and Goku have the power of a God running through them so it makes sense that they can sense that power unlike Trunks who doesn't.

If he told Vegeta to not hold back and use SSJ3 it doesn't make sense for Vegeta to laugh off that power and then turn SSJB and then hold back to weaker than SSJ3 levels.

He was able to push back SSJ2 Goku who just last episode was commented on having power that rivals a God of Destruction so it's not that farfetched for him to withstand a couple attacks from SSJB Vegeta.

That part about vegeta turning to SSB and then holding back to weaker than SSJ3 puts a hole in my theory....eh I know Goku and Vegeta are STILL heavily supressed when fighting Trunks in that form- that is obvious.

Trunks is most certainly stronger than SSJ3 now since Vegeta had absolutely no reason to go beyond SSJ3 and go SSJBlue and hold back BELOW SSJ3.

However, this is also confusing because that would, in turn, place trunks to be stronger than SSJ Cabba as a SSJ2?

The issue with Beerus being impressed by Trunks's strength does make sense but then again, how could Trunks have reached God-tier power as a SSJ2 in his alternative time-line? Purely from fighting with Black?

That would imply Zenkai boosts are now a thing again- and with the recent updates about "SSJ Rose" and Black becoming far more powerful again, it would all make sense.

The hardest thing about Dragon Ball Super, as of now, is where we place piccolo on the power spectrum. His fight with frost is the one thing that truly confuses the life out of me.

[Bullza]

However, this is also confusing because that would, in turn, place trunks to be stronger than SSJ Cabba as a SSJ2?

From a pureky visual perspective Trunks was definitely shown to be superior to Cabba. SSJB Vegeta hit Cabba before he knew what had happened and fell to the ground unconscious from a small gut punch.

Trunks on the other hand was able to keep up with SSJB Vegeta to the extent he was able to fall out of his bulked up form in order to dodge one of his attacks plus he was kicked through the forest and punched around and remained conscious.

Why Trunks was able to jump to that level is unknown but it makes about as much sense as Piccolo jumping up to Super Saiyan level back in the Android saga. Maybe it has something to do with the advice the Supreme Kai gave him. Maybe his visual training had something to do with it.

[buutenks]

If it weren't for the God ki sensing, I would believe Trunks is close to god tier. However, ep 18 shows that if you aren't a god u need to have a certain power level to sense god ki. Then in ep 25 Freeza shows that he can sense god ki. And Hit was also shown to sense god ki. None of them had access to god ki. Infact even Vegeta's training consisted of manual labor mostly and then some sparring with Whis.

Trunks failed to sense god ki. On top of that he easily got smashed by ssj3 Goku. Who Vegeta states is nowhere near Goku's full power.

Also, about surviving ssjb hits: Do you all forget Roshi survived a hit from powered up Tagoma, and so did Tien?

And Trunks specifically mentions for Vegeta to not hold back, to use ssj3(Trunks thinks that is Vegeta's full power). To which Vegeta laughs mockingly and goes ssjb. Ssj3 is nothing to ssjb, this is confirmed when Vegeta states that ssj3 is nowhere near Goku's real power.

[Bullza]

Yes but at the same time Trunks said that Black was stronger than SSJ3 Goku and he wasn't smashed by him either, he held his own for a bit and was able to make an escape.

Maybe chalk up his loss to Goku due to him only very recently being rendered unconscious due to Blacks attacks and then waking up and getting straight into it with Goku before recovering.

If Copy Vegeta could withstand SSJ3 Gotenks attacks without putting his guard up but SSJ2 Goku has to put his guard up for Trunks attack then Trunks can't be weaker than Gotenks because otherwise why would he need to guard himself?

[TheMikado]

^ two bases

On another note, so Cabba can sense SSB then? I didn't actually think about it.

Ok give me a quick run down in their various forms between Vegeta, Cabba, Goku, and Trunks. You'd think this would be pretty easy considering the amount of sparring and comparisons between that happened.

[Bullza]

Well it is pretty easy.

SSJB Goku Kaioken x10

SSJB Goku/Vegeta

SSJ3 Goku

SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta

SSJ2 Trunks

SSJ Goku/Vegeta

SSJ Trunks/Cabba

Base Goku/Vegeta

Trunks/Cabba

The only real question is how Base/SSJ Trunks compares to Base/SSJ Cabba. Trunks has mainly just used SSJ2 in battle so it's hard to say but I don't think there's be much in it either way so I've just put him on equal pegging with Cabba.

[Chiki]

Can Golden Frieza sense god ki? If so that's evidence that Trunks is still at Buu Saga levels.

^ two bases

On another note, so Cabba can sense SSB then? I didn't actually think about it.

Ok give me a quick run down in their various forms between Vegeta, Cabba, Goku, and Trunks. You'd think this would be pretty easy considering the amount of sparring and comparisons between that happened.

It's unclear if Cabba can sense SSB. If they meant he could sense his ki, it could have just been a mistake. If Cabba was just impressed by Vegeta's description of SSB and appearance then it wouldn't have anything to do with ki.

Regardless if the two base theory is true in the anime, then it was either a mistake or he did not refer to ki, since Cabba is Cell level or so.

We know for certain that the two base theory is true in the manga, and I consider the manga canon, so anime discussion is irrelevant to me anyways. The anime is full of filler and contradictions like Vegeta's 10% line.

[Bullza]

There's nothing at all in the manga that proves the two base theory either, I don't know where that's coming from. It certainly can't be just because Goku used Super Saiyan God in the manga anyway.

[buutenks]

Can Golden Frieza sense god ki? If so that's evidence that Trunks is still at Buu Saga levels.

^ two bases

On another note, so Cabba can sense SSB then? I didn't actually think about it.

Ok give me a quick run down in their various forms between Vegeta, Cabba, Goku, and Trunks. You'd think this would be pretty easy considering the amount of sparring and comparisons between that happened.

It's unclear if Cabba can sense SSB. If they meant he could sense his ki, it could have just been a mistake. If Cabba was just impressed by Vegeta's description of SSB and appearance then it wouldn't have anything to do with ki.

Regardless if the two base theory is true in the anime, then it was either a mistake or he did not refer to ki, since Cabba is Cell level or so.

We know for certain that the two base theory is true in the manga, and I consider the manga canon, so anime discussion is irrelevant to me anyways. The anime is full of filler and contradictions like Vegeta's 10% line.

Golden Freeza can indeed sense god ki. He says, from the energy i am sensing i will win. He compared his golden power to Goku's blue power and he deduced his is higher.

Also, i rewatched the ep with proper subs. This is what Trunks says to Vegeta:

(Trunks goes ssj2) Now father. You dont have to hold back. Come at me with the same style as Goku-san...using super saiyan 3!

I dont see how u can get this that ssj blue Vegeta was going all out on Trunks. Its simple. Trunks says father go ssj3 like Goku and dont hold back. Vegeta laughs since ssj3 is nothing now, and goes ssj blue and says if Trunks can hit him he wins. Then goes around kicking Trunks with enough force to hurt him but not ko him.

Also, about Beerus saying Trunks is not bad. he said that to Goku when he went ssj3 against him for the first time. Beerus said, impressive u werent bluffing. Since, while puny compared to Beerus, having more power than namek saga Freeza is a very impressive thing.

[Chiki]

I dont see how u can get this that ssj blue Vegeta was going all out on Trunks. Its simple.

You can't get it at all, but I don't blame TheMikado for thinking that since no sub had come out when he first said that and there was a lot of confusion obviously.

If even Golden Frieza, who couldn't sense ki back in the Namek arc and had to rely on a scouter, can sense god ki, it 100% proves that Trunks is not on that level. I don't see how anyone can deny it at this point since Hit, Golden Frieza, Base Vegeta and even maybe Cabba can sense god ki. I think some people just don't want to admit that they were wrong.

[Lionel]

Even if Trunks can't sense God Ki, the fact that he reacted at all to Vegeta indicates that he must be sitting within a good spectrum. Maybe his positioning relative to SSJB is similar to SSJ2 enraged Vegeta and suppressed Beerus?

[Chiki]

Even if Trunks can't sense God Ki, the fact that he reacted at all to Vegeta indicates that he must be sitting within a good spectrum. Maybe his positioning relative to SSJB is similar to SSJ2 enraged Vegeta and suppressed Beerus?

Or maybe Vegeta was holding back like crazy so that he wouldn't prematurely end their game?

[Bullza]

There was never indication that he was holding back. Even if he were holding back he'd still be on the level above Black and SSJ3 Goku who are well above SSJG level themselves.

All three fights Trunks has had prove him to be God level. That said God level is such a broad term now that's it best to just say he's about SSJ2 Post-God level.

[TheMikado]

I never implied Vegeta was going all out nor made that assumption, but for Vegeta to hold back to the levels necessary to not obliterate Trunks at SSB level when we saw what a restrained SSJ3 Goku can do is insane. If SSB is really that large of a gap then all Vegeta should need to do is blow hard and take out Trunks.

The ONLY reasonable conclusion I can make is that SSB is really not that much stronger than say SSJ3 or the SSJ forms if their bases are this strong.

Basically SSJ X 50
SSJ2 X 100
SSJ3 X 400
SSB X 500 this is the only way I could logically think Vegeta would t accidentally turn him to dust.

[Chiki]

I never implied Vegeta was going all out nor made that assumption, but for Vegeta to hold back to the levels necessary to not obliterate Trunks at SSB level when we saw what a restrained SSJ3 Goku can do is insane. If SSB is really that large of a gap then all Vegeta should need to do is blow hard and take out Trunks.

The ONLY reasonable conclusion I can make is that SSB is really not that much stronger than say SSJ3 or the SSJ forms if their bases are this strong.

Basically SSJ X 50
SSJ2 X 100
SSJ3 X 400
SSB X 500 this is the only way I could logically think Vegeta would t accidentally turn him to dust.

Why is it insane if SSB Goku can hold back so much that Sorbet's shitty laser ring can penetrate his chest? We've already seen proof of their capability to hold back so idk why you're making such a big deal out of it.

[TheMikado]

I never implied Vegeta was going all out nor made that assumption, but for Vegeta to hold back to the levels necessary to not obliterate Trunks at SSB level when we saw what a restrained SSJ3 Goku can do is insane. If SSB is really that large of a gap then all Vegeta should need to do is blow hard and take out Trunks.

The ONLY reasonable conclusion I can make is that SSB is really not that much stronger than say SSJ3 or the SSJ forms if their bases are this strong.

Basically SSJ X 50
SSJ2 X 100
SSJ3 X 400
SSB X 500 this is the only way I could logically think Vegeta would t accidentally turn him to dust.

Why is it insane if SSB Goku can hold back so much that Sorbet's shitty laser ring can penetrate his chest? We've already seen proof of their capability to hold back so idk why you're making such a big deal out of it.

Because we have NEVER seen this level of "holding" back in the entire history of the Dragonball franchise. Typically when a characters gap in power is as large as we are claiming they do the one finger unstoppable thing. Ala SSJ Goku vs Trunks and SSJ3 Goku vs Beerus. In order for s character to take a full on punch in a semi serious tone they need to at least be at the level where they can inflict some sort of damage on each other. This is NOT Dragonball this holding back nonsense guessing is ridiculous especially when it's always always been explicit about stating that and to what degree. This is NOT how the series has traditionally played out.

[Chiki]

I never implied Vegeta was going all out nor made that assumption, but for Vegeta to hold back to the levels necessary to not obliterate Trunks at SSB level when we saw what a restrained SSJ3 Goku can do is insane. If SSB is really that large of a gap then all Vegeta should need to do is blow hard and take out Trunks.

The ONLY reasonable conclusion I can make is that SSB is really not that much stronger than say SSJ3 or the SSJ forms if their bases are this strong.

Basically SSJ X 50
SSJ2 X 100
SSJ3 X 400
SSB X 500 this is the only way I could logically think Vegeta would t accidentally turn him to dust.

Why is it insane if SSB Goku can hold back so much that Sorbet's shitty laser ring can penetrate his chest? We've already seen proof of their capability to hold back so idk why you're making such a big deal out of it.

Because we have NEVER seen this level of "holding" back in the entire history of the Dragonball franchise. Typically when a characters gap in power is as large as we are claiming they do the one finger unstoppable thing. Ala SSJ Goku vs Trunks and SSJ3 Goku vs Beerus. In order for s character to take a full on punch in a semi serious tone they need to at least be at the level where they can inflict some sort of damage on each other. This is NOT Dragonball this holding back nonsense guessing is ridiculous especially when it's always always been explicit about stating that and to what degree. This is NOT how the series has traditionally played out.

wat? I just gave you an example of an extreme holding back. How strong do you think Sorbet's laser ring is? I doubt it could even penetrate Saiyan Saga Vegeta's chest. SSB Goku can go from being max SSB level to being, well, below Saiyan Saga level if he's off guard. He can suppress his ki as much as he wants.

Look, the anime outright says SSB has great ki control. So why can't he suppress his ki as much as he wants in SSB? It makes perfect sense. I thought the entire point of ki control was being able to increase, decrease, do things with it etc.

We saw an example of even worse holding back. Base SSG Goku, after Beerus left in BoG, got beaten up by Bulma, who has a power level of what, 2? Base SSG Goku can bring his power level down to 2 if he wishes.

[TheMikado]

You're using examples from Super which is my entire point. This series has had the worse power scaling of the entire franchise bar none. There's no way around it period. It is literally the worse scaling of even the "non canon" series and movies.