Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by Cursemark505 » Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:33 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote: It still doesn't make sense, because One Piece airs right after Super and has a lot of blood. Both are shonens from Toei that air on Sunday morning.
One Piece is far more popular than Dragon Ball and the anime's faithfulness to the manga is it's major selling point.
That doesn't explain Super huge censorship.
One Piece's anime started long before censorship became stricter so that's why it lacks much censorship.
Super does not have that luxury.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by kinisking » Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:38 pm

ArchedThunder wrote:
kinisking wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: One Piece is far more popular than Dragon Ball and the anime's faithfulness to the manga is it's major selling point.
Is it still far more popular nowadays though? Doesn't dragonBall merchandise outsell it?
Dragon Ball is a bigger money maker for Bandai now, but One Piece is a bigger money maker for Toei still.
It'll be interesting to see how that changes once Super starts making the rounds to more countries, especially the US.
How does Toei make money off of it outside of what Bandai makes? Also, I don't know about other places, but in the U. 'S dragonBall is huge and destroys one piece.
Last edited by kinisking on Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by Anime Kitten » Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:41 pm

Sorry to mini-mod, but wouldn't it make the thread a lot neater if we didn't keep chain quoting?
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by Mazingerdestro » Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:29 am

Seen the latest episode was a weird experience.......
We saw so much accuracy, nice transitions between scenes, and in general on model faces etc.

Why is it that in older episodes, the same animators couldn't produce such quality material?

At first I was like "OK we have the shitty animators and we have the good ones" but recently I saw that people from my "shitty animators list" are occasionally transitioning to the "great animators list".

Is schedule so bad that a guy or a team that produces quality material can end up producing low quality ?

Episodes like......
13
Vegeta vs Cabba
Vegeta vs hit
Goku vs hit
Filler water arc episode 1
Trunks vs black (all of them)
Goku vs Black at some points

.....were great and in general lacked the "weird faces".

Don't toei supervisors (at least the people who check how production is going) understand that these people should work only in "key" episodes?

For example shouldn't all the climaxes include them? Or at least make a team with the best people just for key episodes? (Is that even possible?)

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:45 am

kinisking wrote: Also, I don't know about other places, but in the U. 'S dragonBall is huge and destroys one piece.
Can you provide some numbers please cause I don't think DB destroys One Piece.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by PMD » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:52 am

About that, I think you guys can provide a more specific guess, but I think these breaks they are taking (two weekends ago and now the next one) are making magic for the key animators.

My guess is episode 54 was a big benefactor of those breaks. It looks like it could be really bad but the result was really satisfactory.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by Ajay » Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:12 pm

Here's something interesting I've been researching over the past couple of days:

In this week's episode, there were a few shots that looked so much like what we've been calling Tate's "refined style" that I couldn't believe he'd be doing this much work uncredited -- that, and well, it's something that had popped up in other episodes, and I'd always wondered about. It's a style a lot of us picked up on in all of Tate's episodes after episode 11, but in particular, episode 38. Myself and many others have called it "Tate with time"; it's work that has a loose quality to it, but always seems a little more refined than the work that is 100% Tate's key animation. We separated it into Tate: The Animator and Tate: The Character Artist, and while that's absolutely still the case, we were very wrong in a lot of what we'd previously attributed to him. This is actually the work of Miyako Tsuji, one of the Chief Animation Supervisors on Dragon Ball Super. He shares a lot of traits with Tate's more detailed work, but there are some subtle differences that I hadn't clocked before.

I'm sure you've seen images like these, not only in Tate's episodes, but in Yashima's, too. In Yashima's case, I think many of us simply decided he was an inconsistent animator, and so any time his ugly pointy-nosed models popped up, he was simply scribbling out frames due to the nature of his episodes. This is clearly not the case, and if you look at the episodes he's done, you'll see that Tsuji is either a key animator or a chief supervisor. The same goes for his appearance in Tate's episodes, too. While I will show the differences between Tate's work and Tsuji's further down this post, I get the strong feeling that the two have an arrangement where Tsuji handles a lot of the supervisory work, while Tate focuses on actually animating. I say this because episode 47, which was Tate's first episode since episode 11 where Tsuji wasn't the chief supervisor, had absolutely no traces of the style we're talking about here. Outside of Ishikawa's parts, it was pure Tate, through and through.

Here's some screenshots that hopefully showcase the differences a little more clearly:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Tate has longer faces, more slack jaws, and rounder noses. His necks tend to extend further, and everything has much more softer approach. The easiest way to tell the two apart is through the muscle detail. Tate tends use pretty loose lines to define the muscles, whereas Tsuji is a little more angular. The silly thing is, both of them vary so much depending on the scene. It's no surprise so many of us got confused. I think I have a good grasp on Tusji's art now, so it should make discerning who did what much easier in the future.

Hope this helps! It drove me crazy trying to work it out, but thankfully I got there in the end.

In other news, we now have the staff list for the upcoming episodes:

55: Seizo Toma and Kaoru Takamura
56: Naoki Tate and Shuuichiro Manabe
57: Yuichi Karasawa and Yukihiro Kitano

Wow, so Tate and Manabe are going to be paired up! That should be exciting. I kinda wish they let those two do episode 57 since that appears to be the major fight, but I can understand wanting someone like Karasawa on there for mass appeal. Hopefully he keeps Kitano in check. Tate and Manabe handling the big Super Saiyan Rose transformation and the start of the fight should be absolutely incredible. Ughhhhhh, it's so far away!
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by ArchedThunder » Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:20 pm

Ajay wrote:
In other news, we now have the staff list for the upcoming episodes:

55: Seizo Toma and Kaoru Takamura
56: Naoki Tate and Shuuichiro Manabe
57: Yuichi Karasawa and Yukihiro Kitano

Wow, so Tate and Manabe are going to be paired up! That should be exciting. I kinda wish they let those two do episode 57 since that appears to be the major fight, but I can understand wanting someone like Karasawa on there for mass appeal. Hopefully he keeps Kitano in check. Tate and Manabe handling the big Super Saiyan Rose transformation and the start of the fight should be absolutely incredible. Ughhhhhh, it's so far away!
Totally called Tate on 56 and Karasawa on 57! I'm betting we'll still have plenty of action in 56 though, I wouldn't worry. Manabe and Tate is an interesting pairing for sure, so glad Manabe isn't gone, I was worried for a bit there.
I'm excited, 11 weeks for the Tate episode and 9 for the Karasawa episode, hopefully they are able to give us some good stuff.

As for the rest of your post, thank you for figuring that out! I recently watched through the Champa arc with a friend and I got really confused seeing shots in episodes like Yashima's Piccolo Vs Frost that looked like Tate.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by DragonBalllKaiHD » Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:51 pm

Ever since Naoki Tate worked on #5, he's always had the same unique loose style, even with additional time on his plate. The instance I saw the "refined" model, I knew it wasn't Tate's. #38 saw the number of World Trigger staff jumping in to help with Tate. Miyako Tsuji also co-supervised with Mashiiro Shimanuki on #36, while also uncreditedly key animated Shimanuki's #54.

My guess is that Tsuji saw Tate and Shimanuki as a good investment to the animation production, thus helping out both in making the episodes look as good as possible. It's may be because of Tsuji that Shimanuki was able to improve his style back to his old "Z" self. It's only a matter of time before his sense of fight choreography improves. Karasawa doesn't need help. So with that, we have three reliable supervisors in the rotation, in addition to Tsuji.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by Doctor. » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:14 pm

I wish the series had more dynamic art like this for instance. Would make a fight scene that much more impactful or memorable.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by Sodhi » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:28 pm

Looks like they finally started listing two supervisors in the magazine. Excited for #56 and #57. Also looks like Tomioka Atsuhiro is coming back to write #55. Onishi Yoichi is getting a lot of time too.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:29 pm

Doctor. wrote:I wish the series had more dynamic art like this for instance. Would make a fight scene that much more impactful or memorable.
What anime is that from?

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by Bansho64 » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:35 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: What anime is that from?
Pokemon XYZ I think. It's pretty good from what I've heard.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:42 pm

Bansho64 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: What anime is that from?
Pokemon XYZ I think. It's pretty good from what I've heard.
Pokémon anime is pretty great yeah plus they have movies every year too.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by Doctor. » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:45 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Doctor. wrote:I wish the series had more dynamic art like this for instance. Would make a fight scene that much more impactful or memorable.
What anime is that from?
Pokémon XY&Z. From this fight scene in particular, the shot I posted is near the end.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by Anime Kitten » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:51 pm

Pokémon anime? Great? I hope you mean the animation.

Anyway, it was mentioned earlier, but it would still be cool to get Ultimate Tenkaichi opening or even Resurrection 'F'-style animation.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by Doctor. » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:53 pm

Anime Kitten wrote:Pokémon anime? Great? I hope you mean the animation.
Yeah, and even the animation only stepped up in XY. I wouldn't call the anime as a whole anywhere near even "decent".

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by Shuby » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:54 pm

I know we are coming slightly off topic but this video explains perfectly why Pokemon XY and XYZ did a complete 180 , can't expect Dragon Ball Super to come even remotely half close with it's atrocious schedule.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMHHOMz1uUs

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by Anime Kitten » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:59 pm

Doctor. wrote:Yeah, and even the animation only stepped up in XY. I wouldn't call the anime as a whole anywhere near even "decent".
I think it was the very end of Battle Frontier where it got noticeably better. And neither would I.

Off-subject, I noticed the SSJB Goku VS Golden Frieza fight had bad art (obviously), but the animation was really good.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #54]

Post by Ajay » Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:41 pm

DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:Ever since Naoki Tate worked on #5, he's always had the same unique loose style, even with additional time on his plate. The instance I saw the "refined" model, I knew it wasn't Tate's.
That's not entirely the case, so I don't think it's very fair to take the, "I knew all along" approach as though it was plainly obvious. The misconception didn't come out of nowhere, that's for sure. There's absolutely a difference between Tate's loose approach and his more refined work, and that's all to do with time. You can see that pretty clearly between his work on the first half of #26, where he soloed the whole thing, and his more timely episodes where much of his character art is similar to Tsuji's, hence the confusion. Don't get me wrong, Tate absolutely has a unique way of animating things, but the way he draws characters varies quite a lot, to the point where it takes longer than a quick glance to discern if it's definitely him.

I mean, check this out. Here's a selection of Tsuji and Tate shots all scrambled up. There are plenty of tells, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to make this in the first place, but the differences aren't as drastic as, say, something like this.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Between the large majority of Tate and Tsuji's work, obviously there's a huge difference, and you'd have to be blind not to see it, I agree, but in many cases, there are enough similarities that this confusion is very much justified.
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