Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Alruneia]

Future Trunks, upon introduction, suppressed his power level down to 5 against Freeza's soldiers. There's no way this suppression was not on the level of several hundreds of thousands, since he was easily stronger than Goku's 3,000,000 against Freeza. Sorry for using power levels, but these ones are confirmed. If Future Trunks could bring his power level down to a millionth of his real power back then, why would Vegeta not be able to do the same now?

[Chiki]

Well that's a rather weak argument for multiple reasons (no offense).

1. We're watching Super now not DBZ. It may seem weird to you because it's in Super and not DBZ but that makes no sense since we're not watching DBZ anymore after all. This is Super.
2. My example was from the RoF movie, which is DBZ.
3. DBZ did not have SSB, which has perfect ki control, SS does not and that explains why Goku could not hold back that much during DBZ (not including RoF).

[Bullza]

The ONLY reasonable conclusion I can make is that SSB is really not that much stronger than say SSJ3 or the SSJ forms if their bases are this strong.

It's reasonable and I've seen a few on here and I think I did too at one point give that exact multiplier of SSJB being 500x Base. Up to yet there hasn't been much to compare SSJ3 and SSJB except that the latter is stronger.

The best comparison so far is in comparing Trunks' fight to Black who is said to be as strong as SSJ3 Goku to his fight with SSJB Vegeta. Both dominated him but he at least was able to hold his own against Black to an extent.

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of any speed difference because Trunks could still keep up with Vegeta's speed but it was his strenght that was pointed out.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

All three fights Trunks has had prove him to be God level. That said God level is such a broad term now that's it best to just say he's about SSJ2 Post-God level.

Then why can't he sense god ki?

[TheMikado]

The ONLY reasonable conclusion I can make is that SSB is really not that much stronger than say SSJ3 or the SSJ forms if their bases are this strong.

It's reasonable and I've seen a few on here and I think I did too at one point give that exact multiplier of SSJB being 500x Base. Up to yet there hasn't been much to compare SSJ3 and SSJB except that the latter is stronger.

The best comparison so far is in comparing Trunks' fight to Black who is said to be as strong as SSJ3 Goku to his fight with SSJB Vegeta. Both dominated him but he at least was able to hold his own against Black to an extent.

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of any speed difference because Trunks could still keep up with Vegeta's speed but it was his strenght that was pointed out.

Exactly, this is what I'm getting at. The only way a single base logically works to me is that the SSB multiplier is not much greater than SSJ3. This also makes sense in the context of putting SSJ Goku in the God tier as SSB would only be about 10x stronger than SSJ and only 5x stronger than a SSJ2 at that level.

[TheMikado]

Well that's a rather weak argument for multiple reasons (no offense).

1. We're watching Super now not DBZ. It may seem weird to you because it's in Super and not DBZ but that makes no sense since we're not watching DBZ anymore after all. This is Super.
2. My example was from the RoF movie, which is DBZ.
3. DBZ did not have SSB, which has perfect ki control, SS does not and that explains why Goku could not hold back that much during DBZ (not including RoF).

You're right, Super is a sad poor excuse for what has been a typical Dragonball franchise series and I have no problem repeating that over and over again.

[Chiki]

Well that's a rather weak argument for multiple reasons (no offense).

1. We're watching Super now not DBZ. It may seem weird to you because it's in Super and not DBZ but that makes no sense since we're not watching DBZ anymore after all. This is Super.
2. My example was from the RoF movie, which is DBZ.
3. DBZ did not have SSB, which has perfect ki control, SS does not and that explains why Goku could not hold back that much during DBZ (not including RoF).

You're right, Super is a sad poor excuse for what has been a typical Dragonball franchise series and I have no problem repeating that over and over again.

I also don't agree that the power scaling in Super is bad, because the two base theory is true in the manga and really I can't think of a single thing in the manga that doesn't make sense.

If the two base theory is false in the anime, then yes, it is a complete nonsensical mess.

[Bullza]

All three fights Trunks has had prove him to be God level. That said God level is such a broad term now that's it best to just say he's about SSJ2 Post-God level.

Then why can't he sense god ki?

Well the straight forward answer should be that it's because Trunks did not absorb the power of a God nor did any special training to obtain the power of a God unlike Goku.

But apparently Frieza and Hit could sense SSJB Goku. Yet there was that thing about SSJB possibly having something to do with Ki not be leaked out so how could that be sensed anyway? It's not really consistent.

I don't recall characters having to be at a certain level to be able to sense it but if that is a thing then maybe it requires being at Golden Frieza and Hit level which Trunks is not close to.

But you've seen exactly what I've seen. SSJ Goku was as strong as SSJG Goku (stronger now probably from all the training). SSJ2 Goku had to guard himself from Trunks attacks but Copy Base Vegeta did not have to against SSJ3 Gotenks who didn't make him budge.

Trunks held his own against Black and made him put up his guard and he's as strong as SSJ3 Goku. Trunks reacted, dodged and withstood attacks from SSJB Vegeta, he even made him put his guard up.

He's just God level, it's been shown with all his fights so far.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't recall characters having to be at a certain level to be able to sense it but if that is a thing then maybe it requires being at Golden Frieza and Hit level which Trunks is not close to.

It was stated that base Goku & Vegeta could sense god ki because they had reach a certain level of power, with no implication that absorbing the power of SSG had anything to do with it. The fact that Freeza & Hit, who have no relation to gods, can sense god ki confirms this even more.


This also explains why Goku & others could sense the ki of other gods like Dende & Kaio before BoG/FnF/Super, since in every case that a mortal sensed the ki of a god, the mortal was stronger than the god.

[HeroR]

Jeez, Vegeta just held back. He wasn't trying to kill Trunks lol.

Also I watched with sub's. Trunks says to not hold back and for vegeta to use ssj3. Then Vegeta laughs and goes ssjb.

Plus again, Trunks is unable to sense god ki. And Whis in RoF arc says: Vegeta got strong enough to be able to sense god ki.

So either u r a god and can sense god ki, or u r very powerful and can sense god ki. Trunks is neither.

You don't have to be a god to sense god ki, just extremely powerful. For example, Hit could sense Goku's energy even as he used the Kaio-Ken, although he seems to lose track of it after 4X. Golden Freeza could also sense god ki. Goku and Vegeta in their base forms can feel god ki, despite their base forms not having god ki.

So yeah, if Future Trunks was anywhere near Goku and Vegeta's base forms, he should have sensed Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and not just the pressure from it. Also remember that Vegeta floored Cabba in one-hit, after he beat the shit out of him as a Super Saiyan, so Cabba wasn't at his full power as a Super Saiyan.

[Bullza]

It was stated that base Goku & Vegeta could sense god ki because they had reach a certain level of power, with no implication that absorbing the power of SSG had anything to do with it. The fact that Freeza & Hit, who have no relation to gods, can sense god ki confirms this even more.

Where was that stated? All I remember is the scene with the Oracle Fish where it says (I checked) "so you're finally able to sense the Ki of a God" which doesn't imply him having to be at a certain level and could have just been something he learned.

Final Form Frieza was about as strong as Base Vegeta but he didn't seem to be able to sense SSJB Goku's power or know that he was a God until he was told. He wouldn't have attacked him if he could tell how strong he was but he did because he said he had to make sure to see if Goku wasn't bluffing or lying.

In fact there's no indication that Frieza could sense that power at all. When he went Golden he said to Goku that he was superior but that'd just be down to his whole cocky attitude like he was spouting back on Namek.

[Saiyan007]

Well that's a rather weak argument for multiple reasons (no offense).

1. We're watching Super now not DBZ. It may seem weird to you because it's in Super and not DBZ but that makes no sense since we're not watching DBZ anymore after all. This is Super.
2. My example was from the RoF movie, which is DBZ.
3. DBZ did not have SSB, which has perfect ki control, SS does not and that explains why Goku could not hold back that much during DBZ (not including RoF).

Literally this I don't see why anyone needs it spelled out that vegeta was massively holding back against Trunks.

Saying well we've never seen it before in DBZ is a piss poor argument

Great point on the Sorbet Ring showing SSGSS Goku can supress his PL to very low levels

[buutenks]

Trunks couldn't sense god ki and said the pressure was overwhelming. And Vegeta was not trying to kill Trunks.

I don't see how it is complicated. Trunks is simply nowhere near god tier.

And Golden Freeza can sense god ki.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Where was that stated? All I remember is the scene with the Oracle Fish where it says (I checked) "so you're finally able to sense the Ki of a God" which doesn't imply him having to be at a certain level and could have just been something he learned.

Nope, it is thanks to his battle power:

Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

Final Form Frieza was about as strong as Base Vegeta but he didn't seem to be able to sense SSJB Goku's power or know that he was a God until he was told. He wouldn't have attacked him if he could tell how strong he was but he did because he said he had to make sure to see if Goku wasn't bluffing or lying.

In fact there's no indication that Frieza could sense that power at all. When he went Golden he said to Goku that he was superior but that'd just be down to his whole cocky attitude like he was spouting back on Namek.

Freeza said he could sense SSB Goku's ki:

Minute: 9

Freeza: "Judging from the energy I'm sensing, it seems that I will be the victor, does it not?"
Goku: "I think it'll be a close match."
Freeza: "No, I am superior."

And there is also Hit, who could sense SSB Goku's ki very accurately, as he could tell exactly how much Goku's power was increasing when he was raising the level of Kaio-ken from x2 to x10.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Since Freeza can sense God Chi in his final form, would that automatically put him above Trunks?

[HeroR]

Since Freeza can sense God Chi in his final form, would that automatically put him above Trunks?

Freeza only specific said that he can sense ki as Golden Freeza, if I recall.

[Krillin1994]

There is no way Future Trunks is post god level.

He got guidance/potentially some training from the Kaioshin to beat Dabura. But he didn't instantly beat Dabura they had a few clashes. That's essentially in line with the level of strength Goku and Vegeta had in the Buu arc.

How might Future Trunks have gotten strong enough to combat god's or even be stronger than a fused SS3?

what feats has he shown us to think that he is god tier? He took a head slam to the ground and being kicked through some trees off of a SSB Vegeta. Hardly Vegeta going all out.

if Trunks was God Tier, then that would mean Black was God Tier. and we know he isn't otherwise Vegeta and Goku wouldn't have said don't worry. A god level opponent would be something to worry about even if they were stronger.

Also if Black were God Tier, Mai would without a doubt be dead.

[dbgtFO]

Also if Black were God Tier, Mai would without a doubt be dead.

Come on now, you were doing so well up till this last part.
God Tier or not Goku-Black could one shot the entire planet, if he wanted to, just like any villain stronger than Freeza.
Mai is just alive because of plot contrivance, not because it proves anything about Goku-Black's lack of God Tier power.

Also I can't believe(oh wait I can)people are seriously arguing Trunks is close to Goku and Vegeta and that SSB is not that much stronger than SS3.

It's just another example of video game logic/plot contrivance. It's clearly stated SSB is much stronger than SS3 and Trunks got one-shotted by that level of power, so by all intents and purposes he should not stand a ghost of a chance against SSB, and yet he isn't instantly one-shotted, because that's just how the fight is written.

They do not follow power level logic at all, accept that, instead of arguing silly nonsense like Vegeta was going all-out, yet still couldn't instantly beat Trunks, thus Trunks' power must be somehow close to that.
The only way to rectify it with power-level logic is that Trunks got stronger, but again just like before it's never mentioned, because it didn't happen just like with Piccolo in the tournament arc.

And now people are going to claim that failure to sense God ki does not mean anything at all? It just goes to show, that people are willing to flip on a table, when their old claims contradict their new claims. If anything it just further supports the 2 base theory or the retcon theory, that somewhere along the line Toriyama decided it would be better to get rid of their ultra strong bases, replace it with SSG to make the chain more simple, which is how it looks like only going by the manga.

I am fine with the power chain just going like this now:

Base < SS < SS2 < SS3 < SSG < SSGSS/SSB.

The anime can work fine with the 2 bases, just means that their stronger base form was only used on a few occasions(everytime they fought in base form and used the white aura). It may not be told, but hey Toei writers might be so terrible they took the old "show, don't tell" adage to the literal extreme and didn't tell us anything, but obviously visually showing us there's a difference.

[Krillin1994]

Also if Black were God Tier, Mai would without a doubt be dead.

Come on now, you were doing so well up till this last part.
God Tier or not Goku-Black could one shot the entire planet, if he wanted to, just like any villain stronger than Freeza.
Mai is just alive because of plot contrivance, not because it proves anything about Goku-Black's lack of God Tier power.

Yeah I regret that final sentence..... and now it's too late to edit it out. I rescind that portion of my argument.




One of my biggest pet peeves is people assuming Future trunks can one shot Gotenks. Since 'Base' Copy Vegeta wrecked him.

and since Goku had to transform to fight Trunks that means Trunks' base must be way way stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

I still stand by outside of BOG there has been no indication that the gold haired SS forms have any god ki within them.

[Chiki]

TheMikado: you also said that Super sucks. I don't agree at all. DBZ for the most part had boring one-dimensional villains like Frieza, Nappa, Cell and Buu and the plot was never really interesting and had mysteries. It was fun, yes, but not interesting. This Black arc has shown me that it is frankly better than anything in DBZ with its interesting mysteries and great writing. It's just good all throughout with great pacing and good writing. I much prefer this over anything we saw in DBZ. The Champa arc was good too, better than the Buu and Cell and imo even the Frieza arcs. Saiyan Saga was the best though.

If youre into boring one-dimensional villains like Broly, then yeah I can see why you'd like DBZ more. But a villain like Zamasu is just much better written than Broly.

Yes the power levels are bullshit but the two base theory fixes everything. More and more people are starting to accept it.

Also one more thing about SSB: since it was said to have perfect ki control it actually makes logical sense why he could suppress his ki to a level below SS3 without SSG power. It really all makes good sense. I'm sure that SSB Vegeta could even suppress himself to Bulma level with the forms perfect ki control.