Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

Look I don't want to make this a Super vs DBZ argument but just the fact that you automatically assume Zamasu is a villain shows that your presumptions in general extend beyond simple theories to the point where if you have an idea you are convinced it is fact. Zamasu has not yet been shown to be an actually villain or the villain of this arc for that matter. But yes, between the characterization of Goku, the power levels, the wasted potential in terms of usage of pretty much every character they've introduced... Yeah like a simple answer on why Cabba and Vegeta share a similar move set would be great, but nothing... Anyway the point I've made is that SSB could be 1 million times stronger than SSJ3 or just 20% (1.2x) and we have no idea. It's utterly ridiculous and it seems like the writers and artists are just as divided on the power scaling as we are.

Furthermore there are no two bases in the anime whether by design or flaw. Both are egregious mistakes in my opinion which denote the overall quality of the show. Either it's poor rewriting or poor quality control.

[Chiki]

The fact that you can even question whether he is a villain or not shows how deep this arc is and much more interesting than any arc in DBZ.

Zamasu is definitely a villain. First, the only difference between his and Black's ki is that the latter is more evil. And we see Zamasu becoming much more evil in this ep. It's implied multiple times.

Third, there is no evidence that the two base theory is false in the anime apart from the fact that it hasn't been mentioned. And that's a shitty argument since Piccolo's insane power boost hasn't been mentioned either if the two base theory is false. Whether you like it or not, when it comes to power levels, Super has terrible writing. So this is not a flaw that is unique to the two base theory.

All the visual evidence from battles suggests that the two base theory is true. Goku not going SS against Hit or Frieza or Copy Vegeta because they are all god levels, Piccolo doing well against Frost, Goku going SS2 against Trunks, etc. There's a mountain of visual evidence from the anime lol.

[Krillin1994]

To be fair the whole Zamasu thing could totally be a bait and switch situation.

People assumed Hit was gonna be this evil villain due to the way he dealt with Frost.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

All the visual evidence from battles suggests that the two base theory is true. Goku not going SS against Hit or Frieza or Copy Vegeta because they are all god levels, Piccolo doing well against Frost, Goku going SS2 against Trunks, etc. There's a mountain of visual evidence from the anime lol.

It doesn't appear like Goku used his God base form against Hit, since he didn't display any aura. Furthermore, in the manga, we know that he definitely didn't use it, and the base Goku vs Hit went the same as in the anime.

[TheMikado]

Chiki, I think you just proved my point, which was you state your theories as fact even when you yourself acknowledge that that fact is in question. I don't understand your position. I am not stating the two base theory is incorrect, I'm stating it is NOT in the anime whether by mistake or design. Therefore applying it to the anime is incorrect.
There is a certain level of nuance there, but it should be self evident. In either case my point to you is that a theory is NOT fact. It's just a theory, and it's ok for it to be just that.

[TheMikado]

To be fair the whole Zamasu thing could totally be a bait and switch situation.

People assumed Hit was gonna be this evil villain due to the way he dealt with Frost.

Exactly, for all we know Zamasu could have been the victim and baited by an evil entity to fuse. There's a ton of possibilities.

[Bullza]

And there is also Hit, who could sense SSB Goku's ki very accurately, as he could tell exactly how much Goku's power was increasing when he was raising the level of Kaio-ken from x2 to x10

Like I said Final Form Frieza was just as strong as those two but he could not sense SSJB Goku's power. At first he just thought he'd turned into a Super Saiyan and if he could have sensed him then there'd have been no need to physically attack in order to gauge how strong he was, he'd just know outright.

There was also no indication in the movie that he could sense that power either.

Hit could sense Goku's power but he's a 1,000 year old being who we know next to nothing about. He could have learnt it in the same way as the others or it may have just been some anime thing because it wasn't in the manga.

There's absolutely no way that SSJ2 Trunks is weaker than Base Goku because the opposite has been shown each and every time and he can't sense that power so there's obviously more to it.

[TheMikado]

There's absolutely no way that SSJ2 Trunks is weaker than Base Goku because the opposite has been shown each and every time and he can't sense that power so there's obviously more to it.

I think that you have a significant portion of the base questioning it either way is the core problem. Something like this should NOT be a dispute.

[Bullza]

what feats has he shown us to think that he is god tier? He took a head slam to the ground and being kicked through some trees off of a SSB Vegeta. Hardly Vegeta going all out.

Plenty.

1. He forced SSJ2 Goku back and forced him to put up his guard whereas Base Goku is strong to the point SSJ3 Gotenks wouldn't be able to even make him move or put his arms up. This was when Trunks wasn't even going all out.

2. SSJ3 Goku's arm was moving when up against the force of Trunks sword. SSJ Goku's arm did not move when he blocked Frosts full forced attack.

3. Beerus said he was good and he wouldn't say that about someone who was Buu level. Goku also said he was amazed how far he'd come.

4. He held his own against Black who he said was slightly stronger than SSJ3 Goku. He also made him put up his guard when he used the Masenko.

5. He reacted to SSJB Vegeta, he dodged his first attack and withstood several attacks whilst remaining conscious whereas SSJ Cabba dropped before he knew what hadhappened from a small punch. SSJB Vegeta was obviously fighting at above SSJ3 level at this point due to him kicking his ass more than Black did and also due to in part to Trunks saying that he was confident they'd beat Black now.

if Trunks was God Tier, then that would mean Black was God Tier. and we know he isn't otherwise Vegeta and Goku wouldn't have said don't worry. A god level opponent would be something to worry about even if they were stronger.

They know they're stronger than him, possibly by a huge amount so there is no need for them to worry as far as they're concerned.

Also if Black were God Tier, Mai would without a doubt be dead.

If Black were King Piccolo Tier she would without a doubt be dead.

[Krillin1994]

Yeah I retracted the Mai death comment.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Like I said Final Form Frieza was just as strong as those two but he could not sense SSJB Goku's power. At first he just thought he'd turned into a Super Saiyan and if he could have sensed him then there'd have been no need to physically attack in order to gauge how strong he was, he'd just know outright.

Final Form Freeza was weaker than base Goku, and base Goku had just reached the level to sense the ki of gods, which would explain why FF Freeza may had not been able to sense SSB Goku's ki. He was close, but still not strong enough.

Hit could sense Goku's power but he's a 1,000 year old being who we know next to nothing about. He could have learnt it in the same way as the others or it may have just been some anime thing because it wasn't in the manga.

What are you talking about? It's not an ability that can been learned, or at least we are not told such a thing so far. So far, it is stated that you have to reach a certain level of power to obtain such an ability.

3. Beerus said he was good and he wouldn't say that about someone who was Buu level. Goku also said he was amazed how far he'd come

He said that about SS2 Vegeta before the rage boost.

The rest of your points work under the assumption that Goku used the power of SSG in his SS2/3 forms.

[Bullza]

Final Form Freeza was weaker than base Goku, and base Goku had just reached the level to sense the ki of gods, which would explain why FF Freeza may had not been able to sense SSB Goku's ki. He was close, but still not strong enough.

But I thought before you told me that Final Form Frieza was actually stronger than Base Goku because it said in the intro that Goku had to use Super Saiyan Blue in order to surpass him? When Goku was said to have just reached that level that was the same day he'd gone to Whis' he'd trained for months after that and got a lot stronger.

What are you talking about? It's not an ability that can been learned, or at least we are not told such a thing so far. So far, it is stated that you have to reach a certain level of power to obtain such an ability.

We barely know how it works, it's never been made that clear. It was also stated that

Whis: “You two! Your heightened ki is spilling out all around you. You must heighten it only within yourselves, so that your opponent can't sense it.”

Which doesn't make it seem as though it has anything to do with them having any sort of unique Ki but just them not letting leak it so there's nothing for there to be sensed. So ideally it should make sense that Trunks couldn't sense him yet that doesn't seem to stop Hit. Hit commented on his power in the anime, I don't recall anything in the manga so maybe it was a goof in the anime.

I'd certainly take what's been shown and said about Trunks over any unclear ideas of how this Godly Ki sensing thing works anyway.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But I thought before you told me that Final Form Frieza was actually stronger than Base Goku because it said in the intro that Goku had to use Super Saiyan Blue in order to surpass him? When Goku was said to have just reached that level that was the same day he'd gone to Whis' he'd trained for months after that and got a lot stronger.

I said that? When?

We barely know how it works, it's never been made that clear.

No, it's been made clear enough. It is stated that you have to be strong enough to sense god ki.

Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

It was also stated that

Whis: “You two! Your heightened ki is spilling out all around you. You must heighten it only within yourselves, so that your opponent can't sense it.”

Which doesn't make it seem as though it has anything to do with them having any sort of unique Ki but just them not letting leak it so there's nothing for there to be sensed. So ideally it should make sense that Trunks couldn't sense him yet that doesn't seem to stop Hit. Hit commented on his power in the anime, I don't recall anything in the manga so maybe it was a goof in the anime.

I'd certainly take what's been shown and said about Trunks over any unclear ideas of how this Godly Ki sensing thing works anyway.

That's a different subject. We are talking about how others sense god ki, not about how to make your ki impossible to be sensed.

[Chiki]

Chiki, I think you just proved my point, which was you state your theories as fact even when you yourself acknowledge that that fact is in question. I don't understand your position.

A fact has to be 100% certain. I won't say it's a fact but I'd say Zamasu being a villain is 99% certain. Imo it would be bad writing if he was just a red herring and, say, Gomasu was the real villain after all this hype. And this arc has had great writing so far.

Also there is a DB Heroes trailer which basically proves Zamasu is a villain.

A fact would be, say, the two base theory being true in the manga since it can be mathematically proven via definitions and formal logic.

I am not stating the two base theory is incorrect, I'm stating it is NOT in the anime whether by mistake or design.

And why not?

Exactly, for all we know Zamasu could have been the victim and baited by an evil entity to fuse. There's a ton of possibilities.

Sure it could be possible. It's just very unlikely.

It doesn't appear like Goku used his God base form against Hit, since he didn't display any aura. Furthermore, in the manga, we know that he definitely didn't use it, and the base Goku vs Hit went the same as in the anime.

Maybe, but I find it hard to believe that Base Cabba could do what Goku did to Hit and Cabba should be equal to Base Goku without SSG. Goku took a lot of hits from Hit and so did SSB Vegeta. I doubt Cabba could do that.

The anime is never consistent with that sort of thing anyway so it could just be a mistake.

[TheMikado]

A fact has to be 100% certain. I won't say it's a fact but I'd say Zamasu being a villain is 99% certain. Imo it would be bad writing if he was just a red herring and, say, Gomasu was the real villain after all this hype. And this arc has had great writing so far.

Actually the opposite would be true. Zamasu being evil would make little sense in terms of foreshadowing.
No where are we shown that he is evil or sadistic, in fact the contrary and believes peace should be achieved by wiping out the evil and violent. He totalitarian, NOT evil. Goku even senses as much.

Even in the opening preview we see images of Zamasu appearing to fall and in contemplation while Black looks pure evil and sadist. It's far more likely Black is not what he wanted at all, he started it but is now helpless to stop it.

[Bullza]

He said that about SS2 Vegeta before the rage boost.

Where exactly? I see him calling him utterly pathetic when he first attacked him and after the rage boost he says he's too weak to be Super Saiyan God.

The rest of your points work under the assumption that Goku used the power of SSG in his SS2/3 forms.

That's not really an assumption. We know for a fact that Super Saiyan Goku is as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku as of the BoG arc. We also just recently had Gowasu saying that Super Saiyan 2 Goku's power rivals that of a God of Destruction (which he sort of does to an extent). It'd be an assumption to say he's any weaker especially when we also know his Base form is much more powerful than his old regular Super Saiyan form.

I said that? When?

I don't know. May not have even been you who said it but someone here brought up how Frieza was stronger than Base Goku because the narrator said that in order to surpass Frieza, Goku mutated into a new form.

That's a different subject. We are talking about how others sense god ki, not about how to make your ki impossible to be sensed.

But if Super Saiyan Blue is Goku and Vegeta not letting their Ki leak out making them unable to be sensed, then that's why Trunks can't sense them because there's nothing for him to sense as opposed to being too weak which we know he isn't.

The ability to sense God Ki or not is not consistent or clear enough for there to be much of a say in how strong someone is. Base Goku could sense SSJB Vegeta and SSJ2 Trunks could not which you seem to suggest means that Base Goku is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks but Goku has God power within himself and Trunks does not and if SSJ2 Trunks was weaker than Base Goku then he should not be able to force these people to put up their guard nor withstand attacks from or react to people who are hundreds of times more powerful.

[Chiki]

A fact has to be 100% certain. I won't say it's a fact but I'd say Zamasu being a villain is 99% certain. Imo it would be bad writing if he was just a red herring and, say, Gomasu was the real villain after all this hype. And this arc has had great writing so far.

Actually the opposite would be true. Zamasu being evil would make little sense in terms of foreshadowing.
No where are we shown that he is evil or sadistic, in fact the contrary and believes peace should be achieved by wiping out the evil and violent. He totalitarian, NOT evil. Goku even senses as much.

Even in the opening preview we see images of Zamasu appearing to fall and in contemplation while Black looks pure evil and sadist. It's far more likely Black is not what he wanted at all, he started it but is now helpless to stop it.

Black has the same views as Zamasu though, just more extreme. The first thing Black said when he arrived on Earth was "I will exterminate humans for the sake of justice."

And then there's the DB Heroes trailer where Zamasu watches Black and Goku fight with a smile on his face. Regardless this is off topic so I'll drop it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Where exactly? I see him calling him utterly pathetic when he first attacked him and after the rage boost he says he's too weak to be Super Saiyan God.

In the movie, he said that Vegeta had good fighting sense (just before Gotenks appeared).

That's not really an assumption. We know for a fact that Super Saiyan Goku is as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku as of the BoG arc. We also just recently had Gowasu saying that Super Saiyan 2 Goku's power rivals that of a God of Destruction (which he sort of does to an extent). It'd be an assumption to say he's any weaker especially when we also know his Base form is much more powerful than his old regular Super Saiyan form.

Gowasu seems to be saying that because he was told that Goku survived his fight with Beerus, now because he compared their powers. I mean, is SS2 & SS3 Goku x2 & x8 stronger than SSG? If so, why didn't Goku use SS2 or SS3 against Beerus? Also, as of BoG, base Goku is only slightly weaker than SSG & regular SS with SSG power.

I don't know. May not have even been you who said it but someone here brought up how Frieza was stronger than Base Goku because the narrator said that in order to surpass Frieza, Goku mutated into a new form.

I don't think it was me, but even if I did in the past, I don't believe so anymore.

But if Super Saiyan Blue is Goku and Vegeta not letting their Ki leak out making them unable to be sensed, then that's why Trunks can't sense them because there's nothing for him to sense as opposed to being too weak which we know he isn't.

If that was the case, no one would have been able to sense god ki.

The ability to sense God Ki or not is not consistent or clear enough for there to be much of a say in how strong someone is.

If we go by the idea that Goku has 2 base forms, which is heavily implied, it is very consistent.

[Lionel]

Zamasu has been surprisingly elaborate for a DB villain. Yes Black seems to be the most logical end result for the mindset he's developing, but his doubts and grievances paint him as having a little bit of greyness to his character.

With regards to Final Form Freeza -- I think it's reasonable to conclude that Future Trunks is stronger than him. In fact, I would say that the bigger question is which of Freeza's two forms he's closer to, his fourth form or the Golden form?

[Bullza]

In the movie, he said that Vegeta had good fighting sense (just before Gotenks appeared).

Oh right. Well within the same continuity he called SSJ2 Vegeta utterly pathetic and SSJ2 Trunks pretty good. That says a lot.

Gowasu seems to be saying that because he was told that Goku survived his fight with Beerus, now because he compared their powers. I mean, is SS2 & SS3 Goku x2 & x8 stronger than SSG? If so, why didn't Goku use SS2 or SS3 against Beerus? Also, as of BoG, base Goku is only slightly weaker than SSG & regular SS with SSG power.

He made his comment the moment Goku began to overwhelm Zamasu and he shouldn't have been so surprised if he'd just been told. At this point he should be over twice as strong as the guy who gave Beerus a really good fight so I don't see the problem with the comment. Why he didn't use those forms against Beerus, well in the movie he didn't even realise he'd reverted until the last the very end.

In the series? I dunno, they were just sticking with what the movie did and Toriyama said we probably wouldn't even see those forms again. Base Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and SSJ Goku is as strong as SSJG Goku about. It's what we've seen and nothing goes against it.

If that was the case, no one would have been able to sense god ki.

Well that's what Whis said and it obviously had something to do with SSJB and most can't sense it yet Hit could. Unless it was just a mistake on the Toei side then I don't know. The humans couldn't sense SSJG and they couldn't sense SSJB either but only the SSJB appears to have anything to do with not leaking Ki so does that mean they can't be sensed for two different reasons? Is the stuff about them not leaking Ki out the goof as that's never been mentioned since. Who knows.

If we go by the idea that Goku has 2 base forms, which is heavily implied, it is very consistent.

That's never been implied anywhere and certainly hasn't been said. We know Base Goku was much stronger than regular Super Saiyan levels after the Beerus fight, with the Frieza fight, during their training after the Frieza fight, with the Beerus in Monaka costume fight, with the SSJ3 Gotenks fight.

There's been nothing that implies that this isn't just a permanent strength boost that he had. And I don't mean things that are being misinterpreted like "but Piccolo seemed to be stronger than Base Goku going by the Frost fight" which was explained or anything like "but it doesn't make sense for Base Cabba to be God level".

There's nothing, I don't know what more they could do to kill this theory off. It's never been mentioned, not in interviews, the anime, the movies or the manga. It's not been implied in any significant way. There's no visual cue. We've been shown multiple times that they've definitely powered up. Why is it still a thing?