Why Couldn't Gohan Go Super Saiyan 2?

[Tectorman]

Gohan only ever learned to trigger SSJ2 using his emotions. That's what he did versus Cell. And he was still coming off of that anger high from Videl getting beat up when he faced off against Kibito. The fight with Dabra was, apparently, sufficiently later enough that he had cooled down to the point where he just didn't have any intense emotions to draw on. He knew the stakes intellectually, but he didn't feel it. He could try to make himself feel it, but he tried to make himself be angry back in the Cell Games, too. Before Cell crushed 16's head, it didn't work for him then, either. That sort of anger apparently has to come naturally.

Slightly related...
[spoiler]Has anyone else given serious thought to the notion that Gohan had SSJ2 available to himself immediately prior to the appearance of the Elder Kai, or is it just me?

Goku declared both himself and Vegeta (as SSJ2s) to not be a match for Fat Buu. But after they broke the Z Sword, he only expressed doubt that Gohan was powerful enough to beat Fat Buu, as opposed to the near-certainty he had expressed earlier regarding himself and Vegeta.

I take that to mean that Gohan, post-Z-Sword and pre-Mystic-Ritual, was stronger than Goku's SSJ2 by some amount. So that's either with SSJ (meaning Gohan got over twice as strong in a day, not impossible but unlikely given the incremental gains at this point in the series) or with SSJ2 (which would require that Gohan have done something to make it a more reliable part of his repertoire, possibly having Goku teach him the method that he and Vegeta used).

I think that, while he was training with the Z Sword, Gohan also got coached by Goku to use SSJ2 via training rather than by the intense emotions that he used to use. And then this effort got overshadowed by the Elder Kai's ritual, which is why it never got mentioned. Anyone else ever thought about it?[/spoiler]

[MaxZ]

ugh

Gohan could become SSJ2 at will in the Buu Saga. the lack of Sparks is an error on Toriyama's part, he makes mistakes all the time.

if Gohan wasn't SSJ2 he'd have been stomped by Dabura in one hit.

[Desassina]

You can say that he was reaching out to SSJ2, but not exactly using it, because it slipped from when he transformed. Does it matter when a fully powered SSJ should be close, if not the same as the weakest SSJ2? I gave you an example of how it could happen in the previous page, by using a fluid range that transforms the characters once they're past a certain limit. Gohan was simply not as weak as a SSJ, but the art doesn't make him a SSJ2. How do you balance those facts?

[Khin]

mistake on Toriyama's part.

No it's not. Toriyama is very consistent in differentiating the Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan in the manga. And as you can see in the image i posted before. Super Saiyan Gohan had his Super Saiyan 2 hair in the tournament. Indicating that Toriyama had changed his hair design for Super Saiyan. You can also see this in the RoF Arc, where SSj Gohan had only 1 strand of his hair, like his former SSj2 hair.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Gohan could become SSJ2 at will in the Buu Saga.

It was implied that Gohan needed enough anger to draw out his full power. He was able to turn into Super Saiyan 2 in the tournament because his anger for Spopovich is still fresh. Whereas against Dabra, he's not angry enough. Gohan tried to became angry enough multiple times, but he was unsuccessful.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

if Gohan wasn't SSJ2 he'd have been stomped by Dabura in one hit.

Vegeta spouted multiple times how Dabra is nothing to him/them, and Goku seems to agree. Later on, Goku was surprised that Vegeta had also achieved Super Saiyan 2. Implying Vegeta and Goku in their regular Super Saiyan state can beat Dabra. Not to mention Dabra was greatly implied to be on the same level as Perfect Cell (Probably the Cell that fought Goku).

[MaxZ]

mistake on Toriyama's part.

No it's not. Toriyama is very consistent in differentiating the Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan in the manga. And as you can see in the image i posted before. Super Saiyan Gohan had his Super Saiyan 2 hair in the tournament. Indicating that Toriyama had changed his hair design for Super Saiyan. You can also see this in the RoF Arc, where SSj Gohan had only 1 strand of his hair, like his former SSj2 hair.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Gohan could become SSJ2 at will in the Buu Saga.

It was implied that Gohan needed enough anger to draw out his full power. He was able to turn into Super Saiyan 2 in the tournament because his anger for Spopovich is still fresh. Whereas against Dabra, he's not angry enough. Gohan tried to became angry enough multiple times, but he was unsuccessful.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

if Gohan wasn't SSJ2 he'd have been stomped by Dabura in one hit.

Vegeta spouted multiple times how Dabra is nothing to him/them, and Goku seems to agree. Later on, Goku was surprised that Vegeta had also achieved Super Saiyan 2. Implying Vegeta and Goku in their regular Super Saiyan state can beat Dabra. Not to mention Dabra was greatly implied to be on the same level as Perfect Cell (Probably the Cell that fought Goku).

A regular Super Saiyan can't beat Cell. Gohan was trying to release his potential, but that doesn't mean he wasn't already a SSJ2. He wasn't at full power but he was SSJ2 already.

[Xeztin]

I believe because Gohan never trained it he can't use it at will like Super Saiyan 1. I have a gut feeling that Black will end up killing Videl and we'll probably see a Super Saiyan 2 Gohan again (Or something beyond it)

[Khin]

A regular Super Saiyan can't beat Cell.

What Cell ? Perfect Cell ? There is nothing that indicates that Super Saiyan Goku or Vegeta still can't defeat Perfect Cell by the Buu Arc. As for the Dabra comparison. We don't know what version of Cell Goku was talking about, as the whole line is incredibly vague. But from my own view, it seems like he was referring to the Cell he fought, since that should be the Cell he knew the most. And i believe even a rusty Gohan should still be stronger than that Cell.

Gohan was trying to release his potential, but that doesn't mean he wasn't already a SSJ2. He wasn't at full power but he was SSJ2 already.

Nothing really implies that Gohan was Super Saiyan 2 in the manga. The only implication is the hair stuff, but i already showed a reason why Gohan's hair is like that. Gohan didn't train for 7 years, why would he able to turn into Super Saiyan 2 freely when he only the form once ? He was able to turn into Super Saiyan 2 against Kibito because his anger towards Spopovich is still fresh. But he calmed down after that and that's why he wasn't able to turn into Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra. At least that's what i think.

[Lord Beerus]

I've always had a theory that the time he transformed into a SSJ2 in front of Kibito at the WMAT he, in a way, maxed out the reservoir of energy he had separately stored that would allow him to transform in the form with needing to get necessarily angry.

[ahill1]

You know the words of Goku to him before he gights Majin Vegeta.

He had no problem going against Kibito and maybe against Dabura So why exactly did he had to remember the stuff Goku said to traensform into 2 against Majin Buu?

'Cause Toriyama is a massive troll, stripping poor Gohan from his badass SS2 form to make Goku and Vegeta look even more badass in comparison.
In-universe everyone just forgot that Gohan actually did become a SS2 at the tournament and so Super Saiyan is all everyone thinks he can do without getting angry.

In Babidi's spaceship, Kaioshin mentioned how hard was to paralyze Gohan:


Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: after Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being that great
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”


I highly doubt Akira Toriyama forgot considering that.

[dbgtFO]

You know the words of Goku to him before he gights Majin Vegeta.

He had no problem going against Kibito and maybe against Dabura So why exactly did he had to remember the stuff Goku said to traensform into 2 against Majin Buu?

'Cause Toriyama is a massive troll, stripping poor Gohan from his badass SS2 form to make Goku and Vegeta look even more badass in comparison.
In-universe everyone just forgot that Gohan actually did become a SS2 at the tournament and so Super Saiyan is all everyone thinks he can do without getting angry.

In Babidi's spaceship, Kaioshin mentioned how hard was to paralyze Gohan:


Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: after Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being that great
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”


I highly doubt Akira Toriyama forgot considering that.

I never claimed Toriyama forgot anything.

[Hitiro]

A regular Super Saiyan can't beat Cell. Gohan was trying to release his potential, but that doesn't mean he wasn't already a SSJ2. He wasn't at full power but he was SSJ2 already.

That's debatable because Gohan, when he fought Cell, was originally trying not to fight. He was trying to spare Cell. During the battle he was highly unmotivated to fight Cell as a SSJ. But he still managed to knock down Cell who was using his full speed while being unmotivated to fight. I would say that if Gohan actually tried against Cell he may not have even needed SSJ2. But that's just my opinion. Regardless, SSJ Gohan was much closer to fighting on par with Cell back then. And as others have said, Goku was shocked that Vegeta had obtained SSJ2 when he demonstrated it. If it really took a SSJ2 to take on Dabura, who was as strong or stronger than Cell(Before his Zenkai), then why would Goku later be surprised that Vegeta could go SSJ2? Surely he would have realised there and then Vegeta could use SSJ2 if it really took a SSJ2 to beat Dabura? Because Vegeta said that he or Goku could have beat him.

[MaxZ]

A regular Super Saiyan can't beat Cell. Gohan was trying to release his potential, but that doesn't mean he wasn't already a SSJ2. He wasn't at full power but he was SSJ2 already.

That's debatable because Gohan, when he fought Cell, was originally trying not to fight. He was trying to spare Cell. During the battle he was highly unmotivated to fight Cell as a SSJ. But he still managed to knock down Cell who was using his full speed while being unmotivated to fight. I would say that if Gohan actually tried against Cell he may not have even needed SSJ2. But that's just my opinion. Regardless, SSJ Gohan was much closer to fighting on par with Cell back then. And as others have said, Goku was shocked that Vegeta had obtained SSJ2 when he demonstrated it. If it really took a SSJ2 to take on Dabura, who was as strong or stronger than Cell(Before his Zenkai), then why would Goku later be surprised that Vegeta could go SSJ2? Surely he would have realised there and then Vegeta could use SSJ2 if it really took a SSJ2 to beat Dabura? Because Vegeta said that he or Goku could have beat him.

I agree that Gohan was holding back significantly as a SSJ1 against Cell, though I'm not certain he could beat Cell without going SSJ2. But the fact that he was holding back prior to transforming is why he seemed to be so far above Cell despite SSJ2 only supposedly being 2x stronger than SSJ1.

as for Vegeta, Goku could have just been surprised by the power he had as a Majin, idk. I might have to rewatch the scene.

[Hitiro]

I agree that Gohan was holding back significantly as a SSJ1 against Cell, though I'm not certain he could beat Cell without going SSJ2. But the fact that he was holding back prior to transforming is why he seemed to be so far above Cell despite SSJ2 only supposedly being 2x stronger than SSJ1.

as for Vegeta, Goku could have just been surprised by the power he had as a Majin, idk. I might have to rewatch the scene.

If it had been Gohan holding back and knocking down Cell while Cell was also holding back I would say so. But Cell specifically says he was going to go all out in speed. So the fact that Gohan managed to catch Cell and knock him down while Cell was using his full speed and Gohan was not motivated to try really tells me that had Gohan actually been gunning to fight from the start he may no have needed to transform after all. But again, that's my opinion.

With Vegeta though, Goku should know how strong Vegeta is from his SSJ form. So I don't see why he should be shocked. Something like "This is how strong Vegeta is as a SSJ. So his SSJ2 form is 2x stronger." so I really don't think it was a strength thing because he could already sense Vegeta as a SSJ. I genuinely think he was surprised that Vegeta also got to the SSJ2 level.

[Son_Gohan]

If it had been Gohan holding back and knocking down Cell while Cell was also holding back I would say so. But Cell specifically says he was going to go all out in speed. So the fact that Gohan managed to catch Cell and knock him down while Cell was using his full speed and Gohan was not motivated to try really tells me that had Gohan actually been gunning to fight from the start he may no have needed to transform after all. But again, that's my opinion.

With Vegeta though, Goku should know how strong Vegeta is from his SSJ form. So I don't see why he should be shocked. Something like "This is how strong Vegeta is as a SSJ. So his SSJ2 form is 2x stronger." so I really don't think it was a strength thing because he could already sense Vegeta as a SSJ. I genuinely think he was surprised that Vegeta also got to the SSJ2 level.

But that wasn't even Cell at his full power, all that implies is SSJ Gohan was comparable to a significantly suppressed Perfect Cell.

Goku was shown to be surprised after Vegeta tells him the reason he let himself become possessed was because of the power boost that came with Babidi's spell, which would indicate Goku never took that into account earlier.

[MCDaveG]

I am fine with the explanation that he is lazy nerd.
After I've stopped playing baseball and bike riding regularly, I've got a belly slightly from beer drinking and also can't go SSJ2 (hell, I can't even go SSJ...).
Tough still have good physique, I have to man up and do something more. There is a gym at work, so I will probably hit it in a month.

[Hitiro]

But that wasn't even Cell at his full power, all that implies is SSJ Gohan was comparable to a significantly suppressed Perfect Cell.

Goku was shown to be surprised after Vegeta tells him the reason he let himself become possessed was because of the power boost that came with Babidi's spell, which would indicate Goku never took that into account earlier.

That wasn't Cell using his full power, I never stated as such, but it was him using his maximum speed, Cell states this.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

So if and unmotivated Gohan could keep up and knock Cell down while Cell was using his maximum speed then chances are Gohan's maximum speed, while motivated, outranks Cell's maximum speed. And if Gohan's speed outranks Cells it is highly likely that Gohan outranks Cell in strength too. And even if he didn't speed is the most important factor in a fight. If Gohan can knock Cell about while Cell can't hit Gohan then Gohan is going to win.

Goku was specifically surprised when Vegeta turned SSJ2. Sure Goku was surprised later when Vegeta tells him the reason but he was also shocked when he transformed into a SSJ2. And given that Vegeta was a SSJ not moments ago, there is no reason for Goku to be surprise by Vegeta's battle power doubling from what it currently was if Goku knew for a fact that Vegeta could go SSJ2 already.

[MaxZ]

But that wasn't even Cell at his full power, all that implies is SSJ Gohan was comparable to a significantly suppressed Perfect Cell.

Goku was shown to be surprised after Vegeta tells him the reason he let himself become possessed was because of the power boost that came with Babidi's spell, which would indicate Goku never took that into account earlier.

That wasn't Cell using his full power, I never stated as such, but it was him using his maximum speed, Cell states this.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

So if and unmotivated Gohan could keep up and knock Cell down while Cell was using his maximum speed then chances are Gohan's maximum speed, while motivated, outranks Cell's maximum speed. And if Gohan's speed outranks Cells it is highly likely that Gohan outranks Cell in strength too. And even if he didn't speed is the most important factor in a fight. If Gohan can knock Cell about while Cell can't hit Gohan then Gohan is going to win.

While there is a strong point to be made there, it should be noted that Cell is unimpressed by Gohan's strength while the Cell Jrs are attacking the Z Fighters, prior to Gohan ascending.

[Hitiro]

While there is a strong point to be made there, it should be noted that Cell is unimpressed by Gohan's strength while the Cell Jrs are attacking the Z Fighters, prior to Gohan ascending.

Why should he be impressed? You have to remember that Trunks, Vegeta and mostly Piccolo were all doing fairly well at fighting the Cell Jrs during this time. These characters were all shocked at how powerful SSJ Goku was and SSJ Gohan was even more superior to Goku and them. So Gohan probably didn't have to use his SSJ2 strength when he attacked them really. The difference between SSJ Gohan and the rest may have already been substantial enough for him to do those feats had he been motivated.

[jplaya2023]

gohan NEVER mastered SSJ2, hence him needing intense rage to access the form.

In the 7 year gap from cell to buu gohan never even turned ssj let alone ssj2

[Kishido]

gohan NEVER mastered SSJ2, hence him needing intense rage to access the form.

In the 7 year gap from cell to buu gohan never even turned ssj let alone ssj2

OK Toriyama... Thanks for the clarification and from now on I will ignore that he had no problems being a Super Saiyan as Great Saiyaman or while training Goten.

Not to forget even asking Kibito to move further turning Super Saiyan 2