Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

Manga: Base-->Super Saiyan-->Super Saiyan God-->Super Saiyan Blue

Anime: Base-->Super Saiyan-->Super Saiyan 2-->Super Saiyan 3-->Super Saiyan Blue

This is correct and what I've been trying to tell everyone. The power levels are literally completely different in the anime vs the manga! You can't compare them or apply the same theory to both!

[Chiki]

Toyotaro wanted a form strong enough to force Hit to use his full power. Super Saiyan God surpasses Super Saiyan, which surpasses Base.

Erm... SSB?

Manga: Base-->Super Saiyan-->Super Saiyan God-->Super Saiyan Blue

Anime: Base-->Super Saiyan-->Super Saiyan 2-->Super Saiyan 3-->Super Saiyan Blue

This is correct and what I've been trying to tell everyone. The power levels are literally completely different in the anime vs the manga! You can't compare them or apply the same theory to both!

They aren't necessarily completely different, though. Really, if you believe in the two base theory in the anime, which is:

Anime: Base > Super Saiyan > 2 > 3 >>>> Saiyan Beyond God > Super Saiyan Blue

Piccolo, Cabba, Magetta, Frost and Trunks all have the same power level.

The only part where they differ is Hit, maybe Beerus and Whis (depends on whether you want to include Kaioken x10 or not which is filler and non-canon for sure).

[TheMikado]

You can force either theory into the other, but that's not the way they are presented.

[Chiki]

You can force either theory into the other, but that's not the way they are presented.

Um, I think there's a lot of presentational evidence for the two base theory, so that's not going to cut it.

We just don't know what exactly the writers are trying to convey with the presentation. That's the problem. Bad writing.

[TheMikado]

You can force either theory into the other, but that's not the way they are presented.

Um, I think there's a lot of presentational evidence for the two base theory, so that's not going to cut it.

We just don't know what exactly the writers are trying to convey with the presentation. That's the problem. Bad writing.

Well no, you've had 3 seperate arcs present base or SSJ without any special indication or statements where they are presented as being at or exceeding SSG. You can argue over whether they meant to or not but they clearly. Deliberately, and repeated presented base and SSJ at at least SSG levels.

[Chiki]

You can force either theory into the other, but that's not the way they are presented.

Um, I think there's a lot of presentational evidence for the two base theory, so that's not going to cut it.

We just don't know what exactly the writers are trying to convey with the presentation. That's the problem. Bad writing.

Well no, you've had 3 seperate arcs present base or SSJ without any special indication or statements where they are presented as being at or exceeding SSG. You can argue over whether they meant to or not but they clearly. Deliberately, and repeated presented base and SSJ at at least SSG levels.

Presentations depend on how you interpret them. That only follows if you think Piccolo is above Base SSG Goku, Cabba Frost Magetta are also gods, etc.

[TheMikado]

^ exactly. Basically the idea of two bases does not exist in the anime because it's not presented at all in anyway shape or form. There is no presentation of a seperate base in the anime because it doesn't exist there and everything about a 2nd base is deductive reasoning. Basically there are people arguing that it isn't presented in the anime and they are correct because that's true. The most it can be is deduced in the anime where in the manga it is actually shown. They same could also be said the other way in that in the manga Gokus base is actually not SSG level and when he goes SSG it's even stronger than it was before.

[Chiki]

^ exactly. Basically the idea of two bases does not exist in the anime because it's not presented at all in anyway shape or form. There is no presentation of a seperate base in the anime because it doesn't exist there and everything about a 2nd base is deductive reasoning. Basically there are people arguing that it isn't presented in the anime and they are correct because that's true. The most it can be is deduced in the anime where in the manga it is actually shown. They same could also be said the other way in that in the manga Gokus base is actually not SSG level and when he goes SSG it's even stronger than it was before.

No, I'm saying that the two bases can exist in the anime depending on your beliefs which can influence the way things are presented.

For example, suppose I am a Christian and I see a serial killer get struck by lightning. To a Christian, they could consider that a presentation of divine retribution. Suppose I am an atheist and I see the same thing. I could think that is a presentation of nothing in particular, just bad luck.

[TheMikado]

I'm not trying to make this a debate. The two base theory in the anime requires you the state there is a quantifiable difference in the bases depending on the situation but with no in universe indicator that effect. Again I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I am saying it is literally not in the anime at all either by mistake or by design. That has to be accepted as fact.

Again I'm not arguing whether it should be or not, but that it was plain not written into the anime. Even you have to concede on that. Maybe Toei goofed big time, maybe Toriyama when off outline. Who knows but the anime is not written where it has two bases and even the filler is made to reenforce that view point of super strong regular bases.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Since I just think everyone as a whole are a lot more powerful, I've learned to accept that guys like Piccolo simply don't make sense. I just don't think Piccolo's important enough to nerf everyone else in the process. Instead, I just say his battle smarts allowed him to not get knocked out so easily. Overall, the power levels are stupid huge, but I'm good with that.

[Bullza]

They made it pretty clear that Piccolo's strategic intelligence was the reason why he held up so well against someone he was supposed to have no chance of beating. I don't think he got drastically stronger since the Resurrection F arc really. He just pulled a Batman.

People always said they missed fights where it was about strategy and not about whoever had the higher power level and we finally get a fight like that and....we've had to hear about this two base nonsense ever since.

[Cipher]

Seriously. Trunks did nothing to Super Saiyan 2 Goku. He just block, caught Trunks' fists, and then one-shotted him as a Super Saiyan 3. There was nothing even remotely shown that Trunks was Goku's equal. Base form Cabba knocked Vegeta back, landed hits, and pushed back Vegeta's energy attack.

And Piccolo only stood a remote chance against Frost because Goku beat the shit out of him to the point he could barely stand, Piccolo used a technique that killed someone three times stronger than him, and Frost fought Piccolo with kid's gloves that Piccolo mocked him on.

Why is context lost here?

Just so you know you're not shouting into a void -- I don't often check this thread and am not interested in power rankings beyond being able to make sense of the series' narrative -- but I agree. Nothing to me has indicated Piccolo, Trunks, or others have seen massive power increases from the end of the Boo arc. Trunks' amazement at powers greater than Super Saiyan 2 doubles down on this.

What the series is convoluted regarding is Goku and Vegeta's use of lower Super Saiyan forms. Really, everything stems from 1) Dialogue about Goku's body inheriting power from Super Saiyan God/his ability to fight Beerus as a Super Saiyan, and 2) Goku outmatching final form Freeza in base form (when characters like Gohan and Piccolo were unable to lift a finger against Freeza's first form).

So, when he and Vegeta use Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 later on, have opponents really pushed them that far, or are they drastically reducing their power and just testing things out? In certain cases, I could accept the former (Frost, maaaaaybe Magetta and Cabba, though I could go either way), but in others (Trunks) it pretty much has to be the latter -- Super Saiyan 2 and 3 just for show? Two bases? These remain the show's poorly explained mysteries.

That does make some characters' relative power hard to pin down, namely the Universe 6 characters and Black, as well as whatever the he hell is going on with Goku and Vegeta in lower forms. But it's never made Trunks or Piccolo's power questionable to me.

[Hugo Boss]

Two different bases, Base and SSG. If you define normal form as non-Super Saiyan form, then those would be his two forms. Why else would Toyotaro feel the need to include SSG which isn't in the anime?

Toyotaro wanted a form strong enough to force Hit to use his full power. Super Saiyan God surpasses Super Saiyan, which surpasses Base.

The anime shows SSJ as stronger than SSG. The manga shows the opposite. Most think the base is as strong if not stronger than SSG.

Based on what? The only time SS was close to SSG in the anime was when Goku and Beerus fought on Earth. After that, Super Saiyan Blue was said to have surpassed Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan. And finally Super Saiyan Blue is stronger than SS3, SS2, SS and Base.

[TheMikado]

So is current SSJ stronger or weaker than SSG?

[Hugo Boss]

So is current SSJ stronger or weaker than SSG?

No way to tell in the anime. In the manga SS is weaker than SSG.

Toyotaro wanted a form strong enough to force Hit to use his full power. Super Saiyan God surpasses Super Saiyan, which surpasses Base.

Erm... SSB?

Sure, as long as Hit doesn't use his true skill. SSG was capable of forcing Hit to use his full power, which would likely dominate SSG, and Goku responded to that by mutating into SSB, which was dominating Hit at full power.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The way I see it, Super Saiyan Goku is now stronger than his Super Saiyan God power from the BoG saga. Some think the power faded from Goku after fighting Beers, but I don't see a reason to believe it did.

So if I had to do a comparison: Super Saiyan Blue>Super Saiyan 3>Super Saiyan 2>Super Saiyan>Super Saiyan God

Since Super Saiyan God no longer exists in the anime, I believe the form served its purpose by boosting Goku's power altogether once he merged with the power.

[Chiki]

So is current SSJ stronger or weaker than SSG?

No way to tell in the anime. In the manga SS is weaker than SSG.

Toyotaro wanted a form strong enough to force Hit to use his full power. Super Saiyan God surpasses Super Saiyan, which surpasses Base.

Erm... SSB?

Sure, as long as Hit doesn't use his true skill. SSG was capable of forcing Hit to use his full power, which would likely dominate SSG, and Goku responded to that by mutating into SSB, which was dominating Hit at full power.

But, since the gap between SSJ and SSG is absolutely massive, how is the two base theory not necessary then?

[Bullza]

But, since the gap between SSJ and SSG is absolutely massive, how is the two base theory not necessary then?

We don't know if the difference is massive. SSJ Goku fought evenly against a serious suppressed Hit, Beerus said he had the edge in power but Goku having to predict dozens of attacks instantly meant that Goku was getting tired faster.

Super Saiyan God Goku was stronger in that he was able to overpower Hit but not to the extent that he one shotted Hit. He had some scratches on him but he got up quick enough.

[Hugo Boss]

Sure, as long as Hit doesn't use his true skill. SSG was capable of forcing Hit to use his full power, which would likely dominate SSG, and Goku responded to that by mutating into SSB, which was dominating Hit at full power.

But, since the gap between SSJ and SSG is absolutely massive, how is the two base theory not necessary then?

Why does it matter how much different they are?

[buutenks]

You all are running in circles.