Why Couldn't Gohan Go Super Saiyan 2?

[jplaya2023]

gohan NEVER mastered SSJ2, hence him needing intense rage to access the form.

In the 7 year gap from cell to buu gohan never even turned ssj let alone ssj2

OK Toriyama... Thanks for the clarification and from now on I will ignore that he had no problems being a Super Saiyan as Great Saiyaman or while training Goten.

Not to forget even asking Kibito to move further turning Super Saiyan 2

he mastered SSJ hence him transforming easy (Although he was incensed by videl getting mud stomped)

He was still angry about videl and he used his anger to reach ssj2. If you read further into the Boo saga Gohan will come out and say he can't get as angry as he used to anymore to draw out his latent powers. He is referring to cell games and tournament.

[Kishido]

gohan NEVER mastered SSJ2, hence him needing intense rage to access the form.

In the 7 year gap from cell to buu gohan never even turned ssj let alone ssj2

OK Toriyama... Thanks for the clarification and from now on I will ignore that he had no problems being a Super Saiyan as Great Saiyaman or while training Goten.

Not to forget even asking Kibito to move further turning Super Saiyan 2

he mastered SSJ hence him transforming easy (Although he was incensed by videl getting mud stomped)

He was still angry about videl and he used his anger to reach ssj2. If you read further into the Boo saga Gohan will come out and say he can't get as angry as he used to anymore to draw out his latent powers. He is referring to cell games and tournament.

Actually that's not what I meant with my post but HOW you are posting.

[Son_Gohan]

That wasn't Cell using his full power, I never stated as such, but it was him using his maximum speed, Cell states this.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

So if and unmotivated Gohan could keep up and knock Cell down while Cell was using his maximum speed then chances are Gohan's maximum speed, while motivated, outranks Cell's maximum speed. And if Gohan's speed outranks Cells it is highly likely that Gohan outranks Cell in strength too. And even if he didn't speed is the most important factor in a fight. If Gohan can knock Cell about while Cell can't hit Gohan then Gohan is going to win.

Goku was specifically surprised when Vegeta turned SSJ2. Sure Goku was surprised later when Vegeta tells him the reason but he was also shocked when he transformed into a SSJ2. And given that Vegeta was a SSJ not moments ago, there is no reason for Goku to be surprise by Vegeta's battle power doubling from what it currently was if Goku knew for a fact that Vegeta could go SSJ2 already.

When Cell says that he actually catches Gohan, the scene you're referring to where he knocks Cell down occurs a while after and we don't even know if he's going all-out in speed anymore. I don't think so, when Goku was expressed to be at full power his aura appeared, therefore, the same should apply to Gohan when he powers up at the start of the match. And since a Full Power Super Saiyan Gohan couldn't tank a suppressed Cell's attacks, he should be nowhere near Full Power Perfect Cell.

Vegeta made it known earlier that Goku & himself are now stronger than Gohan, and that couldn't be the case if he didn't have SSJ2. What we're shown is that Goku was unaware of the power boost that Babidi's spell granted until Vegeta tells him, while Goku mentions nothing about being unaware that Vegeta surpassed Super Saiyan. So the context should speak for itself.

[Hitiro]

When Cell says that he actually catches Gohan, the scene you're referring to where he knocks Cell down occurs a while after and we don't even know if he's going all-out in speed anymore. I don't think so, when Goku was expressed to be at full power his aura appeared, therefore, the same should apply to Gohan when he powers up at the start of the match. And since a Full Power Super Saiyan Gohan couldn't tank a suppressed Cell's attacks, he should be nowhere near Full Power Perfect Cell.

Being at full power and trying are to completely different things. Furthermore we know that frame of mind is also part of how much Ki a character can use so if Gohan is reluctant then that is going to effect his Ki. Much like getting Angry amplifies his Ki. I also don't see why Cell would randomly stop using his full speed all of a sudden. There is no reason for him to stop using it after he said he would.

Vegeta made it known earlier that Goku & himself are now stronger than Gohan, and that couldn't be the case if he didn't have SSJ2. What we're shown is that Goku was unaware of the power boost that Babidi's spell granted until Vegeta tells him, while Goku mentions nothing about being unaware that Vegeta surpassed Super Saiyan. So the context should speak for itself.

That's not strictly true. Because Vegeta could still be stronger than Gohan in comparative forms. I mean if what you say was true then there would be no reason for Goku to be shocked. Because he would sense Vegeta's SSJ power and know he would be 2x stronger than that as a SSJ2 and not even be phased. If you check when Vegeta watched Goku transform into a SSJ2 he wasn't surprised at all. In comparison Goku actually gave a shocked expression before he said it looks like the fight is going to take longer than he thought.

[Son_Gohan]

Being at full power and trying are to completely different things. Furthermore we know that frame of mind is also part of how much Ki a character can use so if Gohan is reluctant then that is going to effect his Ki. Much like getting Angry amplifies his Ki. I also don't see why Cell would randomly stop using his full speed all of a sudden. There is no reason for him to stop using it after he said he would.

That's not strictly true. Because Vegeta could still be stronger than Gohan in comparative forms. I mean if what you say was true then there would be no reason for Goku to be shocked. Because he would sense Vegeta's SSJ power and know he would be 2x stronger than that as a SSJ2 and not even be phased. If you check when Vegeta watched Goku transform into a SSJ2 he wasn't surprised at all. In comparison Goku actually gave a shocked expression before he said it looks like the fight is going to take longer than he thought.

Gohan was trying in the beginning, hence why Cell couldn't catch him, so that shouldn't even apply then. Even when he was holding back, that was only in terms of offense, it shouldn't affect his overall Ki output which would act as his defense. Cell only used full speed in response to Gohan's elusive movement, if Gohan suddenly stopped moving as much then it would be hardly necessary at that point.

Vegeta also mentions that if Gohan went into a rage their superiority would be in doubt, so he's obviously speaking in regards to SSJ2 power. If what you say was true then Goku would be saying he didn't know Vegeta surpassed Super Saiyan himself. You're taking speculation over actual statements the story gives to us. Goku makes it clear he was unaware of the Majin power boost, Vegeta expresses that he was shocked at Goku's power against Yakon but not at the fact that he had the SSJ2 form, and Goku makes it clear that he's speaking in terms of power when he actually transforms. So the story is basically telling us the context would have to be in regards to power.

[Hitiro]

Gohan was trying in the beginning, hence why Cell couldn't catch him, so that shouldn't even apply then. Even when he was holding back, that was only in terms of offense, it shouldn't affect his overall Ki output which would act as his defense. Cell only used full speed in response to Gohan's elusive movement, if Gohan suddenly stopped moving as much then it would be hardly necessary at that point.

But Gohan wasn't trying in the beginning. Far from it. He was never on the offensive. He spent the whole time just avoiding Cell's attacks and saying he doesn't want to fight Cell. The only actual attack he did was when Cell ramped up his speed. And he didn't follow through with it. He hit Cell and that was that. And yes, it will effect his overall Ki output. Because as it has been stated things like frame of mind, courage and many other things I would assume, all have an influence on Ki output because they are apart of Ki. If you have a poor frame of mind then the amount of Ki your frame of mind contributes is also poor. It's also why Goku, at the time he had his heart problem, was fighting at near full power but Piccolo said his condition was poor. Because the heart virus was clearly effecting the Genki portion of his Ki. And just because Gohan has stopped moving doesn't mean he isn't still utilizing his full speed. If he could have dodged Gohan's attack then he would have.

Vegeta also mentions that if Gohan went into a rage their superiority would be in doubt, so he's obviously speaking in regards to SSJ2 power. If what you say was true then Goku would be saying he didn't know Vegeta surpassed Super Saiyan himself. You're taking speculation over actual statements the story gives to us. Goku makes it clear he was unaware of the Majin power boost, Vegeta expresses that he was shocked at Goku's power against Yakon but not at the fact that he had the SSJ2 form, and Goku makes it clear that he's speaking in terms of power when he actually transforms. So the story is basically telling us the context would have to be in regards to power.

Gohan's superiority would be visible in any form he takes. If his rage boosts his Ki by 2x then he is going to be stronger than the other Saiyans, in each form, regardless of what form he's in. Whether that be Base, SSJ or SSJ2. So it doesn't have to mean he's speaking in regards to the SSJ2 power.

And Goku clearly showed he was surprised when Vegeta transformed into a SSJ2. Why would he be surprised at this? There really is no other reason for him to be surprised because he would be able to sense Vegeta's SSJ Ki already and it would be simple extrapolation to know how strong Vegeta is in SSJ2. Goku would have been clear about the Majin Boost as soon as Vegeta went SSJ though. Not SSJ2. Why would the Majin Boost only effect his SSJ2 form? It would essentially look like this:

Vegeta(Pre-Majin): 1
SSJ Vegeta(Pre-Majin): 50
SSJ2 Vegeta(Pre-Majin: 100

SSJ Vegeta(Post-Majin): 55 < Goku would see his power at this point and know that Vegeta would be a 110 if he knew he had SSJ2. So he wouldn't be shocked.
SSJ2 Vegeta(Post-Majin): 110

Furthermore Vegeta was shocked that Goku had surpassed SSJ. He literally says it exclaims it when he finds out he has the ability when Goku was against Yakon.

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P10.5
Context: after Goku makes Yakon explode with his Super Saiyan aura
Vegeta: “So that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall…The Super Saiyan wall…”

Even if Goku didn't know about the Majin Boost he would have still sensed Vegeta's power with the Majin Boost. Not that I think he didn't know about it because he clearly saw at the tournament, like Vegeta did, that Spopovich and Yamu had power past their natural limits. If Vegeta twigged this at the tournament there is no reason Goku, who is a battle genius, would not notice it too. I mean we can look at other examples such as SSJ Grade 3. Both Goku and Vegeta figured the form was useless. If anything Goku is a superior battle tactician to Vegeta because Goku realized they should make the base SSJ form stronger and more efficient.

[Son_Gohan]

But Gohan wasn't trying in the beginning. Far from it. He was never on the offensive. He spent the whole time just avoiding Cell's attacks and saying he doesn't want to fight Cell. The only actual attack he did was when Cell ramped up his speed. And he didn't follow through with it. He hit Cell and that was that. And yes, it will effect his overall Ki output. Because as it has been stated things like frame of mind, courage and many other things I would assume, all have an influence on Ki output because they are apart of Ki. If you have a poor frame of mind then the amount of Ki your frame of mind contributes is also poor. It's also why Goku, at the time he had his heart problem, was fighting at near full power but Piccolo said his condition was poor. Because the heart virus was clearly effecting the Genki portion of his Ki. And just because Gohan has stopped moving doesn't mean he isn't still utilizing his full speed. If he could have dodged Gohan's attack then he would have.

Gohan's superiority would be visible in any form he takes. If his rage boosts his Ki by 2x then he is going to be stronger than the other Saiyans, in each form, regardless of what form he's in. Whether that be Base, SSJ or SSJ2. So it doesn't have to mean he's speaking in regards to the SSJ2 power.

And Goku clearly showed he was surprised when Vegeta transformed into a SSJ2. Why would he be surprised at this? There really is no other reason for him to be surprised because he would be able to sense Vegeta's SSJ Ki already and it would be simple extrapolation to know how strong Vegeta is in SSJ2. Goku would have been clear about the Majin Boost as soon as Vegeta went SSJ though. Not SSJ2. Why would the Majin Boost only effect his SSJ2 form? It would essentially look like this:

Vegeta(Pre-Majin): 1
SSJ Vegeta(Pre-Majin): 50
SSJ2 Vegeta(Pre-Majin: 100

SSJ Vegeta(Post-Majin): 55 < Goku would see his power at this point and know that Vegeta would be a 110 if he knew he had SSJ2. So he wouldn't be shocked.
SSJ2 Vegeta(Post-Majin): 110

Furthermore Vegeta was shocked that Goku had surpassed SSJ. He literally says it exclaims it when he finds out he has the ability when Goku was against Yakon.

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P10.5
Context: after Goku makes Yakon explode with his Super Saiyan aura
Vegeta: “So that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall…The Super Saiyan wall…”

Even if Goku didn't know about the Majin Boost he would have still sensed Vegeta's power with the Majin Boost. Not that I think he didn't know about it because he clearly saw at the tournament, like Vegeta did, that Spopovich and Yamu had power past their natural limits. If Vegeta twigged this at the tournament there is no reason Goku, who is a battle genius, would not notice it too. I mean we can look at other examples such as SSJ Grade 3. Both Goku and Vegeta figured the form was useless. If anything Goku is a superior battle tactician to Vegeta because Goku realized they should make the base SSJ form stronger and more efficient.

You don't have to be on the offensive to be at full power. Goku had already shown us what a full power Super Saiyan constitutes; a more serious look in their eyes and the surfacing of their aura, which differs in intensity from the characteristic flame shape due to the higher power output. The shape of Gohan's aura reveals all we need to know about where his Ki is at, that's what it's drawn for. Cell's full power was intimidating enough that they couldn't even tell initially that he was still inferior to SSJ2 Gohan, which his SSJ1 could never be seen as remotely comparable to, so it is not even in question. Gohan knocking Cell down was not a very definitive speed feat in the first place, anyone can be caught off-guard with one shot. With Gohan's extreme passiveness up till then and outright telling Cell he didn't want to fight; then it's natural for him to become emboldened in the role of a bully and over-commit to attacking while neglecting his own defense.

Anything less than Super Saiyan 2 is not Gohan's full power, in which his rage would increase from. Gohan's SSJ2 transformation at the tournament was the only time Vegeta got a real look at his true power after 7 years and directly comments on him being considerably weaker. Vegeta wouldn't have made that statement later of them being stronger if not for that display.

That would require even more thought than interpreting Vegeta's comment, and there's no necessity for Goku to think that deeply about it. I'd expect to hear these things coming from his own mouth, not yours. There would be no reason for Goku to be surprised either when he already saw Vegeta power up with lightning before anyway. No, we know how Vegeta reacts to something that was unexpected and he was completely calm, you even said in your previous post that Vegeta wasn't surprised at all by Goku transforming into SSJ2. Except it's actually expressed Goku wasn't aware of it, unlike your claim about Vegeta's SSJ2:



So your argument is based on speculation of what you think Goku would be thinking over what the content actually tells us.

[Hitiro]

My post seems to have been lost when the site went under maintenance so I'll try and remember everything I said.

You don't have to be on the offensive to be at full power. Goku had already shown us what a full power Super Saiyan constitutes; a more serious look in their eyes and the surfacing of their aura, which differs in intensity from the characteristic flame shape due to the higher power output. The shape of Gohan's aura reveals all we need to know about where his Ki is at, that's what it's drawn for. Cell's full power was intimidating enough that they couldn't even tell initially that he was still inferior to SSJ2 Gohan, which his SSJ1 could never be seen as remotely comparable to, so it is not even in question. Gohan knocking Cell down was not a very definitive speed feat in the first place, anyone can be caught off-guard with one shot. With Gohan's extreme passiveness up till then and outright telling Cell he didn't want to fight; then it's natural for him to become emboldened in the role of a bully and over-commit to attacking while neglecting his own defense.

I never said that Gohan wasn't at full power. What I'm saying is a mixture of things made it so that his full power was not his true power. Things like being in the right frame of mind, having courage and not being sick can effect a character in both negative and positive ways. Gohan is a prime example of this when he gets angry and uses more power than people would think he is capable of. And another example of this being the case is Goku being sick with the heart virus. Piccolo states that Goku was close to full power but his condition was miserable and his power should have been more than what it was. So Piccolo could clearly see that Goku's full power was not actually Goku's true power because of the sickness.

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”
Note: Several people thought this quote was contradictory, due to how Piccolo says Goku is using almost his full power but should have much better power than that. To me though it seems pretty straightforward: Goku is using almost all the power he has in his current sick condition, but Piccolo realizes Goku's full power should be much more than that.

So while Gohan may have been using his full power at the time it doesn't mean that he was using his full power while being in the right frame of mind and having the courage to act upon it. And nobody ever thought that Cell's full power was intimidating enough that they couldn't tell if he was initially inferior to SSJ2 Gohan. Nobody ever voices such a thing. They are sure shocked at how much power he displayed but they never make such a comparison to SSJ2 Gohan. And I have never once seen a character be caught off-guard and get hit while the enemy is right in front of them when the strength difference is supposed to be large. Even recently Trunks caught Vegeta off-guard by faking the SSJG3 power-up in the fight and then Vegeta still reacted amply enough to not get hit because he is superior to Trunks. If Cell really was that much superior to SSJ Gohan he would have avoided it even if he was surprised. The only times I've ever seen a strong opponent get hit is when they never saw it coming. And Cell definitely saw this coming so he should have either dodged with his superior speed or blocked it. He did neither. That says to me that the difference between the two is marginal if anything Gohan was the superior one because he isn't truly using his full power effectively.

Anything less than Super Saiyan 2 is not Gohan's full power, in which his rage would increase from. Gohan's SSJ2 transformation at the tournament was the only time Vegeta got a real look at his true power after 7 years and directly comments on him being considerably weaker. Vegeta wouldn't have made that statement later of them being stronger if not for that display.

Many times the throughout the story full power has been indicative of whatever form the character is using and then other times it has also been used with regard to their transformations. You can't definitively say that this was a case of SSJ2 Gohan while enraged. Furthermore, Vegeta never states that they are stronger than his SSJ2 from back then. Vegeta clearly states that Gohan had not trained and thus they had naturally surpassed his power. This does not actually indicate he was talking about anything other than in general. Because the SSJ forms are multipliers so Vegeta and Goku surpassing Gohan's base would mean that they would have also surpassed any subsequent form they have in comparison. Vegeta never actually states they are stronger than him(Meaning he is stronger than SSJ2 Gohan). Only that their powers are now higher than his(Meaning that in comparative forms they should be superior). So that could still leave Goku in the dark about Vegeta having SSJ2.

That would require even more thought than interpreting Vegeta's comment, and there's no necessity for Goku to think that deeply about it. I'd expect to hear these things coming from his own mouth, not yours. There would be no reason for Goku to be surprised either when he already saw Vegeta power up with lightning before anyway.

You realise that across the story there have been several characters who have powered up and got electric while they powered up. Right? If Vegeta was a SSJ2 there then why did he not just stay in SSJ2? There was no reason for him to drop out of it. He wanted to fight at their best.

No, we know how Vegeta reacts to something that was unexpected and he was completely calm, you even said in your previous post that Vegeta wasn't surprised at all by Goku transforming into SSJ2.

After checking the manga again he doesn't really react. But he is just putting up a front to hide his surprise. His dialogue even indicates he is shocked. Furthermore the image you linked down below has text before it which directly states he was shocked when Goku fought Yakon.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight for a while
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

Except it's actually expressed Goku wasn't aware of it, unlike your claim about Vegeta's SSJ2:



So your argument is based on speculation of what you think Goku would be thinking over what the content actually tells us.

This has nothing to do with the Majin Boost. It's specifically about Vegeta letting Babidi control him. If you look up at the dialogue from the strength checker quote just above this you will see that Goku clicks that Vegeta let Babidi do this. Vegeta says "That's why I secretly resolved myself..." to which Goku realises and says "So that's it...!! You got Babidi to..." to which Vegeta replies "Yes, he let Babidi control him." Nowhere in this dialogue did Goku express he was unaware of the Majin Boost his surprise was merely that Vegeta actually let this happen rather than it being thrust upon him.

[Son_Gohan]

I never said that Gohan wasn't at full power. What I'm saying is a mixture of things made it so that his full power was not his true power. Things like being in the right frame of mind, having courage and not being sick can effect a character in both negative and positive ways. Gohan is a prime example of this when he gets angry and uses more power than people would think he is capable of. And another example of this being the case is Goku being sick with the heart virus. Piccolo states that Goku was close to full power but his condition was miserable and his power should have been more than what it was. So Piccolo could clearly see that Goku's full power was not actually Goku's true power because of the sickness.

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”
Note: Several people thought this quote was contradictory, due to how Piccolo says Goku is using almost his full power but should have much better power than that. To me though it seems pretty straightforward: Goku is using almost all the power he has in his current sick condition, but Piccolo realizes Goku's full power should be much more than that.

So while Gohan may have been using his full power at the time it doesn't mean that he was using his full power while being in the right frame of mind and having the courage to act upon it. And nobody ever thought that Cell's full power was intimidating enough that they couldn't tell if he was initially inferior to SSJ2 Gohan. Nobody ever voices such a thing. They are sure shocked at how much power he displayed but they never make such a comparison to SSJ2 Gohan. And I have never once seen a character be caught off-guard and get hit while the enemy is right in front of them when the strength difference is supposed to be large. Even recently Trunks caught Vegeta off-guard by faking the SSJG3 power-up in the fight and then Vegeta still reacted amply enough to not get hit because he is superior to Trunks. If Cell really was that much superior to SSJ Gohan he would have avoided it even if he was surprised. The only times I've ever seen a strong opponent get hit is when they never saw it coming. And Cell definitely saw this coming so he should have either dodged with his superior speed or blocked it. He did neither. That says to me that the difference between the two is marginal if anything Gohan was the superior one because he isn't truly using his full power effectively.

If Gohan is never stated to not be in his right frame of mind, lack courage, or be sick than why would a reader ever come to this conclusion? You likely wouldn't be making this conjecture if not for a guidebook released more than a decade later; injecting something Toriyama mentioned into the story which there's no basis for on its own. The problem is that was Gohan in his right mind, it's not like he was frozen with fear, it was his conscious decision; he was calm, composed, doesn't like fighting and prefers studying. Piccolo has to emphasize that to Goku as well. Cell believed he could match SSJ2 Gohan with his full power until he took a punch to the gut. Future Trunks catches Vegeta off-guard while he was right in front of him with a headbutt a while after. The difference is the gap between SSJ1 Gohan & Perfect Cell is not remotely comparable to SSJ2 Trunks & SSJ Blue Vegeta, and Gohan notably tells Cell that he doesn't want to fight him, so Cell was only given the impression he would not hit back, before actually getting angry. That is not clear-cut enough to make any definitive power comparison. If Toriyama didn't make it a point to emphasize SSJ1 Gohan's power being comparable to Full-Power Cell's in any way, then the reader was simply not intended to believe such a thing. It takes a SSJ2 to beat Cell, just as it takes a SSJ1 to beat Freeza.

Many times the throughout the story full power has been indicative of whatever form the character is using and then other times it has also been used with regard to their transformations. You can't definitively say that this was a case of SSJ2 Gohan while enraged. Furthermore, Vegeta never states that they are stronger than his SSJ2 from back then. Vegeta clearly states that Gohan had not trained and thus they had naturally surpassed his power. This does not actually indicate he was talking about anything other than in general. Because the SSJ forms are multipliers so Vegeta and Goku surpassing Gohan's base would mean that they would have also surpassed any subsequent form they have in comparison. Vegeta never actually states they are stronger than him(Meaning he is stronger than SSJ2 Gohan). Only that their powers are now higher than his(Meaning that in comparative forms they should be superior). So that could still leave Goku in the dark about Vegeta having SSJ2.

When Super Saiyan Goku puts out his full power at the Cell Games, the chapter's title is "Son Goku at Full Power"; when Goku transforms into SSJ2 to fight Majin Vegeta, he says he'll end it quickly at "full power". The story is not ambiguous in this regard, the only one that appears to be confused is you. And do you know when was the last time Vegeta stated Gohan's lack of power was due to having not trained? Back when he transformed into SSJ2 at the tournament.

You realise that across the story there have been several characters who have powered up and got electric while they powered up. Right? If Vegeta was a SSJ2 there then why did he not just stay in SSJ2? There was no reason for him to drop out of it. He wanted to fight at their best.

Has Goku even seen a character have them with his own eyes outside of SSJ2 before? Goku dropped out of it instantly against Yakon. Not that it matters, the point is Goku has already seen how Vegeta looks as a SSJ2, leaving only power as the surprising factor.

After checking the manga again he doesn't really react. But he is just putting up a front to hide his surprise. His dialogue even indicates he is shocked. Furthermore the image you linked down below has text before it which directly states he was shocked when Goku fought Yakon.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight for a while
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

That would just mean he was shocked at Goku's power after giving it some contemplation, but he clearly wasn't shocked at Goku simply having the form. In fact, I remember Herms mentioning in the translation request thread that Vegeta explicitly says he expected Goku to have the form:

viewtopic.php?p=956663#p956663

This has nothing to do with the Majin Boost. It's specifically about Vegeta letting Babidi control him. If you look up at the dialogue from the strength checker quote just above this you will see that Goku clicks that Vegeta let Babidi do this. Vegeta says "That's why I secretly resolved myself..." to which Goku realises and says "So that's it...!! You got Babidi to..." to which Vegeta replies "Yes, he let Babidi control him." Nowhere in this dialogue did Goku express he was unaware of the Majin Boost his surprise was merely that Vegeta actually let this happen rather than it being thrust upon him.

The context Goku starts the dialogue with is power. You'll notice Goku doesn't say 'You let Babidi...(control you)', but uses the word "You got Babidi to...(make you stronger)". Vegeta then mentions nothing about letting Babidi control him but speaks about Spopovich & Yamu becoming stronger. If you recall, Goku already asked Vegeta earlier if he allowed himself to be possessed on purpose after he kills the people at the tournament, to which Vegeta confirms that he did it to get Goku to fight him.

[ahill1]

That's debatable because Gohan, when he fought Cell, was originally trying not to fight. He was trying to spare Cell. During the battle he was highly unmotivated to fight Cell as a SSJ. But he still managed to knock down Cell who was using his full speed while being unmotivated to fight. I would say that if Gohan actually tried against Cell he may not have even needed SSJ2. But that's just my opinion. Regardless, SSJ Gohan was much closer to fighting on par with Cell back then. And as others have said, Goku was shocked that Vegeta had obtained SSJ2 when he demonstrated it. If it really took a SSJ2 to take on Dabura, who was as strong or stronger than Cell(Before his Zenkai), then why would Goku later be surprised that Vegeta could go SSJ2? Surely he would have realised there and then Vegeta could use SSJ2 if it really took a SSJ2 to beat Dabura? Because Vegeta said that he or Goku could have beat him.

Gohan Super Saiyajin could not beat full power Cell, that's for certain.

[Zeru14]

If I remember correctly the first Budokai Tenkaichi PS2 game character profiles, mentions Gohan only went SSJ2 once in the Buu Saga, that of course was when he demonstrated the transformation to Kibito, the profile also mentioned/speculated that his lack of training made the transformation difficult, this is proofed as Gohan struggled to transform for his demo to Kibito, while Goku and Vegeta could go in and out of the form with ease.

[Hitiro]

If Gohan is never stated to not be in his right frame of mind, lack courage, or be sick than why would a reader ever come to this conclusion? You likely wouldn't be making this conjecture if not for a guidebook released more than a decade later; injecting something Toriyama mentioned into the story which there's no basis for on its own. The problem is that was Gohan in his right mind, it's not like he was frozen with fear, it was his conscious decision; he was calm, composed, doesn't like fighting and prefers studying. Piccolo has to emphasize that to Goku as well. Cell believed he could match SSJ2 Gohan with his full power until he took a punch to the gut. Future Trunks catches Vegeta off-guard while he was right in front of him with a headbutt a while after. The difference is the gap between SSJ1 Gohan & Perfect Cell is not remotely comparable to SSJ2 Trunks & SSJ Blue Vegeta, and Gohan notably tells Cell that he doesn't want to fight him, so Cell was only given the impression he would not hit back, before actually getting angry. That is not clear-cut enough to make any definitive power comparison. If Toriyama didn't make it a point to emphasize SSJ1 Gohan's power being comparable to Full-Power Cell's in any way, then the reader was simply not intended to believe such a thing. It takes a SSJ2 to beat Cell, just as it takes a SSJ1 to beat Freeza.

But Gohan wasn't in the right frame of mind. In fact Piccolo directly implied it when he questions Goku about using Gohan to save the world. He even says to Goku "Do you know what's going through his mind right now? "Why won't dad help me when I'm being hurt this much." He may be #1 but he is still just a kid." I omitted some of the dialogue to make it more concise and to the point but Piccolo basically says that Gohan is a confused and scared child. So you're incorrect about that. That would be someone not in the right frame of mind in my opinion. And the fact that the guidebooks indicate a spiritual aspect to Ki was not what brought me to this conjecture. Throughout the story we have seen Gohan's emotions play a pivotal role on how much power he outputs. In the very first fight we see him in with Raditz his battle power plummets because he is scared. Raditz comments on Gohan's power changing with his emotions. And when Gohan is scared and not fighting at his best nobody ever says he's suppressing his Ki. In fact, Goku even comments during the fight with Vegeta that Gohan's power should be more than it currently is.

Chapter: 236 (DBZ 42), P7.5, P8.1-4
Goku: “Gohan…dad’s body is messed up. I can’t move anymore. You have to fight for me instead. [Vegeta's] power should have fallen a whole lot.”
Gohan: “He’s strong. He’s too strong. I…I can’t win.”
Goku: “You…You don’t have to win. Just hold him off. Your power ought to be even more incredible than this…even more.”

But at the time what Goku was sensing was just Gohan's full power while he wasn't in the right frame of mind. I also said provide me an example in which a enemy with a clear advantage gets caught off-guard and takes a blow. We have clearly seen Trunks go toe-to-toe with Goku in comparable forms. So Base Trunks is clearly on par with Base Vegeta. Vegeta does not have the superiority here. So this is not an example that hold any weight. Show me an example of someone who is supposed to have a clear advantage in power getting caught off-guard. And I won't except characters who are holding back either because Cell clearly said he'd use his full speed and nothing contradicts him from continuing to use it even after he gets Gohan. It probably requires a SSJ2 to beat Super Perfect Cell. But definitely not Perfect Cell. I don't see why it is so hard to believe that Gohan could have had a close fight with Perfect Cell and probably won considering even Cell thought that Gohan would be a challenge and the fact that Gohan did not think what his father displayed was impressive at all.

When Super Saiyan Goku puts out his full power at the Cell Games, the chapter's title is "Son Goku at Full Power"; when Goku transforms into SSJ2 to fight Majin Vegeta, he says he'll end it quickly at "full power". The story is not ambiguous in this regard, the only one that appears to be confused is you. And do you know when was the last time Vegeta stated Gohan's lack of power was due to having not trained? Back when he transformed into SSJ2 at the tournament.

The story IS ambiguous in this regard. There have been several times throughout the story in which full power has been indicative of whatever form the person is fighting in. In fact, one such instance is when Kibito is replenishing Gohan's Ki after it was drained at the tournament.

Chapter: 445 (DBZ 251), P8.1
Context: as Kibito revives Gohan
Kibito: “Um…! He still hasn’t reached full power…This is bottomless power…At any rate, to think that there would be a human who moved with such gigantic, pure energy…This is why they wanted it…”

The only time the story makes clear points about what "full power" is, is when they say "true power" instead. Goku also, at one point, distinctly has two modes and says he's using full power in his "match" mode but now he will use his "battle" mode power. So there is also that. Freeza also states that he wouldn't use the full power of his first form on Namek.

Has Goku even seen a character have them with his own eyes outside of SSJ2 before? Goku dropped out of it instantly against Yakon. Not that it matters, the point is Goku has already seen how Vegeta looks as a SSJ2, leaving only power as the surprising factor.

Yes? Piccolo, Nappa, Cell from the afterlife. Electric in peoples aura's aren't exclusive to SSJ2s. Even SSJ Vegetto has Electric in his aura when he first transforms.

That would just mean he was shocked at Goku's power after giving it some contemplation, but he clearly wasn't shocked at Goku simply having the form. In fact, I remember Herms mentioning in the translation request thread that Vegeta explicitly says he expected Goku to have the form:

viewtopic.php?p=956663#p956663

Herms clearly states in this translation that it could have that meaning. He also says it doesn't necessarily have to mean that because the line in question can be translated one of two ways. Hence why he provides two translations. One where the line is without やはり being translated as "as expected" and one with it being translated like that.

The context Goku starts the dialogue with is power. You'll notice Goku doesn't say 'You let Babidi...(control you)', but uses the word "You got Babidi to...(make you stronger)". Vegeta then mentions nothing about letting Babidi control him but speaks about Spopovich & Yamu becoming stronger. If you recall, Goku already asked Vegeta earlier if he allowed himself to be possessed on purpose after he kills the people at the tournament, to which Vegeta confirms that he did it to get Goku to fight him.

It's irrelevant as to what Goku said here regardless of whether we say Goku said "You let Babidi...(control you)" or "You got Babidi to...(make you stronger) the point of contention was that Goku just realised that Vegeta freely let Babidi take control of him for the power up. It isn't about the power up itself. Just that Vegeta purposely got Babidi to make him stronger. Again, nothing to do with the strength itself. But rather the fact that it was Vegeta who wanted Babidi to make him stronger. Hence why Goku reacts when Vegeta says "That's why I secretly resolved myself." < Vegeta put this plan into action to get a power boost. Goku was already well aware of the power up from the tournament when he witnessed Yami and Spopovich using powers beyond their natural limits. Goku himself makes this assertion at the tournament.

Chapter: 441 (DBZ 247), P12.2-5
Kuririn: “Th-that bastard, he [fired] a ki wave…though it didn’t have that much ki power…!”
Vegeta: “No…He’d lose if he killed her. He purposefully fired a weak one…”
Goku: “…It seems like he has power far surpassing his own abilities…I don’t get it…What’s going on?...”

That's debatable because Gohan, when he fought Cell, was originally trying not to fight. He was trying to spare Cell. During the battle he was highly unmotivated to fight Cell as a SSJ. But he still managed to knock down Cell who was using his full speed while being unmotivated to fight. I would say that if Gohan actually tried against Cell he may not have even needed SSJ2. But that's just my opinion. Regardless, SSJ Gohan was much closer to fighting on par with Cell back then. And as others have said, Goku was shocked that Vegeta had obtained SSJ2 when he demonstrated it. If it really took a SSJ2 to take on Dabura, who was as strong or stronger than Cell(Before his Zenkai), then why would Goku later be surprised that Vegeta could go SSJ2? Surely he would have realised there and then Vegeta could use SSJ2 if it really took a SSJ2 to beat Dabura? Because Vegeta said that he or Goku could have beat him.

Gohan Super Saiyajin could not beat full power Cell, that's for certain.

There is no evidence for that. Especially seeing as how Gohan was not trying for the whole fight and still not really losing to Cell. He even took several hits from Cell to which Goku noted that Gohan's battle power had not decreased at all. The fact that this highly unmotivated character(And motivation has proven to effect battle power greatly a long with other things like anger, being scared, confusion, etc.) is still able to keep going and was able to knock down Cell while Cell was using his full speed shows that he is more than capable of fighting Cell's full power at the time. Even possibly surpassing it. Furthermore Goku demonstrated that he could beat Cell despite being weaker than him. And Goku is also weaker than Gohan. So if Goku could potentially do it then so could Gohan. In fact he has the highest of chances being that he has managed to dodge and attack a full speed Cell.

[Son_Gohan]

But Gohan wasn't in the right frame of mind. In fact Piccolo directly implied it when he questions Goku about using Gohan to save the world. He even says to Goku "Do you know what's going through his mind right now? "Why won't dad help me when I'm being hurt this much." He may be #1 but he is still just a kid." I omitted some of the dialogue to make it more concise and to the point but Piccolo basically says that Gohan is a confused and scared child. So you're incorrect about that. That would be someone not in the right frame of mind in my opinion. And the fact that the guidebooks indicate a spiritual aspect to Ki was not what brought me to this conjecture. Throughout the story we have seen Gohan's emotions play a pivotal role on how much power he outputs. In the very first fight we see him in with Raditz his battle power plummets because he is scared. Raditz comments on Gohan's power changing with his emotions. And when Gohan is scared and not fighting at his best nobody ever says he's suppressing his Ki. In fact, Goku even comments during the fight with Vegeta that Gohan's power should be more than it currently is.

You omitted the part of the dialogue that would express the opposite of what you're trying to argue, where Piccolo makes it clear to Goku that Gohan did not inherit his warrior's heart. How Piccolo describes Gohan's mindset is typical for a child his age. Only Goku and yourself would think otherwise, and while Goku actually concedes he was mistaken, you've just continued to twist the story to fit your narrative. Balderdash! It's by no coincidence you happened to reference 3 consecutive points about Ki brought up in the Super Exciting Guide. Being in one's "right state of mind" even overlaps with the idea of having courage, to outline these separately proves your perspective had been well-informed.

But at the time what Goku was sensing was just Gohan's full power while he wasn't in the right frame of mind. I also said provide me an example in which a enemy with a clear advantage gets caught off-guard and takes a blow. We have clearly seen Trunks go toe-to-toe with Goku in comparable forms. So Base Trunks is clearly on par with Base Vegeta. Vegeta does not have the superiority here. So this is not an example that hold any weight. Show me an example of someone who is supposed to have a clear advantage in power getting caught off-guard. And I won't except characters who are holding back either because Cell clearly said he'd use his full speed and nothing contradicts him from continuing to use it even after he gets Gohan. It probably requires a SSJ2 to beat Super Perfect Cell. But definitely not Perfect Cell. I don't see why it is so hard to believe that Gohan could have had a close fight with Perfect Cell and probably won considering even Cell thought that Gohan would be a challenge and the fact that Gohan did not think what his father displayed was impressive at all.

Gohan looked as determined as ever when he reveals his full power, there is nothing to indicate his power-up being any less than it was meant to be (like when SSJ Goku fought #19). This is all conjecture on your part. Well you didn't actually ask for one, but if you want another example, then Goku vs. Oozaru Vegeta; where Vegeta was more than 10x stronger than a weakened Goku, but still gets caught off-guard with a Ki blast to the eye while standing right in front of him.

The story IS ambiguous in this regard. There have been several times throughout the story in which full power has been indicative of whatever form the person is fighting in. In fact, one such instance is when Kibito is replenishing Gohan's Ki after it was drained at the tournament.

Chapter: 445 (DBZ 251), P8.1
Context: as Kibito revives Gohan
Kibito: “Um…! He still hasn’t reached full power…This is bottomless power…At any rate, to think that there would be a human who moved with such gigantic, pure energy…This is why they wanted it…”

The only time the story makes clear points about what "full power" is, is when they say "true power" instead. Goku also, at one point, distinctly has two modes and says he's using full power in his "match" mode but now he will use his "battle" mode power. So there is also that. Freeza also states that he wouldn't use the full power of his first form on Namek.

Even in that quote, Kibito is referencing his SSJ2 power. I already brought up two relevant instances in the closest proximity to the statement of interest within the story where "full power" is expressed in that context, while you're presenting examples that were written years prior, before Super Saiyan even existed. You're grasping at straws.

Yes? Piccolo, Nappa, Cell from the afterlife. Electric in peoples aura's aren't exclusive to SSJ2s. Even SSJ Vegetto has Electric in his aura when he first transforms.

Piccolo never displays sparks in his aura, Nappa only displays sparks in his aura before Goku arrives, and Goku was telepathically communicating from the afterlife and wasn't actually there to see Cell. Vegetto is not relevant here as he didn't exist yet.

Herms clearly states in this translation that it could have that meaning. He also says it doesn't necessarily have to mean that because the line in question can be translated one of two ways. Hence why he provides two translations. One where the line is without やはり being translated as "as expected" and one with it being translated like that.

The Japanese language does not literally translate into English, so how a line is formed will always be at the discretion of the translator. The context can be deduced from Vegeta's body language as well, because when Goku has achieved power that was unexpected to him in the past, he is shown to be very affected by it. Where in the case of Yakon, he was completely calm and composed.

It's irrelevant as to what Goku said here regardless of whether we say Goku said "You let Babidi...(control you)" or "You got Babidi to...(make you stronger) the point of contention was that Goku just realised that Vegeta freely let Babidi take control of him for the power up. It isn't about the power up itself. Just that Vegeta purposely got Babidi to make him stronger. Again, nothing to do with the strength itself. But rather the fact that it was Vegeta who wanted Babidi to make him stronger. Hence why Goku reacts when Vegeta says "That's why I secretly resolved myself." < Vegeta put this plan into action to get a power boost. Goku was already well aware of the power up from the tournament when he witnessed Yami and Spopovich using powers beyond their natural limits. Goku himself makes this assertion at the tournament.

Chapter: 441 (DBZ 247), P12.2-5
Kuririn: “Th-that bastard, he [fired] a ki wave…though it didn’t have that much ki power…!”
Vegeta: “No…He’d lose if he killed her. He purposefully fired a weak one…”
Goku: “…It seems like he has power far surpassing his own abilities…I don’t get it…What’s going on?...”

What's irrelevant is your argument because it's already been disproved with the point I had brought up earlier. Goku already knew Vegeta intentionally allowed himself to become possessed. You're desperately trying to sustain something that is already lost:

[Hitiro]

You omitted the part of the dialogue that would express the opposite of what you're trying to argue, where Piccolo makes it clear to Goku that Gohan did not inherit his warrior's heart. How Piccolo describes Gohan's mindset is typical for a child his age. Only Goku and yourself would think otherwise, and while Goku actually concedes he was mistaken, you've just continued to twist the story to fit your narrative. Balderdash! It's by no coincidence you happened to reference 3 consecutive points about Ki brought up in the Super Exciting Guide. Being in one's "right state of mind" even overlaps with the idea of having courage, to outline these separately proves your perspective had been well-informed.

This is silly, even with the dialogue that I admitted Piccolo is still stating that Gohan is a child and that he is wondering why his father isn't helping him. That is obviously confusion! If you're questioning things like this then obviously you're not in the right frame of mind. Whether or not Gohan is trying to be brave or not if his state of mind is conflicted that will also have a bearing on his Ki supply it isn't simply a case of just because he is brave but not in a right frame of mind he gets all the benefits of Yuuki. In simple terms, 1+0 does not equal 2. Only when he is being brave and he is in the right frame of mind does he receive the full benefit. That's not to say he doesn't receive any for just being brave though.

Gohan looked as determined as ever when he reveals his full power, there is nothing to indicate his power-up being any less than it was meant to be (like when SSJ Goku fought #19). This is all conjecture on your part. Well you didn't actually ask for one, but if you want another example, then Goku vs. Oozaru Vegeta; where Vegeta was more than 10x stronger than a weakened Goku, but still gets caught off-guard with a Ki blast to the eye while standing right in front of him.

Putting on a brave front does not mean that Gohan was willing or able to fight at his true maximum. And it would be hard for the cast to voice any such opinion on Gohan's current state considering none of them have even witnessed his true power in his SSJ form. The only reason Gohan and Piccolo realised Goku's true power should have been more than what he showed against #19 is because they had the first-hand experience. If you check with Tenshinhan he thought there was nothing wrong with Goku the way he was at the time. It's also hardly conjectured on my part about Trunks, he demonstrated complete aptitude at fighting against Goku in a comparable form. And the Manga goes even as far as to put SSJ2 Trunks on SSJ3 Goku's level with Goku needing to use SSJG, for a split second, to beat him. Ki blasts are also an incredibly bad example to use. They are incredibly inconsistent as their power varies depending on how they are used and Ki blasts have also been shown to be vastly superior in speed to characters as well. The only reason that Ki blasts are, more often than not, evaded in battle is because a character usually only needs a fraction of the speed to evade the Ki blast. The reason for this is simple maths. If a blast which is, let's say 2 metres wide, travels 20 metres a second and you're 60 metres away then you have 3 seconds to dodge it. Now if you can travel at 0.5 metres a second you will have more than enough time to evade the blast. Because by the time the blast reaches where you were you would have moved 1.5 metres to the left or right. Why do you think Freeza said "How can you dodge my attacks at this range?!" when Goku proceeds to dodge all of Freeza's death beams? Why do you think that characters who move about at speeds much less than light speed can dodge beams that, from simple scaling, should be unavoidable now(Because Kame-sennin and Piccolo have already fired beams that have quickly reached the moon which would take near the speed of light)? Because Ki attacks are vastly superior in speed to any punch or kick a character can throw. So I would not use the Goku vs Oozaru Vegeta example either with regards to attacks. Given enough preparation and distance from a Ki attack and anybody should be able to avoid it. Given how close Oozaru Vegeta is in these panels, though. I'd say he doesn't have a hope in hell of avoiding a Ki attack that is probably travelling borderline the speed of light from that distance at least. Also, I doubt that Vegeta was 10x stronger than Goku at this point too. While it was clear that Oozaru multiplies your Ki by 10x, Vegeta had taken tons of damage from Goku's Kamehameha. And then he further lost a chunk of energy in creating the moon ball to transform. In fact, after he reverts it is clear that he doesn't have a ton of strength because he fails to kill them when he emits a Ki wave from his body all around And Gohan plus Kuririn were already vastly weaker than Goku anyway.

Even in that quote, Kibito is referencing his SSJ2 power. I already brought up two relevant instances in the closest proximity to the statement of interest within the story where "full power" is expressed in that context, while you're presenting examples that were written years prior, before Super Saiyan even existed. You're grasping at straws.

How could Kibito be referencing Gohan's SSJ2 power? Gohan was not in SSJ2 anymore? That makes no sense. How is Kibito going to supply Gohan with more power than he should have in his base form? The SSJ transformations amplify your base Ki so he should only be filling what Gohan was missing in his relevant form. At the time he was in his base form and any more power than his base form would obviously kill him because his body wouldn't be able to handle it without transforming. I'm not saying full power isn't expressed in the context you're suggesting but the manga clearly also shows it in a different context in other places, as with what Kibito states here about Gohan's Ki still not being filled to its maximum. There is no reason for us to assume that all of a sudden Gohan's maximum Ki in his base form has suddenly changed to being his SSJ2's maximum.

Piccolo never displays sparks in his aura, Nappa only displays sparks in his aura before Goku arrives, and Goku was telepathically communicating from the afterlife and wasn't actually there to see Cell. Vegetto is not relevant here as he didn't exist yet.

Yes he does... Piccolo Daimao does it when Goku fights him as a kid. Nappa was just an example, and it was shown that the characters could watch stuff as well as communicate when they place their hand on Kaio's back. So why wouldn't Goku be able to see the battle? Furthermore he tells Gohan to give it everything he's got only after Cell gets distracted by Vegeta. Goku would not have noticed this if he could not see what was going on. And even ignoring all of this, even if he never saw it apart from SSJ2 Gohan, there is no reason for him to assume that it is a SSJ2 exclusive thing. Especially considering he gets the sparks in his SSJ3 form as well.

The Japanese language does not literally translate into English, so how a line is formed will always be at the discretion of the translator. The context can be deduced from Vegeta's body language as well, because when Goku has achieved power that was unexpected to him in the past, he is shown to be very affected by it. Where in the case of Yakon, he was completely calm and composed.

He was only calm because that's what he wanted it to look like. He literally says that he was shocked. Vegeta is a very prideful character so he doesn't want to show that side of himself to Goku. He goes as far as to call Goku a bastard in this sentence too so it's obvious that he's a little infuriated by it too. In all of the instances that Vegeta has been shocked by Goku's power he has tried to hide his surprise, in front of Goku at least. The only time this doesn't happen, I would say, is when Goku uses his full power as a SSJ at the Cell Games. More often than not Goku never gets to see Vegeta's reactions to his power because he is either not around when Goku is showing it, like when he asked Karin to measure his power against Cells, or he can't help but show his surprise. And considering the difference between Goku and Vegeta was incredibly vast in the Cell Games I can see why Vegeta wouldn't be able to hide his shock there. When it is in the Boo arc the difference in power between him and Goku isn't that large. It was just substantial enough that Vegeta needed a little help to reach Goku's level.

What's irrelevant is your argument because it's already been disproved with the point I had brought up earlier. Goku already knew Vegeta intentionally allowed himself to become possessed. You're desperately trying to sustain something that is already lost

You never showed this image before. Or even mentioned it. But this is also irrelevant. Because it doesn't change the fact that Goku knew about the Majin boost prior to the other image you linked. All this image proves is that he was confused about the reason why Vegeta let himself fall under the spell. As I have posted earlier, Goku already noticed that Babidi's henchmen were using power beyond their natural limits. I'm not desperately trying to sustain anything, and there is nothing wrong with my statements. It's hardly a loss.

[Son_Gohan]

This is silly, even with the dialogue that I admitted Piccolo is still stating that Gohan is a child and that he is wondering why his father isn't helping him. That is obviously confusion! If you're questioning things like this then obviously you're not in the right frame of mind. Whether or not Gohan is trying to be brave or not if his state of mind is conflicted that will also have a bearing on his Ki supply it isn't simply a case of just because he is brave but not in a right frame of mind he gets all the benefits of Yuuki. In simple terms, 1+0 does not equal 2. Only when he is being brave and he is in the right frame of mind does he receive the full benefit. That's not to say he doesn't receive any for just being brave though.

Give it a rest already. Nobody states there's anything wrong with Gohan's Ki or that he's not in the his right state of mind, and when his Ki is being mentioned, Goku even establishes it hadn't gone down at all. Your fan-fiction is not evident in the story, and is not something anyone could ever come to through just reading it... which means you're forcibly reading things into the story that the author never intended.

Putting on a brave front does not mean that Gohan was willing or able to fight at his true maximum. And it would be hard for the cast to voice any such opinion on Gohan's current state considering none of them have even witnessed his true power in his SSJ form. The only reason Gohan and Piccolo realised Goku's true power should have been more than what he showed against #19 is because they had the first-hand experience. If you check with Tenshinhan he thought there was nothing wrong with Goku the way he was at the time. It's also hardly conjectured on my part about Trunks, he demonstrated complete aptitude at fighting against Goku in a comparable form. And the Manga goes even as far as to put SSJ2 Trunks on SSJ3 Goku's level with Goku needing to use SSJG, for a split second, to beat him. Ki blasts are also an incredibly bad example to use. They are incredibly inconsistent as their power varies depending on how they are used and Ki blasts have also been shown to be vastly superior in speed to characters as well. The only reason that Ki blasts are, more often than not, evaded in battle is because a character usually only needs a fraction of the speed to evade the Ki blast. The reason for this is simple maths. If a blast which is, let's say 2 metres wide, travels 20 metres a second and you're 60 metres away then you have 3 seconds to dodge it. Now if you can travel at 0.5 metres a second you will have more than enough time to evade the blast. Because by the time the blast reaches where you were you would have moved 1.5 metres to the left or right. Why do you think Freeza said "How can you dodge my attacks at this range?!" when Goku proceeds to dodge all of Freeza's death beams? Why do you think that characters who move about at speeds much less than light speed can dodge beams that, from simple scaling, should be unavoidable now(Because Kame-sennin and Piccolo have already fired beams that have quickly reached the moon which would take near the speed of light)? Because Ki attacks are vastly superior in speed to any punch or kick a character can throw. So I would not use the Goku vs Oozaru Vegeta example either with regards to attacks. Given enough preparation and distance from a Ki attack and anybody should be able to avoid it. Given how close Oozaru Vegeta is in these panels, though. I'd say he doesn't have a hope in hell of avoiding a Ki attack that is probably travelling borderline the speed of light from that distance at least. Also, I doubt that Vegeta was 10x stronger than Goku at this point too. While it was clear that Oozaru multiplies your Ki by 10x, Vegeta had taken tons of damage from Goku's Kamehameha. And then he further lost a chunk of energy in creating the moon ball to transform. In fact, after he reverts it is clear that he doesn't have a ton of strength because he fails to kill them when he emits a Ki wave from his body all around And Gohan plus Kuririn were already vastly weaker than Goku anyway.

Gohan was neither trembling nor sweating when he transformed to justify it being a front. Again, just continuing to twist the story to fit your narrative. Goku point outs SSJ2 Gohan had more power he wasn't using during the Kamehameha struggle when this was the first time he had even seen the form; Goku never points out earlier that SSJ1 Gohan's power was lacking when it was a form he had trained with first-hand. Therefore, that was SSJ1 Gohan's full power. End. Of. Discussion. Are you now arguing that a Ki blast from a weakened Saiyan arc Base Goku fired at mid-range, is faster than a kick from a Cell Games SSJ1 Gohan at virtually point-blank range? Between the two instances, the one with the higher chance of dodging/blocking would be Oozaru Vegeta and he didn't. It doesn't matter that it was a Ki blast, #18 similarly was able to dodge a surprise Ki blast from a weakened Vegeta at even closer range. There's no excuse, Cell & Oozaru Vegeta simply didn't anticipate their opponents to attack that way and were caught off-guard. Goku himself said he had used up the last of his energy in making the Genki dama and subsequently has his legs crushed; so whatever power deficiency Vegeta had it would be nowhere near to the degree of Goku's.

How could Kibito be referencing Gohan's SSJ2 power? Gohan was not in SSJ2 anymore? That makes no sense. How is Kibito going to supply Gohan with more power than he should have in his base form? The SSJ transformations amplify your base Ki so he should only be filling what Gohan was missing in his relevant form. At the time he was in his base form and any more power than his base form would obviously kill him because his body wouldn't be able to handle it without transforming. I'm not saying full power isn't expressed in the context you're suggesting but the manga clearly also shows it in a different context in other places, as with what Kibito states here about Gohan's Ki still not being filled to its maximum. There is no reason for us to assume that all of a sudden Gohan's maximum Ki in his base form has suddenly changed to being his SSJ2's maximum.

Super Saiyan forms are connected to their base, hence why Gohan was able to access his SSJ power earlier without his hair changing or how they can go straight from base to SSJ2 or SSJ3 at times.

Yes he does... Piccolo Daimao does it when Goku fights him as a kid. Nappa was just an example, and it was shown that the characters could watch stuff as well as communicate when they place their hand on Kaio's back. So why wouldn't Goku be able to see the battle? Furthermore he tells Gohan to give it everything he's got only after Cell gets distracted by Vegeta. Goku would not have noticed this if he could not see what was going on. And even ignoring all of this, even if he never saw it apart from SSJ2 Gohan, there is no reason for him to assume that it is a SSJ2 exclusive thing. Especially considering he gets the sparks in his SSJ3 form as well.

Nope, Piccolo Daimao doesn't have sparks in his aura. No, Kaio's telepathy is limited to communication, only he can see into the lower realm, as that is a ability unique to Gods.

He was only calm because that's what he wanted it to look like. He literally says that he was shocked. Vegeta is a very prideful character so he doesn't want to show that side of himself to Goku. He goes as far as to call Goku a bastard in this sentence too so it's obvious that he's a little infuriated by it too. In all of the instances that Vegeta has been shocked by Goku's power he has tried to hide his surprise, in front of Goku at least. The only time this doesn't happen, I would say, is when Goku uses his full power as a SSJ at the Cell Games. More often than not Goku never gets to see Vegeta's reactions to his power because he is either not around when Goku is showing it, like when he asked Karin to measure his power against Cells, or he can't help but show his surprise. And considering the difference between Goku and Vegeta was incredibly vast in the Cell Games I can see why Vegeta wouldn't be able to hide his shock there. When it is in the Boo arc the difference in power between him and Goku isn't that large. It was just substantial enough that Vegeta needed a little help to reach Goku's level.

Goku had his back towards Vegeta, just like when he knocked out Recoome. Vegeta had already directly shown that side of himself to Goku in the past when he faces off with Freeza. The shock evidently came from Goku's power within the form and how it compared to his own, which required further thought. Vegeta evidently expected Goku to have the form through his statement, and Goku evidently expected Vegeta to have the form through his lack of a statement.

You never showed this image before. Or even mentioned it. But this is also irrelevant. Because it doesn't change the fact that Goku knew about the Majin boost prior to the other image you linked. All this image proves is that he was confused about the reason why Vegeta let himself fall under the spell. As I have posted earlier, Goku already noticed that Babidi's henchmen were using power beyond their natural limits. I'm not desperately trying to sustain anything, and there is nothing wrong with my statements. It's hardly a loss.

I mentioned the scene, and you were expected to have the literacy and competence to view it for yourself. There's no requirement for me to actually post the panel, but clearly the text alone hadn't gotten across. Hence why Goku was about to say it himself before Vegeta cuts him off, your response is not actually disproving anything; Goku merely recalls it from memory at that point and hadn't done so earlier.

[nickzambuto]

We have to keep in mind the fact that at this point in the story, there was no "Super Saiyan 2." There was just "a Super Saiyan", and among all the Super Saiyans Gohan happened to have the most power by far. "Super Saiyan 2" didn't exist as a concept until Goku specified that it was a separate form during his fight with Majin Boo.

The lightning, the tiny differences in hair, all the traits that would go on to define "Super Saiyan 2" were nothing but stylistic additions to make certain fights more badass, but weren't actually necessary to identify the form. Because at the time, it wasn't something separate, it was just going Super Saiyan, Gohan being abnormally powerful did not change the transformation. After all, initially Kaioken would make Goku's muscles bulge. That didn't happen on Namek, so does that mean he wasn't using Kaioken?

Absolutely not, Toriyama simply didn't go to the effort of drawing the bulging muscles because demonstrating the Kaioken technique to Captain Ginyu wasn't a badass moment like the beam struggle with Vegeta. He was obviously in Kaioken because he was red, that's the defining feature. Same with Gohan, he was obviously a Super Saiyan because he was yellow, Toriyama didn't feel the need to draw the lightning and the slightly more spiky hair in every single scene because Super Saiyan 2 was not a concept yet, and therefore the traits like electricity were retroactively added as defining features of the form later, but since it didn't exist as a separate form at the time, there's no reason to believe Gohan wasn't going full power. Toriyama simply decided to go to the effort of adding the stylistic choices like lightning in some scenes, and ignored it for efficiency in others.

[ahill1]

Where do you get that pretty high quality scan from Viz?

[Nejishiki]

Where do you get that pretty high quality scan from Viz?

ComiXology provides high quality digital scans of the series.

[Hitiro]

Give it a rest already. Nobody states there's anything wrong with Gohan's Ki or that he's not in the his right state of mind, and when his Ki is being mentioned, Goku even establishes it hadn't gone down at all. Your fan-fiction is not evident in the story, and is not something anyone could ever come to through just reading it... which means you're forcibly reading things into the story that the author never intended.

Nobody WOULD be able to establish if there was anything wrong with Gohan's Ki. Piccolo only noticed it with Goku because he had spent the last 3 years accustomed to Goku using his full power. Tenshinhan completely missed that there was something wrong with Goku's Ki. He believed this was how Goku's Ki should feel like. So again, just because Gohan was at full power does not mean that his full power shouldn't have been more than that. Just like how Goku's full power should have been more than what he displayed against #19. It's not "fan-fiction" as you call it. And yes. It is something someone could come to after reading it because emotions and your frame of mind do have a heavy influence on your Ki.

Gohan was neither trembling nor sweating when he transformed to justify it being a front. Again, just continuing to twist the story to fit your narrative. Goku point outs SSJ2 Gohan had more power he wasn't using during the Kamehameha struggle when this was the first time he had even seen the form; Goku never points out earlier that SSJ1 Gohan's power was lacking when it was a form he had trained with first-hand. Therefore, that was SSJ1 Gohan's full power. End. Of. Discussion. Are you now arguing that a Ki blast from a weakened Saiyan arc Base Goku fired at mid-range, is faster than a kick from a Cell Games SSJ1 Gohan at virtually point-blank range? Between the two instances, the one with the higher chance of dodging/blocking would be Oozaru Vegeta and he didn't. It doesn't matter that it was a Ki blast, #18 similarly was able to dodge a surprise Ki blast from a weakened Vegeta at even closer range. There's no excuse, Cell & Oozaru Vegeta simply didn't anticipate their opponents to attack that way and were caught off-guard. Goku himself said he had used up the last of his energy in making the Genki dama and subsequently has his legs crushed; so whatever power deficiency Vegeta had it would be nowhere near to the degree of Goku's.

People do not have to tremble nor sweat to justify something being a front. And he was sweating just before he "transformed"(I assume you mean when he started using his full power as a SSJ?) so why whould that get disregarded? It is hardly twisting the narrative because we literally get told by Piccolo that Gohan was confused as to why his father wasn't helping him and that Goku may be right about Gohan being the best out of all of them but he is still just a child, which is affected by all the things a child would experience being thrown into a life or death battle. Yes, Goku points out SSJ2 Gohan was holding back. But holding back and using your full power(while being affected by things like your emotions) are two different things. We have constantly seen throughout the story that characters can tell when a character is holding back power. They only know when someone is using their maximum power when that person is actually using that maximum otherwise they know the person his holding back. They just don't know how much.

I've always seen their Ki sensing as when someone reaches their maximum power it gives the person sensing a feeling of fullness to the Ki they are sensing. Much like how you can't gauge how much food you have in your stomach throughout the day but you know you have a full stomach once you've reached the limit of eating. Goku also could not point out if Gohan's power was lacking because half-way through the training they decide to pace themselves and get used to the form rather than going all out and burning through their Ki. If they are sparring while not using their maximum power(to conserve energy so they can maximise maintaining the form) how would Goku ever realize Gohan's true power? Gohan also showed surprise at Karin Tower when Goku demonstrated half of his Ki, claiming that Goku must have more Ki than what would be suggested by his statement. That would suggest that Gohan had never seen Goku's true power or even had any indication of where Goku's power lay until this point. So. End. Of. Discussion. And Yes, I am indicating a Ki blast is faster than a kick at point blank range. Ki blasts and techniques move several times faster than kicks/punches. The characters can not move at, or faster than, the speed of light. Their Ki attacks however can. The only reason they can dodge such things is because of pre-emptive movement or being a suitable distance away so that their speed allows them to dodge the attack. If a blast travels 20 m/s and you can only travel 1 m/s then you need to be over 20 metres away to dodge the blast if it is 1 metre wide. Show me where #18 dodged a surprise Ki blast from a weakened Vegeta at close range? Because I don't see surprise whatsoever. A couple of pages back she was surprised by a blast that was inches away from her and she took it head on.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
^Here you can plainly see she was surprised, the little erratic dialogue box which is synonymous with surprise is clearly represented here. It is usually either this empty kind of dialogue box or one with explanation marks.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
^Here you can see that she doesn't have either of them. Other examples of being surprised these ways can be found just trolling through the story
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
Goku has had worse injuries than two broken legs and still had a portion of Ki to spare... Also Goku did not say he used up the last of his energy in making the Genki Dama. Going by the Viz translation all he said was he didn't have enough energy to make another one. That does not constitute to him having no energy whatsoever. Back when Goku and Kame-sennin were fighting at the 21nd Tenkaichi Budokai both Goku and Kame-sennin didn't have enough energy to produce another Kamehameha. But they could still fight, and well above human limits.

Super Saiyan forms are connected to their base, hence why Gohan was able to access his SSJ power earlier without his hair changing or how they can go straight from base to SSJ2 or SSJ3 at times.

SSJ forms are connected to their base in so far as they are just amplifications of their base power. That is all. Just by replenishing Gohan's base Ki he would gain his SSJ and SSJ2 Ki back. Gohan does have hidden depths to his power but that isn't to say that you can give him back more Ki than his body would allow. Even if we assume that the SSJ transformations were tapping into energies that would be untapped normally Kibito would not be able to access or manipulate this energy due to it being sealed because his body would not allow him to hold any more Ki than he can currently. Now if he had his "Mystic" power-up then yeah, I can see that Kibito would need to replenish more Ki than Gohan could normally hold. Also, even if Kibito could go beyond to replenish those latent powers, without killing Gohan from giving him more Ki than he requires, he wouldn't know to. He would stop at the physical limits of the body and not continue any further. Going back to the stomach analogy if you had two stomachs but you never knew about the second one and you ate till your first stomach was full. You wouldn't keep eating, would you? You would stop at the first stomach.

Nope, Piccolo Daimao doesn't have sparks in his aura. No, Kaio's telepathy is limited to communication, only he can see into the lower realm, as that is a ability unique to Gods.

[spoiler][/spoiler]Yes he did? And if Kaio's telepathy is limited to communication why is it that Goku knew that Cell was distracted when he signaled Gohan to "Do it now!"?...

Goku had his back towards Vegeta, just like when he knocked out Recoome. Vegeta had already directly shown that side of himself to Goku in the past when he faces off with Freeza. The shock evidently came from Goku's power within the form and how it compared to his own, which required further thought. Vegeta evidently expected Goku to have the form through his statement, and Goku evidently expected Vegeta to have the form through his lack of a statement.

Having his back towards Goku should matter why? I would argue that this with Recoome, along with his power at the Cell Games, were the most shocking points for Vegeta. Considering Goku had a battle power of 90,000. 3x-4x greater than Vegeta's and also he could take it further if he wanted with Kaioken. The difference between them wasn't this staggering for quite a while. And I also don't recall his shock when Goku faces off against Freeza either. Maybe in the anime? In the manga I don't think this is ever played off like that, though. We get one of those little surprise bubbles I demonstrated above when he realises Goku is there Goku had not done anything power-wise yet, though.

I mentioned the scene, and you were expected to have the literacy and competence to view it for yourself. There's no requirement for me to actually post the panel, but clearly the text alone hadn't gotten across. Hence why Goku was about to say it himself before Vegeta cuts him off, your response is not actually disproving anything; Goku merely recalls it from memory at that point and hadn't done so earlier.

If you did then I missed it, sorry. But there is no need for backhanded comments like that. Please keep your nasty comments to yourself. People make mistakes when they are reading or writing. There is no need for you to bring my literacy or competency into this discussion. And this statement, nor the one you posted with the image, have any relevance in disproving what I stated. Goku showed shock/surprise when Vegeta transformed. Given that he could already sense Vegeta's SSJ power output before this Goku would know what amount of power Vegeta would have in SSJ2. The majin boost would already be in effect. So Goku would know that SSJ2 Majin Vegeta's power would be his (SSJ power + the Majin Boost) x2. I mean he literally determined a SSJ fusion between the kids should rival his SSJ3 power. And Piccolo also thought that Gotenks' Ki output was decent, the only thing he was worried about was Gotenks' Ki control and then obviously the fact that Gohan had no time left. So there would be no reason for him to be shocked if he knew that Vegeta has SSJ2 because he could easily determine how strong Vegeta should be in that form. The only reason he could possibly be shocked at is if he didn't expect Vegeta to have SSJ2.

[Son_Gohan]

And Yes, I am indicating a Ki blast is faster than a kick at point blank range.

I stopped reading there. You appear to have difficulty separating fantasy from fact.