Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

Then why is it that we've never seen Piccolo defeat Namek Frieza via strategic acumen or something else that's equally ridiculous?

Because he's winning against Freeza until he isn't, at which point he doesn't have a chance to charge a Makankosappo/because Freeza's in tip-top shape after transforming/the same reason Goku doesn't launch a Genki Dama filled with energy from all over Earth against Cell, even though he's convinced in the next arc it can kill Boo.

Before he fights Frost, everyone tells Piccolo, "Hey, this guy is way stronger than you." Frost is probably way stronger than Piccolo.

[Hugo Boss]

The manga already has power levels that the two base theory predicts, so calling it "rubbish" is literally nonsense LOL.

No it doesn't. You've just changed tunes to now say that Base Goku and Super Saiyan God Goku in the manga are the equivalent of Base Goku and Saiyan Beyond Goku in the anime and once again that's based on nothing whatsoever.

Super Saiyan God = Saiyan Beyond God?

Seriously, this is quite a stretch, but perhaps I've been irrational, because there must be a consistent powerscale. It's alright to guess when Goku is a Saiyan Beyond God or Base because the story is pretty obvious about when he uses which form. The only problem is that there is no visual clue or characters explaining the difference, but nevermind.

[Chiki]

Then why is it that we've never seen Piccolo defeat Namek Frieza via strategic acumen or something else that's equally ridiculous?

Because he's winning against Freeza until he isn't, at which point he doesn't have a chance to charge a Makankosappo/because Freeza's in tip-top shape after transforming/the same reason Goku doesn't launch a Genki Dama filled with energy from all over Earth against Cell, even though he's convinced in the next arc it can kill Boo.

Before he fights Frost, everyone tells Piccolo, "Hey, this guy is way stronger than you." Frost is probably way stronger than Piccolo.

No, second form Frieza and Piccolo had the same power level. Since according to you guys, the gap between Frost and Piccolo is in the thousands yet Piccolo was able to beat Frost, second form Frieza should have been a joke to Piccolo via his strategic acumen.

Anyway, you're just nitpicking. I can come up with loads of other examples that are equally ridiculous as I said in my original post. Why wasn't Piccolo able to defeat Androids 17 and 18 via strategic acumen?

Super Saiyan God = Saiyan Beyond God?

In terms of power level, yes (though SBG might be a little bit weaker because of Beerus's statement in the BoG movie). The small difference in power makes no difference regarding our predicted power scales.

Think about it. The two base theory is a power level debate, not an appearance debate, and the only meaningful difference between SSG and SBG is appearance.

I'm not biased in anyway, I was the first person in this thread to bring that two base theory up. Pretty much straight after the Piccolo vs Frost episode. I figured that something would brought up during the tournament that would confirm it but then 5 episodes passed....10 episodes passed....20 episodes passed.

There's nothing. You're pretty much dead set on this, you treat what is no more than a theory as a fact and won't even consider the possibility of anything else now.

Dunno what happened since then, but you've become impossible to talk to rationally. In logic, when we make theories, it's a GOOD thing if theories solve all problems for us, regardless of whether or not there is evidence for them. Perhaps the two base theory may not have strong visual evidence and no statements in the anime in favor of it, but when a theory solves all problems that no other theory can solve, it's a good thing and your obsession with proving it wrong is honestly strange. The one base theory is hilariously bad at solving any of the problems that the two base theory does (and it's not limited to just Piccolo vs. Frost.)

I admit that the two base theory might not be true in the anime, but that would be because of Toei's bad writing more than anything (which Toyotaro fixed in the manga since the two base theory works in it). I'm willing to admit that and more, so really, I'm not biased here at all. Part of the fun in theorizing comes from being proven wrong.

No it doesn't. You've just changed tunes to now say that Base Goku and Super Saiyan God Goku in the manga are the equivalent of Base Goku and Saiyan Beyond Goku in the anime and once again that's based on nothing whatsoever.

This line also shows that you're biased. The argument here is actually incredibly simple and obvious and I am sure that any rational person will agree with it.

The two base theory is a power level debate. SBG Goku and SSG Goku only differ in terms of appearance. In terms of power level, SBG and SSG Goku are very similar if not the same. Therefore, there is no difference between the original two base theory (Base and SBG) and the new one (Base and SBG or SSG). They are the exact same thing.

In logic and philosophy, we change definitions all the time. Until scientific determinism was discovered (the idea that every action is predetermined and there is no such thing as luck or chance or w/e), free will was considered to mean something like "someone with free will is someone with agency (someone who can make their own decisions). Now that scientific determinism is accepted as true by many scientists and philosophers, that definition of free will is no longer considered to be the right one since it's obviously false. But most people don't want to give up the idea of free will. So, we change our definition for it to something in line with our intuitions.

It's also a linguistic fact that the two theories are the same. After all, the name of the theory is two base. A Base is a non-Super Saiyan form. Goku can go Super Saiyan both without god ki (Base) and with (SSG, or SBG) to turn into SS or SSB respectively. So it's really easy to see why the two theories are the same.

I don't know why this makes you so uncomfortable, but it's time to admit that you were wrong in the manga. You could still be right in the anime, who knows? Let's wait and see. I bet one theory or the other will be confirmed in the anime in the next couple eps, when Goku fights Black. If Goku stays as an SS2/SS3 to fight Black before turning SSB, the one base theory is confirmed. If Goku fights Black in Base then turns SSB, the two base theory is confirmed (barring some special circumstances we haven't seen yet).

[Bullza]

Dunno what happened since then, but you've become impossible to talk to rationally. In logic, when we make theories, it's a GOOD thing if theories solve all problems for us, regardless of whether or not there is evidence for them.

About 20 episodes and 5 months happened since then. Being as these were the first couple new fights following the movies there was a chance that they'd explain that they had two base powers. They didn't, still haven't and probably never will.

This theory does not solve the actual problems with the show, it just allows fans to conveniently excuse them by saying that they have God Ki on or off when it suits them.

The one base theory is hilariously bad at solving any of the problems that the two base theory does (and it's not limited to just Piccolo vs. Frost.)

What problems? They explained it in the show just fine. They said Piccolo had no chance at beating Frost and they said he fought defensively and strategically while using an attack above his limits. They said Trunks was pretty good and it was amazing how he'd come so far on his own.

The problem is that people won't just accept what they are told because "But this should have happened based on this" "But character X only improved by this amount" "But why didn't they do this and this against character X" "But how was he able to do this when this and this"

The two base theory is a power level debate. SBG Goku and SSG Goku only differ in terms of appearance. In terms of power level, SBG and SSG Goku are very similar if not the same.

We don't know if Saiyan Beyond Goku in the anime is as strong as SSJG.

I don't know why this makes you so uncomfortable, but it's time to admit that you were wrong in the manga.

No I'm certainly not wrong about that. You can't just change the rules so that it's now two non regular Super Saiyan theory because that's not what anyone was talking about.

Goku transformed from Base to Super Saiyan God just as he did in the movie, he clearly and undebatably changes. They specifically comment on his strenght increasing.

They have never at any point since the Beerus fight been a moment where Base Goku or Vegeta have "transformed" and they've commented on his strenght now being greater than it was before.

The Base Goku in the manga had near the exact same fight with Hit as Saiyan Beyond Goku had with Hit.

[Hugo Boss]

As far as I know, the two-base theory is based on the premise that Goku has a normal form, probably in the same realm of strength of Piccolo or Base Trunks, and a stronger normal form when he uses god ki, which translates into him having power similar/close to that of a Super Saiyan God, despite none noticing. I believe that's all. A very simple premise. The main problem may not even be the lack of explanation or visual clue, but the theory fails to cover why Goku didn't abandon Super Saiyan and its variations. He wouldn't need to waste energy in the process of a transformation if he has access to god ki without the need to transform. So, in the attempt of solving an aparent issue, it creates another one, even bigger.

My opinion. The anime has multiple writers, so this could explain why there are moments that we feel Base Goku has such contradictory powerlevels. It doesn't seem to be a big problem. There are multiple mini-theories out there that could work just fine. "Two-base" isn't the only one.

However, Goku using Super Saiyan God in the manga confirms he has two base forms? I don't think so. That's practically a confirmation that Goku turns into a different form when he uses god ki and that he gets stronger than when he is just a Super Saiyan. At least in the manga. He doesn't use Super Saiyan God against Hit in the anime, so we can't tell how god ki affects him when he is not a Super Saiyan Blue there.

If Goku stays as an SS2/SS3 to fight Black before turning SSB, the one base theory is confirmed.

Not really. In this scenario, you could still argue he is hiding his "Saiyan Beyond God" power, like in every other instance when he uses Super Saiyan or its variations.

[Cipher]

As far as I'm aware, the confusion and the debate over "two bases" comes from the following sequence of events:

1) The end of Battle of Gods, in both the movie and its TV adaptation, shows Goku fighting toe to toe with Beerus as a normal Super Saiyan. Beerus says he's absorbed/retained some of the power from his God form, so -- okay, Goku's much stronger now, even if it's not clear how temporary or permanent that power-up is.

2) In Resurrection F, Goku outclasses final form Freeza in base, while Freeza had scared off every fighter left on Earth (including the likes of Gohan and Piccolo) in his first form. So, okay! Goku and Vegeta are crazy strong in base form, and have a new godly Super Saiyan form to get even crazy stronger. Most people assumed this form had replaced the regular version of Super Saiyan, and everything seemed to line up just fine.

3) Goku goes normal Super Saiyan against Frost. So, okay -- maybe Super Saiyan Blue is a big increase and he can still get a smaller power boost from other Super Saiyan forms. If Frost is around Freeza's level, he could push Goku into transforming. Nothing too weird here.

4) Piccolo fights Frost, and though the series is clear that he's weaker, it's not clear how much weaker he is (see that whole debate above). So, has Piccolo powered up drastically? Is Frost actually not at Freeza's level? Was Goku playing around to an absurd degree, and if so, why would he need to transform at all? Does Goku have one base form that's around his Boo arc levels, and another that's strong enough to tackle Freeza last arc? Or is Piccolo drastically weaker than Frost despite the way their fight is presented, which still lets things play out fairly consistently with everything above?

5) Vegeta transforms into Super Saiyan against Cabba and Magetta. So ... are they crazy strong too? To what extent is Vegeta toying around?

Nothing above contradicts the pretty clear trajectory set up by the movies -- Frost and Magetta really could be that strong, Vegeta has alternative motivations for transforming against Cabba, and is able to assert control pretty quickly at the end -- but it's easy to see why it's more confusing than it was before. And then

6) Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 2 against Trunks. Is this just for show, since he should be able to beat him in base form, per his fight against Freeza? Goku also uses Super Saiyan 2 against Zamasu and Black. Are they both ridiculously strong (could be, but like, damn)? Is Goku actually using a weaker base form and receiving some boost from Super Saiyan 2? Is he just using it for show for some reason?

???

It's not exactly clean. I still lean toward there being one base form, since two separate versions is a pretty odd mechanic to go unexplained, and much more complex than what the movies were presenting, but the show's done a terrible job of explaining when the hell Goku feels the need to use lower forms of Super Saiyan, and what that means for understanding the relative strength of his opponents.

[GodKaio-Ken]

For what its worth I believe a lot of people are having trouble with power levels because the series (especially Anime) isn't written with consistent power levels in mind. There seem to just be "weak guys" "middle tier" and "Upper Tier" fighters whos actual power fluctuates to match the battle situation. Also no-one who is writing the anime is going to say "Oh no...Goku can't fight this guy well in base form because remember that time Gotenks did this and that it would ruin power levels...."

[Cipher]

For what its worth I believe a lot of people are having trouble with power levels because the series (especially Anime) isn't written with consistent power levels in mind. There seem to just be "weak guys" "middle tier" and "Upper Tier" fighters whos actual power fluctuates to match the battle situation. Also no-one who is writing the anime is going to say "Oh no...Goku can't fight this guy well in base form because remember that time Gotenks did this and that it would ruin power levels...."

No, of course not. And frankly, it could all have been kept much more vague and I'd be fine with it. It's the transformations that have really thrown a wrench in the works, since by and large characters haven't transformed unless the situation calls for it. That as one of the few things in the pre-revival material that was ruthlessly consistent.

It's gotten to the point where even I, as someone who's never enjoyed the "game" of specific power rankings, am a little distracted by it. Right now I couldn't tell you what general "tier" characters like Zamasu and Black even fall into. Nor characters like Frost, Magetta or Cabba, with absolute certainty, though they don't affect the story nearly as much.

Like, if Goku goes Super Saiyan 1 or 2 to fight someone, are they really fucking strong? Or are they in the same range Super Saiyan was all throughout the manga? Idk for sure, but that actually feels kind of important when it comes to characters like Zamasu and Black.

EDIT -- I guess Black being able to toss Super Saiyan 2 Trunks around in base form, but being beaten fairly easily by Super Saiyan 2 Goku, actually is pretty consistent with a "one base" theory, now that I think of it. So it's not that bad, though I don't think things are as clear as they could be.

[Bullza]

Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 2 against Trunks. Is this just for show, since he should be able to beat him in base form, per his fight against Freeza?

Wasn't the point of their "fight" in Goku trying to measure up how Blacks strenght compared to his own? So it wouldn't be that he needed to go Super Saiyan 2 or 3 against Trunks but that would be his best (minus SSJB which Trunks can't sense) and he wants Trunks to compare that to Black.

Still I think there's few things that puts Trunks up there even if he isn't as strong.

Like, if Goku goes Super Saiyan 1 or 2 to fight someone, are they really fucking strong?

Well when he transformed into Super Saiyan for Frost it seemed as though he did that just to urge Frost to go all out because he knew he was still holding back.

He went...was it Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 for Black? Which makes sense because he's supposed to be stronger than his Super Saiyan 3.

As for Zamasu he definitely seemed to go Super Saiyan 2 there. That's pretty specific isn't it? If his Base or Super Saiyan was enough then why go further? I could only guess that means Zamasu inbetween 1 and 2. They did say he was fighting prodigy.

[DBZ Macky]

Is Frieza's final form still 226x first form?

Please share your thoughts on these imaginary numbers:

---Battle of Gods Saga---
Whis= 1,500,000,000,000
Beerus= 1,000,000,000,000
Beerus (Vs. SSJ3 Goku, 5%)= 50,000,000,000
Beerus (Vs. Mutated Vegeta, 10%)= 100,000,000,000
Beerus (Vs. Initial SSJG Goku, 50%)= 500,000,000,000
Beerus (Vs. SSJG Goku, 70%)= 700,000,000,000
Goku= 90,000,000
Goku (SSJ)= 4,500,000,000
Goku (SSJ2)= 9,000,000,000
Goku (SSJ3)= 36,000,000,000
Goku (+4 SSJ Power)= 300,000,000,000
Goku (Super Saiyan God, Initial)= 450,000,000,000
Goku (Super Saiyan God, 80%)= 480,000,000,000
Goku (Super Saiyan God)= 600,000,000,000
Vegeta= 90,000,000
Vegeta (SSJ)= 4,500,000,000
Vegeta (SSJ2)= 9,000,000,000
Vegeta (Mutation)= 90,000,000,000
Gohan= 70,000,000
Gohan (Super Saiyan)= 3,500,000,000
Gohan (Ultimate)= 70,000,000,000
Goten= 15,000,000
Trunks= 19,000,000
Gotenks= 170,000,000
Gotenks (Super Saiyan)= 8,500,000,000
Gotenks (Super Saiyan 3)= 68,000,000,000
Videl= 15
Piccolo= 1,900,000,000
Android 18= 340,000,000
Krillin= 150,000
Tien= 100,000

---Revival of 'F'---
Sorbet= 2,000
Tagoma= 20,000
Shisami= 20,000
Shisami (4 months later)= 1,000,000,000
Tagoma (4 months later)= 2,500,000,000
Frieza's army= 500-1,000
Jaco= 3,000
Master Roshi= 5,000
Tien= 115,000
Krillin= 140,000
Gohan= 60,000,000
Gohan (SSJ)= 3,000,000,000
Piccolo= 2,000,000,000
Goku= 70,000,000,000
Goku (SSJB)= 700,000,000,000
Vegeta= 70,000,000,000
Vegeta (SSJB)= 700,000,000,000
Frieza (1st form)= 9,000,000,000
Frieza (True form)= 67,500,000,000
Frieza (Golden form)= 720,000,000,000
Frieza (Golden form, tired)= 675,000,000,000
Goten= 14,000,000
Trunks= 18,000,000
Gotenks= 160,000,000
Gotenks (Super Saiyan)= 8,000,000,000

---Champa Saga---
Gohan= 62,000,000
Goku= 170,000,000
Goku (SSJ)= 8,500,000,000
Goku (SJBG)= 85,000,000,000
Goku (SSJB)= 850,000,000,000
Goku (SSJB, Kaioken)= 1,700,000,000,000
Goku (SSJB, Kaioken x10)= 8,500,000,000,000
Goku (SSJB3, Kaioken x10)= 68,000,000,000,000
Vegeta= 170,000,000
Vegeta (SSJ)= 8,500,000,000
Vegeta (SSJB)= 850,000,000,000
Vegeta (SSJB, Tired)= 80,000,000,000
Piccolo= 3,200,000,000
Botamo= 390,000,000
Frost= 53,000,000
Frost (Assault Form)= 200,000,000
Frost (Final Form)= 6,000,000,000
Frost (Final Form, Tired)= 4,000,000,000
Cabba= 150,000,000
Cabba (SSJ)= 7,500,000,000
Magetta (Initial)= 230,000,000
Magetta (Full power)= 8,050,000,000
Hit (Holding Back)= 85,000,000,000
Hit= 850,000,000,000
Hit (Improvement 1)= 1,700,000,000,000
Hit (Improvement 2)= 4,250,000,000,000
Hit (Improvement 3)= 8,500,000,000,000
Hit (Full-Power)= 8,800,000,000,000
Champa= 9,900,000,000,000

---Copy Saga---
Goten= 13,000,000
Trunks= 17,000,000
Gotenks= 150,000,000
Gotenks (Super Saiyan)= 7,500,000,000
Gotenks (Super Saiyan 3)= 60,000,000,000

---Trunks Saga---
Krillin= 130,000
Goku= 172,000,000
Goku (SSJ)= 8,600,000,000
Goku (SSJ2)= 17,200,000,000
Goku (SSJ3)= 68,800,000,000
Goku (SSJB)= 860,000,000,000
Vegeta= 172,000,000
Vegeta (Saiyan Beyond God)= 86,000,000,000
Vegeta (SSJB, Holding Back)= 100,000,000,000
Vegeta (SSJB)= 860,000,000,000
Trunks= 160,000,000
Trunks (SSJ)= 8,000,000,000
Trunks (SSJ, Masenko)= 10,640,000,000
Trunks (USSJ)= 16,000,000,000
Trunks (SSJ2)= 16,000,000,000
Black (Holding Back)= 18,000,000,000
Black (Full-Power)= 90,000,000,000
Black (SSJR)= 900,000,000,000

[Krillin1994]

has there been any implication that Goten and Trunks have gotten weaker since the Buu saga?

[Chiki]

As far as I know, the two-base theory is based on the premise that Goku has a normal form, probably in the same realm of strength of Piccolo or Base Trunks, and a stronger normal form when he uses god ki, which translates into him having power similar/close to that of a Super Saiyan God, despite none noticing. I believe that's all. A very simple premise.

Yes, and that's exactly why there is no difference between the original theory (Base and SBG) and the manga's two bases (Base and SSG). They are similar/the same/close in power level.

The main problem may not even be the lack of explanation or visual clue, but the theory fails to cover why Goku didn't abandon Super Saiyan and its variations. He wouldn't need to waste energy in the process of a transformation if he has access to god ki without the need to transform. So, in the attempt of solving an aparent issue, it creates another one, even bigger.

It does cover it. Goku and Vegeta want a challenge, but don't want to just own their opponents in the tournament/get owned by them, so they turn SS for guys like Frost and Magetta and Cabba who aren't strong but can't be defeated by Base without SSG.

My opinion. The anime has multiple writers, so this could explain why there are moments that we feel Base Goku has such contradictory powerlevels. It doesn't seem to be a big problem. There are multiple mini-theories out there that could work just fine. "Two-base" isn't the only one.

But if the anime has multiple writers, each with their own theory, then multiple theories are going to be true at the same time, which leads to logical contradictions such as "Goku's base is both strong and weak." You can prove anything from a logical contradiction, including things like 1+1=3 and I am pregnant and not pregnant.

You could be right, and it could indeed be that the anime is logically contradictory and should be ignored. The manga is not and we'll have to go with the manga if that is the case.

However, Goku using Super Saiyan God in the manga confirms he has two base forms? I don't think so. That's practically a confirmation that Goku turns into a different form when he uses god ki and that he gets stronger than when he is just a Super Saiyan. At least in the manga. He doesn't use Super Saiyan God against Hit in the anime, so we can't tell how god ki affects him when he is not a Super Saiyan Blue there.

If a base for a Saiyan is a non-Super Saiyan form, which it is, then SSG is a second Base.

Bolded part: That's what the two base theory says, isn't it?

If Goku stays as an SS2/SS3 to fight Black before turning SSB, the one base theory is confirmed.

Not really. In this scenario, you could still argue he is hiding his "Saiyan Beyond God" power, like in every other instance when he uses Super Saiyan or its variations.

Since the two base theory argues that the gap between SS3 and SSB is very large, how would Goku be able to fight Super Saiyan Princess Black without going SBG/SSG? If Goku has a form like that, he'll use it.

EDIT -- I guess Black being able to toss Super Saiyan 2 Trunks around in base form, but being beaten fairly easily by Super Saiyan 2 Goku, actually is pretty consistent with a "one base" theory, now that I think of it. So it's not that bad, though I don't think things are as clear as they could be.

Watch the anime a bit more carefully. It was stated multiple times in the fight that Black wasn't going all out. Even an episode preview said he wasn't taking it seriously. Base w/o SSG Goku is much stronger than Base Trunks anyway so turning SS2 multiplies that boost. Also, Trunks outright said that Black was stronger than SS3 Goku, confirming that Black wasn't going all out.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That could have been all Toyotaro's doing. Both fights started off the same and practically ended the same but the middle part was different between the two versions so that may have been left down to the writers.

Which is why I said that Toriyama was OK with it. Toriyama is supervising Toyotaro's manga page-by-page & corrects anything he doesn't like, so the fact that SSG is there means that he was OK with it.

They left the 70% comment out in the anime.

They left a lot of things out of the anime for no reason. It was still implied that Beerus was using most of his power against Goku & not a small portion, since Beerus was lying about using his full power, and he surprised that Whis noticed he was lying. Not to mention it wouldn't make sense for Beerus to have so much fun with someone so weak, and we also know that he used 10% of his power against Enraged SS2 Vegeta, who was much, much weaker than SSG Goku. And let's not forget that the 70% comment comes from Toriyama's movie, the original source material from the original author, so it takes precedence above anything else.

There's differences in what forms are used. Super Saiyan 2 and 3 appeared when they weren't going to etc.

Toriyama never said that Goku was unable to go Super Saiyan 2, 3, and God anymore, he just said that he probably wouldn't use them anymore & changed his mind on the way. It's very different from completely retconning something out of nowhere without any intended explanation.

I'll watch it again when I have more time but I checked the manga and there isn't really a way to say. Goku took him by surprise and attacked him, Hit dodged his attack and the fight ended. Kaioken always multiplied their powers before and they said that this time, it doesn't make much sense to me that Goku would hardly get any stronger. He blitzed him as soon as he did it.

The manga can't help because the SSB Goku vs Hit fight there is extremely short. Watch Episode 39 at the beginning of the SSB Goku vs Hit fight, where Hit was unable to use the Tokitobashi and fought with Goku without using it. Then watch the KKx10 SSB Goku vs Hit fight in the same episode, and see what kind of blows Hit survives.

All he said was that Vegeta was after him so he could help to lower Frost's stamina even if it's only by a little bit. It's nothing to suggest he's close to Frost.

But Piccolo wouldn't have been able to do such a thing if Frost is many thousands of times stronger than him. Piccolo was strong enough to make Frost tired, which means that they are not worlds apart. If things were so easy, Piccolo would have defeated Nappa, Vegeta, Freeza, and Cell.

He was barely at that level on the day he went to Beerus' planet. They trained for several months (over four) since then and got a lot stronger. Frieza was weaker but can't have been that much weaker that he was weaker than Goku before he'd started training.

Goku turned SSJB and told him about being a God. Frieza wasn't convinced and attacked Goku to see if he was bluffing or not. If he could sense Goku then he'd have known how strong Goku was and wouldn't have need to measure his strenght.

We have no idea about how strong Goku became, and how Freeza compared to him before his training. Either way, I'll disagree about Final Form Freeza being unable to sense god ki. I watched the scene again, and Freeza is simply testing Goku's movements to measure his power more accurately, which has happened before. If Freeza was unable to sense Goku's ki in his Final Form, but then became able to sense it in his Golden Form, we would have gotten an indication about this since this is the first time Freeza encounters a god, like we got an indication from almost everyone that they couldn't sense god ki back in BoG.

Well at the very least in this thread nobody brought that up before and I didn't see it in the Resurrection F power level thread either. Like I said there were whole discussions about whether or not Final Form Frieza was weaker than Kid Buu based on the strenght of Base Goku and his fight with Uub. Some were saying that Final Form Frieza was weaker SSJ2 Vegeta and other stuff. Certainly nobody was talking about how that was two different Base Goku's of which even if it were the one who fought Uub wasn't at regular level either and...he didn't have a white aura?

I'm not saying that Goku was using his SSG powers against Oob, I'm saying that he didn't use them and he was at his regular level. Oob cause trouble to base Goku, and Oob was written as being weaker than Pure Boo, not many times stronger than him.

As far as I'm aware, the confusion and the debate over "two bases" comes from the following sequence of events:

[spoiler]1) The end of Battle of Gods, in both the movie and its TV adaptation, shows Goku fighting toe to toe with Beerus as a normal Super Saiyan. Beerus says he's absorbed/retained some of the power from his God form, so -- okay, Goku's much stronger now, even if it's not clear how temporary or permanent that power-up is.

2) In Resurrection F, Goku outclasses final form Freeza in base, while Freeza had scared off every fighter left on Earth (including the likes of Gohan and Piccolo) in his first form. So, okay! Goku and Vegeta are crazy strong in base form, and have a new godly Super Saiyan form to get even crazy stronger. Most people assumed this form had replaced the regular version of Super Saiyan, and everything seemed to line up just fine.

3) Goku goes normal Super Saiyan against Frost. So, okay -- maybe Super Saiyan Blue is a big increase and he can still get a smaller power boost from other Super Saiyan forms. If Frost is around Freeza's level, he could push Goku into transforming. Nothing too weird here.

4) Piccolo fights Frost, and though the series is clear that he's weaker, it's not clear how much weaker he is (see that whole debate above). So, has Piccolo powered up drastically? Is Frost actually not at Freeza's level? Was Goku playing around to an absurd degree, and if so, why would he need to transform at all? Does Goku have one base form that's around his Boo arc levels, and another that's strong enough to tackle Freeza last arc? Or is Piccolo drastically weaker than Frost despite the way their fight is presented, which still lets things play out fairly consistently with everything above?

5) Vegeta transforms into Super Saiyan against Cabba and Magetta. So ... are they crazy strong too? To what extent is Vegeta toying around?

Nothing above contradicts the pretty clear trajectory set up by the movies -- Frost and Magetta really could be that strong, Vegeta has alternative motivations for transforming against Cabba, and is able to assert control pretty quickly at the end -- but it's easy to see why it's more confusing than it was before. And then

6) Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 2 against Trunks. Is this just for show, since he should be able to beat him in base form, per his fight against Freeza? Goku also uses Super Saiyan 2 against Zamasu and Black. Are they both ridiculously strong (could be, but like, damn)? Is Goku actually using a weaker base form and receiving some boost from Super Saiyan 2? Is he just using it for show for some reason?

???[/spoiler]

It's not exactly clean. I still lean toward there being one base form, since two separate versions is a pretty odd mechanic to go unexplained, and much more complex than what the movies were presenting, but the show's done a terrible job of explaining when the hell Goku feels the need to use lower forms of Super Saiyan, and what that means for understanding the relative strength of his opponents.

Well, you are kinda wrong. It was established in BoG & FnF that after Goku absorbed the power of SSG, his base form became insignificantly weaker than SSG, and the regular SS & SSG forms no longer gave him significant enough boosts for him to keep using them, with SSB (which was the new regular SS form at the time) being the only useful form with a significant boost. The the tournament in the U6 arc starts, and Super Saiyan gives a x50 increase once again, SS2 & SS3 also give their x2 & x4 increases respectively, and SSG returns significantly more powerful than these SS/2/3 forms, not to mention that base & SS Goku is comparable to Piccolo, who is still weaker than Majin Boo, and SS2 Goku is comparable to SS2 Trunks, who can't sense god ki, while base Goku with SSG powers could sense god ki because he had barely reached the level of power to do that. If you pay a little attention, it's very clear that something is going on.

[omaro34]

There are far too many contradictions in terms of battle strength in the series, I stopped taking them too seriously a long time ago.

[buutenks]

I dont believe it is possible to make sense of current power levels.

[ZombieVito]

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/766252707770347520

Looks like the 2 base theory is pretty much alive in the manga.

[Chiki]

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/766252707770347520

Looks like the 2 base theory is pretty much alive in the manga.

Now we can finally drop the bullshit that Trunks is "post-God." LOL

[Khin]

Considering that it was never implied that Goku absorbed the Super Saiyan God power in the manga, the line completely makes sense and makes the power scaling in the manga much less of a head ache compared to the anime. I really don't see anything that hits the two-base theory in this, since i see the manga as.

Base -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 -> Super Saiyan 3 -> Super Saiyan God -> Super Saiyan Blue

[Cipher]

Well, you are kinda wrong. It was established in BoG & FnF that after Goku absorbed the power of SSG, his base form became insignificantly weaker than SSG, and the regular SS & SSG forms no longer gave him significant enough boosts for him to keep using them, with SSB (which was the new regular SS form at the time) being the only useful form with a significant boost. The the tournament in the U6 arc starts, and Super Saiyan gives a x50 increase once again, SS2 & SS3 also give their x2 & x4 increases respectively, and SSG returns significantly more powerful than these SS/2/3 forms, not to mention that base & SS Goku is comparable to Piccolo, who is still weaker than Majin Boo, and SS2 Goku is comparable to SS2 Trunks, who can't sense god ki, while base Goku with SSG powers could sense god ki because he had barely reached the level of power to do that. If you pay a little attention, it's very clear that something is going on.

That's adding a lot of interpretation and assumption (not to mention hard numbers the series proper never uses), when I was just trying to recap the events that have led to viewer confusion.

Considering that it was never implied that Goku absorbed the Super Saiyan God power in the manga, the line completely makes sense and makes the power scaling in the manga much less of a head ache compared to the anime. I really don't see anything that hits the two-base theory in this, since i see the manga as.

Base -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 -> Super Saiyan 3 -> Super Saiyan God -> Super Saiyan Blue

Conveniently, we never see Goku fight Freeza in the manga (does base Goku fight Freeza in the "F" adaptation?), which is one of the lynchpins of any relative-strength confusion.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That's adding a lot of interpretation and assumption (not to mention hard numbers the series proper never uses), when I was just trying to recap the events that have led to viewer confusion.

Could you be more specific? I only stated the facts.