"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Xeztin]

Additional info does not mean contradiction.
There is no contradiction ever.

The anime implies SSJ is now as powerful if not more than SSG while the manga states SSJ is less powerful than SSG. How is that not a contradiction?

Where?

I am confused by this, Super Saiyan is the same as it's always been the only form onpar/beyond with SSG in the anime is SSJB. Same in the manga too, Super Saiyan has been the same since it's introduction in the original manga. I'm guessing your referring to the BoG arc where Goku fought Beerus in SSJ with the strength of SSG, but I chalk that up to him "Holding on to the feeling (Power)" for a bit longer than the usual 30 minutes and then he let it go. After that it took either SSG or SSJB to bring out "God Ki" again, or that's my thoughts on it anyways. The whole SSJ on par with SSG in BoG was just the pure will power of Goku wanting to protect Earth is my opinion, in other words it was a one-off thing.

[Black_Liger]

Why do they say that about Beerus?.... and why hasn't it been revealed in the anime... maybe... something bad will happen to beerus but... HEY. Can someone tell me, who's the kaioshin linked to beerus? cuz if it was Old kaiohshin, Beerus freaking died on buu saga and then came back to life LOL.

[TheMikado]

The anime states Goku absorbs SSG power says he didn't power down much and shows Base Goku/Vegeta at around SSJ3 level with final form Frieza and certainly far above SSJ3 Gotenks in their base forms. The manga shows none of these while also specifically showing their base forms are below SSG and not drastically stronger then their Buu arc base.

I am confused by this, Super Saiyan is the same as it's always been the only form onpar/beyond with SSG in the anime is SSJB. Same in the manga too, Super Saiyan has been the same since it's introduction in the original manga. I'm guessing your referring to the BoG arc where Goku fought Beerus in SSJ with the strength of SSG, but I chalk that up to him "Holding on to the feeling (Power)" for a bit longer than the usual 30 minutes and then he let it go. After that it took either SSG or SSJB to bring out "God Ki" again, or that's my thoughts on it anyways. The whole SSJ on par with SSG in BoG was just the pure will power of Goku wanting to protect Earth is my opinion, in other words it was a one-off thing.

I won't make this into a power debate I will just talk about the forms used. So what about SSG being transform able at will and SSB being perfect Ki control in the anime to allow Kkx10 while draining to 10% in the manga.

[Bullza]

Maybe Super Saiyan God is itself a multiplier because it's not a fixed level, it can vary one from Saiyan to the next depending on how strong they are.

So perhaps because Goku was stronger when he fought Hit than when he fought Beerus then maybe Super Saiyan God was also stronger against Hit than when it was used against Beerus.

[kinisking]

Maybe Super Saiyan God is itself a multiplier because it's not a fixed level, it can vary one from Saiyan to the next depending on how strong they are.

So perhaps because Goku was stronger when he fought Hit than when he fought Beerus then maybe Super Saiyan God was also stronger against Hit than when it was used against Beerus.

That's true! Toriyama did say it was a multiplier.

[Bullza]

That's true! Toriyama did say it was a multiplier.

Well it's something that had completely slipped my mind until recently when I saw someone quote Toriyama on reddit.

Toriyama was asked if the other saiyans might possibly become a Super Saiyan God one day and he said yes but the power would vary depending on the saiyan who became one.

I think a lot of the fanbase has the impression that Super Saiyan God is just at one fixed level for everyone. I mean why couldn't it get stronger all the other forms do.

[Hellspawn28]

I guess having Beerus's life force being link with U7 Kaioshin is not a bad idea. It does show that he has a weakness and can create bigger risks. I guess Beerus didn't die when the other kaioshin died from Buu is that his life force may be only linked with Kaioshin.

[Zephyr]

Which Kaioshin is he linked with, though?

[kinisking]

Which Kaioshin is he linked with, though?

Why can't it be all of them? As long as one lives it's okay.

Well it's something that had completely slipped my mind until recently when I saw someone quote Toriyama on reddit.

Toriyama was asked if the other saiyans might possibly become a Super Saiyan God one day and he said yes but the power would vary depending on the saiyan who became one.

I think a lot of the fanbase has the impression that Super Saiyan God is just at one fixed level for everyone. I mean why couldn't it get stronger all the other forms do

It had slipped my mind too.

[Zephyr]

Yeah I guess that works.

[Alruneia]

Which Kaioshin is he linked with, though?

Seems to be all of them. As long as any one Supreme Kai is alive, Beerus will stay alive. Whis knew about Old Kai, so he didn't interfere when Buu killed and absorbed almost everyone else, but he was worried about Beerus dying before remembering him.

Ninja'd but still posting

[LightBing]

That's true! Toriyama did say it was a multiplier.

Well it's something that had completely slipped my mind until recently when I saw someone quote Toriyama on reddit.

Toriyama was asked if the other saiyans might possibly become a Super Saiyan God one day and he said yes but the power would vary depending on the saiyan who became one.

I think a lot of the fanbase has the impression that Super Saiyan God is just at one fixed level for everyone. I mean why couldn't it get stronger all the other forms do.

There's an actual example with the original Super Saiyan God who wasn't able to defeat the evil Saiyans within the time limit. I'm assuming there weren't SSJ3 Saiyans during his time to even consider a chance of escape.
Of course some might have hid themselves but taking into account the context, I don't believe that's the case. He got stronger, not strong enough.

[Grimlock]

Finally we can get to see Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks! It's been done way much better than in the anime.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[sintzu]

What does Vegeta say here ?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I'm guessing your referring to the BoG arc where Goku fought Beerus in SSJ with the strength of SSG, but I chalk that up to him "Holding on to the feeling (Power)" for a bit longer than the usual 30 minutes and then he let it go.

I fully agree with this and in the movie Vegeta tells Goku it'll be his turn next which implies that Goku needed the ritual again in order to reach that power.

[HeroR]

I don't know how to feel about this. On one hand I think having the Kaioshin and the Hakaishin linked is a pretty stupid idea, but on the other hand the fact that Beerus might finally be in somekind of danger after all this time could lead to some tension building up.

Also, it makes sense how Zamasu would take control over Universe 10 so easily, killing Gowasu and whoever might be a Kaioshin there, leading to that Universe's Hakaishin to die and allowing him to control Black unoppossed. However, it's hard to take in that nobody would investigate such a thing. Maybe the Whis-race guy from the next episode was U10 Hakaishin's attendant?

If it's not just something Toyotaro pulled out of his ass, it could lead the story to some very very interesting places, though I think it most likely is just one of his additions.

I would have to agree with you about the tension that has been well needed in this series. If somehow Black's SSRose form is that strong he somehow manages to escape using the actual time machine back to the current timeline and causes Havoc there but more importantly tries to kill the remaining Kaioshin that would make things very interesting. It would just be hard since Beerus and Whis are still leagues above everyone right now to find a way to get them to not get too involved with the fighting until it is too late. Just some added drama or suspense besides what Trunks is going through. Bring it to the type of tension the warriors had when they fought Freeza on namek that they just looked at each other and thought wtf are we going to do.

But even if Black kills Beerus through the Kais, that still leaves who is leagues stronger than Beerus. So you don't really add tension when you have a super powerful attended around.

[Kagari]

What does Vegeta say here ?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I'm guessing your referring to the BoG arc where Goku fought Beerus in SSJ with the strength of SSG, but I chalk that up to him "Holding on to the feeling (Power)" for a bit longer than the usual 30 minutes and then he let it go.

I fully agree with this and in the movie Vegeta tells Goku it'll be his turn next which implies that Goku needed the ritual again in order to reach that power.

"That guy... Even though he hasn't transformed he's powered up about as much as Super Saiyan 3 Kakarot..."

[sintzu]

"That guy... Even though he hasn't transformed he's powered up about as much as Super Saiyan 3 Kakarot..."

So Ssj2 Trunks is just as strong as Ssj3 Goku ? the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Wait, if that's the case won't that mean Trunks' base is a lot stronger than Goku's ?

[Kagari]

"That guy... Even though he hasn't transformed he's powered up about as much as Super Saiyan 3 Kakarot..."

So Ssj2 Trunks is just as strong as Ssj3 Goku ? the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Wait, if that's the case won't that mean Trunks' base is a lot stronger than Goku's ?

I try not to understand power levels in Super anymore. Especially when the anime had base Vegeta outclassing SSJ3 Gotenks.

[Grimlock]

Especially when the anime had base Vegeta outclassing SSJ3 Gotenks.

That was Toei thing exclusively, and even if it had come from Toriyama. What's the issue? Goten and Trunks don't train but Vegeta kept training for years. Considering we're in AGE 780 by now, six years has passed since Buu saga. You really think that these years Vegeta trained, attained Super Saiyan God, then trained again and attained Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, he didn't outclass Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks? That would be bullshit.

[HeroR]

Especially when the anime had base Vegeta outclassing SSJ3 Gotenks.

That was Toei thing exclusively, and even if it had come from Toriyama. What's the issue? Goten and Trunks don't train but Vegeta kept training for years. Considering we're in AGE 780 by now, six years has passed since Buu saga. You really think that these years Vegeta trained, attained Super Saiyan God, then trained again and attained Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, he didn't outclass Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks? That would be bullshit.

I don't see why Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks being no matched for base from Vegeta as being farfetched given that Black's base is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks who is as powerful as Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Vegeta during the Buu Saga.

Also, Beerus two-shotted Super Saiyan 3 Goku without trying, and took down Ultimate Gohan with an equal amount of ease. Goku in his base and Super Saiyan form took hits from a semi-serious Beerus and stopped a planet buster. So Goku's base in Battle of Gods was already way stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku before he absorbed godhood and Goku has only gotten stronger since then. So base form Vegeta who is about Goku's equal schooling Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks shouldn't surprise anyone who have been paying attention.