Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Regarding if Goku absorbed the "God power" at the end of the BoG, each continuity does it differently.

Movie Continuity: Goku definitely absorbs it. In RoF, I presume the intention is to have his Base be at least close to SSJG. SSJ is useless. In BoG Goku went SSJ at the end because it's has more impact. Pretty sure Mr.Toriyama said something like this.

Manga Continuity: Goku doesn't absorb it. The important line and the post-absorption fight are absent. RoF, the arc which creates the most problems is absent. We get a narrator line saying that by training with Whis both Goku and Vegeta obtained SSJB, which surpasses SSJG.

Anime Continuity: Goku absorbing it is ambiguous. While it's 100% sure he absorbs it during the fight, afterwards we have some confusing information which might indicate it was temporary, like the tree comparison.
In the anime, everything is poorly explained if it's even explained at all. Guessing anything is like walking through a minefield.

To preserve my sanity I only use the manga to track the power levels. The anime power levels, at this point I don't care that much. While the manga isn't perfect and doesn't tell us everything(so Goku can still use SSJG?), it doesn't shoot itself in the foot and makes sense within itself.

The power boost was never stated or hinted as temporary in the anime. Krillin said in the in-between episodes before Resurrection 'F' that Goku is much stronger than before. It was showed again when Vegeta is able to sense Whis when he couldn't before. The tree statement was more about how they compared to Beerus since the anime bumped him from the movie. And it should be assumed that Goku took godhood in all versions of BOG since Toriyama wrote the original movie. The animealso showed base form Vegeta as stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, proven that Goku kept his godhood power and Vegeta caught up.

[TheMikado]

So what does everyone think of Vegeta saying SSJ2 Trunks is almost as strong as SSJ3 Goku. Wouldn't that make Trunks stronger than Vegeta and Goku as SSJ2s???
That's God tier plus some if you believe in the one base theory!!

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You'll have to elaborate on those first two things for me, I'm afraid.

In the FnF manga, we see this:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
And don't tell me it's like Goku & Oozaru from against Piccolo Daimao so it doesn't mean anything, in that case Oozaru was symbolizing Goku's newly drawn out dormant powers & rage. This is just Goku training with Whis.

As for Dragon Ball Heroes, in the card that was made to promote the movie, base FnF Goku's transformation into... base Goku is described as powering-up "into a Saiyan who's surpassed God", meaning that base Goku is now stronger than he was as a SSG back then.

As for the third, I don't and won't claim that Goku actually lost the god-power after fighting Beerus, or anything. Just that it seems like he lost his hold on it or access to it, and needed training to use it at will. It's a strange and intense new power that he needed to have forced upon him by the ritual at first.

None of these are even hinted. We were told that Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God and made it his own, in both movie & anime. We saw in the movie that this allowed him to turn into a Super Saiyan God without the ritual, but Toriyama said that the form is useless anyway because he has absorbed its power & made it his own.

Where does all this "Goku lost his access to SSG" come from anyway?

[HeroR]

You'll have to elaborate on those first two things for me, I'm afraid.

In the FnF manga, we see this:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
And don't tell me it's like Goku & Oozaru from against Piccolo Daimao so it doesn't mean anything, in that case Oozaru was symbolizing Goku's newly drawn out dormant powers & rage. This is just Goku training with Whis.

As for Dragon Ball Heroes, in the card that was made to promote the movie, base FnF Goku's transformation into... base Goku is described as powering-up "into a Saiyan who's surpassed God", meaning that base Goku is now stronger than he was as a SSG back then.

As for the third, I don't and won't claim that Goku actually lost the god-power after fighting Beerus, or anything. Just that it seems like he lost his hold on it or access to it, and needed training to use it at will. It's a strange and intense new power that he needed to have forced upon him by the ritual at first.

None of these are even hinted. We were told that Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God and made it his own, in both movie & anime. We saw in the movie that this allowed him to turn into a Super Saiyan God without the ritual, but Toriyama said that the form is useless anyway because he has absorbed its power & made it his own.

Where does all this "Goku lost his access to SSG" come from anyway?

Because Whis said Goku and Vegeta are only a small tree compared to the power of the gods. Although, he was most likely comparing their current power to full power Beerus since he was made stronger in the anime compared to the movie to keep up with Toriyama's words that Goku and Vegeta won't be surpassing Beerus anytime soon.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Because Whis said Goku and Vegeta are only a small tree compared to the power of the gods. Although, he was most likely comparing their current power to full power Beerus since he was made stronger in the anime compared to the movie to keep up with Toriyama's words that Goku and Vegeta won't be surpassing Beerus anytime soon.

You are taking it too literally. Whis isn't saying that Goku & Vegeta are trillion times weaker than Beerus, like the tree's size compared to the big one. He is just using it make a point, that Goku & Vegeta have still a long way to reach Beerus.

[Xeztin]

You'll have to elaborate on those first two things for me, I'm afraid.

In the FnF manga, we see this:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
And don't tell me it's like Goku & Oozaru from against Piccolo Daimao so it doesn't mean anything, in that case Oozaru was symbolizing Goku's newly drawn out dormant powers & rage. This is just Goku training with Whis.

As for Dragon Ball Heroes, in the card that was made to promote the movie, base FnF Goku's transformation into... base Goku is described as powering-up "into a Saiyan who's surpassed God", meaning that base Goku is now stronger than he was as a SSG back then.

As for the third, I don't and won't claim that Goku actually lost the god-power after fighting Beerus, or anything. Just that it seems like he lost his hold on it or access to it, and needed training to use it at will. It's a strange and intense new power that he needed to have forced upon him by the ritual at first.

None of these are even hinted. We were told that Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God and made it his own, in both movie & anime. We saw in the movie that this allowed him to turn into a Super Saiyan God without the ritual, but Toriyama said that the form is useless anyway because he has absorbed its power & made it his own.

Where does all this "Goku lost his access to SSG" come from anyway?

I think the original idea was to have Goku absorb the God Ki and be as strong as SSG or stronger in base or at least that was what they seemed to be pushing and that he'd no longer use the normal SSJ line-up. Somewhere a long the way, it got flip-flopped into the idea of Goku absorbed the "God Ki" in BoG arc after dropping out of SSG and held onto the SSG power in his normal SSJ form for a bit longer than the 30 mins. I'm guessing this was because of his will and determination to defeat Beerus, I believe it was stated somewhere (I believe by Beerus) that he held onto "the feeling" even after loosing the form. After that it was stated that he absorbed the God Ki into his own body yada yada yada. Goten asked Goku afterwards what it feels like now that he is a "God"" to even further push the idea that his base was basically SSG.

In the Movies: One could say Goku's base is on par with SSG and that he can't use the normal forms anymore.
In the anime: The idea now seems to be that Goku held onto SSG's power in SSJ during BoG for a bit longer than 30 minutes because of his will and that he absorbed the God Ki itself but he needed Whis to teach him how to bring out via SSJ (SSJB).
In the manga: Goku can go SSG at will and use all his normal forms.
You have 3 different retellings and Toei and Toriyama flip flopping everywhere with Toyotaro putting his own spin on it on top of that. It's going to be hard to find one thing that these 3 retellings agree on. Also I'd throw the FnF manga in the same category as the movie and not put it in the same continuity as the manga, it'd most likely have been a lot different if drawn for the manga and not for the promotion of the movie.

The general idea of why Goku lost access to God Ki is that when he went into normal Super Saiyan with the power of SSG, he should have been SSJB. Because he wasn't, it's chalked up to being "temporarily". Then you have Whis come along and learning he and Vegeta SSJB and all of a sudden they start mentioning God Ki a lot again. Super Saiyan can also be sensed.

[HeroR]

Because Whis said Goku and Vegeta are only a small tree compared to the power of the gods. Although, he was most likely comparing their current power to full power Beerus since he was made stronger in the anime compared to the movie to keep up with Toriyama's words that Goku and Vegeta won't be surpassing Beerus anytime soon.

You are taking it too literally. Whis isn't saying that Goku & Vegeta are trillion times weaker than Beerus, like the tree's size compared to the big one. He is just using it make a point, that Goku & Vegeta have still a long way to reach Beerus.

It depends. In the movie Goku was able to push Beerus to 70% of his power. The anime has no such line and it's left vague at how hard Beerus fought. So the small tree and large tower makes little sense if Goku and Vegeta were already more than half way to Beerus' peak.

[TheMikado]

So what does everyone think of Vegeta saying SSJ2 Trunks is almost as strong as SSJ3 Goku. Wouldn't that make Trunks stronger than Vegeta and Goku as SSJ2s???
That's God tier plus some if you believe in the one base theory!!

So no one cares that this completely contrasts the "surpressed" "holding back" Goku vs Trunks spar?

[Xeztin]

So what does everyone think of Vegeta saying SSJ2 Trunks is almost as strong as SSJ3 Goku. Wouldn't that make Trunks stronger than Vegeta and Goku as SSJ2s???
That's God tier plus some if you believe in the one base theory!!

So no one cares that this completely contrasts the "surpressed" "holding back" Goku vs Trunks spar?

I believe it was a throw away line to try to push that Trunks has been fighting and training all this time and to give a little pat on back to Trunk's new form. If you want to get into it in context I'd say it's because he is a hybrid? Trunks being stronger than SSJ2 Goku or Vegeta throws Trunks a bone I suppose. You could say Goku was holding back SSJ3 and Blue not full power SSJ2.

[Chiki]

So what does everyone think of Vegeta saying SSJ2 Trunks is almost as strong as SSJ3 Goku. Wouldn't that make Trunks stronger than Vegeta and Goku as SSJ2s???
That's God tier plus some if you believe in the one base theory!!

So no one cares that this completely contrasts the "surpressed" "holding back" Goku vs Trunks spar?

I think it's ridiculous that SSJ2 Trunks is so strong but w/e. Maybe because he's a hybrid, but when Vegeta and Trunks trained together during the Cell arc, they were around equals, so Trunks isn't really more talented than Vegeta.

[Bullza]

If so that would place, base Black and Magetta at ss god level, which i doubt. since no one commented on how massive their PL is, if they would have been at ss god level.

I'm pretty sure Whis commented on Black's power being impressive, besides they said he was stronger than SSJ3 Goku. They didn't comment on Magetta but he'd be very powerful if Vegeta had to use his ultimate attack on him.

Why would it be odd? Vegeta held back as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan so he wouldn't kill/knock Trunks out.

He could be holding back but Trunks was confident that he'd be beat Black after fighting him and he wasn't when he fought Goku. He could react to his speed aswell and Cabba couldn't.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So what does everyone think of Vegeta saying SSJ2 Trunks is almost as strong as SSJ3 Goku. Wouldn't that make Trunks stronger than Vegeta and Goku as SSJ2s???

I love it! Future Trunks is the only of the Saiyan Halflings that kept training seriously for years, and we finally see the difference between full-blooded Saiyans & Saiyan Halflings.

I think the original idea was to have Goku absorb the God Ki and be as strong as SSG or stronger in base or at least that was what they seemed to be pushing and that he'd no longer use the normal SSJ line-up. Somewhere a long the way, it got flip-flopped into the idea of Goku absorbed the "God Ki" in BoG arc after dropping out of SSG and held onto the SSG power in his normal SSJ form for a bit longer than the 30 mins. I'm guessing this was because of his will and determination to defeat Beerus, I believe it was stated somewhere (I believe by Beerus) that he held onto "the feeling" even after loosing the form. After that it was stated that he absorbed the God Ki into his own body yada yada yada. Goten asked Goku afterwards what it feels like now that he is a "God"" to even further push the idea that his base was basically SSG.

In the Movies: One could say Goku's base is on par with SSG and that he can't use the normal forms anymore.
In the anime: The idea now seems to be that Goku held onto SSG's power in SSJ during BoG for a bit longer than 30 minutes because of his will and that he absorbed the God Ki itself but he needed Whis to teach him how to bring out via SSJ (SSJB).
In the manga: Goku can go SSG at will and use all his normal forms.
You have 3 different retellings and Toei and Toriyama flip flopping everywhere with Toyotaro putting his own spin on it on top of that. It's going to be hard to find one thing that these 3 retellings agree on. Also I'd throw the FnF manga in the same category as the movie and not put it in the same continuity as the manga, it'd most likely have been a lot different if drawn for the manga and not for the promotion of the movie.

The general idea of why Goku lost access to God Ki is that when he went into normal Super Saiyan with the power of SSG, he should have been SSJB. Because he wasn't, it's chalked up to being "temporarily". Then you have Whis come along and learning he and Vegeta SSJB and all of a sudden they start mentioning God Ki a lot again. Super Saiyan can also be sensed.

No, nothing changed in the anime. No different explanation was given. The only difference is that Goku went SSG -> SS -> base in the anime, instead of SSG -> base -> SS -> base -> SSG, and even in the anime we see base Goku destroying the huge ball that was pushing back a helpless SS Goku, and he destroyed it with a freaking punch to its core. The anime makes it even more clear actually that Goku absorbed the power of SSG, since in the movie he says that he absorbed the "realm" of SSG, while in the anime he directly says that the power of SSG was fully merged with him & became his own. Vegeta even says days after the fight in the anime that Goku surpassed SSG, the level of gods. How this translates to Goku holding into some feeling for the time & then losing that hold or access or whatever, I don't understand.

It depends. In the movie Goku was able to push Beerus to 70% of his power. The anime has no such line and it's left vague at how hard Beerus fought. So the small tree and large tower makes little sense if Goku and Vegeta were already more than half way to Beerus' peak.

Beerus was surprised that Whis noticed that he wasn't using his full power against Goku, which wouldn't make any sense if Beerus was below 50%. And don't forget that this tree scene is a filler scene, so taking that into account over all those multiple points that say otherwise, especially when most of them are from Toriyama... well, that's your choice. Plus, the movies override their anime & manga adaptations, since they are written by Toriyama, just like the original manga overrides DBZ.

[buutenks]

When did vegeta say that ssj2 Trunks is stronger than ssj2 Goku?

[TheMikado]

When did vegeta say that ssj2 Trunks is stronger than ssj2 Goku?

Well specifically in the manga Vegeta says SSJ2 Trunks is almost as stronger as SSJ3 Goku which strongly implies that.

[Hugo Boss]

Even if you're right, we could just redefine the two base theory no problem lol. I don't see why we need to be so closed-minded and limit ourselves to an outdated definition. Logicians and philosophers have always redefined theories when they were outdated so why can't we?

You seem to have fallen to the strawman fallacy. I never said we need to limit ourselves to an outdated definition. After you cleared up my misunderstanding, I concluded this theory is being presented in a wrong way. "Base" means "first stage". If Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan God are transformations, they can't be the first stage. Then, you will just have to rename it, because "two-bases" confuses the people you are trying to convince.

[TheMikado]

Even if you're right, we could just redefine the two base theory no problem lol. I don't see why we need to be so closed-minded and limit ourselves to an outdated definition. Logicians and philosophers have always redefined theories when they were outdated so why can't we?

You seem to have fallen to the strawman fallacy. I never said we need to limit ourselves to an outdated definition. After you cleared up my misunderstanding, I concluded this theory is being presented in a wrong way. "Base" means "first stage". If Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan God are transformations, they can't be the first stage. Then, you will just have to rename it, because "two-bases" confuses the people you are trying to convince.

I know what you're saying but he entire premise in that in the anime the 2nd "God" base is invisible. Hence why it was called the two base theory in the first place. Because Goku looks exactly the same God Ki or or Off as base in the anime if it even exists at all.

[Hugo Boss]

That's exactly what I said earlier and you said I wasn't understanding the theory completely. So there is no transformation at all now?

I'm confused.

[LightBing]

I still haven't seen anything in the anime pointing towards this "God Base". Didn't Kuririn showing surprise that he couldn't feel Goku's ki after turning SSJB against Freeza serve as a very strong counter to it. It couldn't be more direct, Base Goku against Freeza doesn't have God Ki.

I find it very difficult to take the theory seriously when it's based on nothing.Just a justification for the clearly confusing power levels presented in Super. The only God Ki on/off mentioned is in their God Forms: SSJG and SSJB. If they told us about God Ki here, which honestly is pretty obvious, why fail to say so regarding a "form" which has no visual cues and therefore must be explained?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I still haven't seen anything in the anime pointing towards this "God Base". Didn't Kuririn showing surprise that he couldn't feel Goku's ki after turning SSJB against Freeza serve as a very strong counter to it. It couldn't be more direct, Base Goku against Freeza doesn't have God Ki.

I find it very difficult to take the theory seriously when it's based on nothing more than a excuse, for the clearly confusing power levels presented in Super. The only God Ki on/off mentioned is in their God Forms: SSJG and SSJB. If they told us about God Ki here, which honestly is pretty obvious, why fail to say so regarding a "form" which has no visual cues and therefore must be explained?

Saying that Goku absorbed & used god ki in his base & SS forms against Beerus is false. We know that SS Goku was exactly as strong as SSG, and he didn't have god ki.

And it's not really a theory, it's a officially a thing from the video-games that fixes a ton of plot-holes if it's true for the series.

[Chiki]

Even if you're right, we could just redefine the two base theory no problem lol. I don't see why we need to be so closed-minded and limit ourselves to an outdated definition. Logicians and philosophers have always redefined theories when they were outdated so why can't we?

You seem to have fallen to the strawman fallacy. I never said we need to limit ourselves to an outdated definition. After you cleared up my misunderstanding, I concluded this theory is being presented in a wrong way. "Base" means "first stage". If Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan God are transformations, they can't be the first stage. Then, you will just have to rename it, because "two-bases" confuses the people you are trying to convince.

Not directly, but your previous statements directly entailed it, since you keep repeating that the two base theory = Goku black hair theory, which is a closed-minded definition that can and should be replaced.

I don't see why "base" means first stage. Saiyan Beyond God is obviously a base yet as I showed, it's also a transformation with the same appearanc. You could just define it as a non-Super Saiyan form which makes perfect sense.