Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

So what does everyone think of Vegeta saying SSJ2 Trunks is almost as strong as SSJ3 Goku. Wouldn't that make Trunks stronger than Vegeta and Goku as SSJ2s???

I love it! Future Trunks is the only of the Saiyan Halflings that kept training seriously for years, and we finally see the difference between full-blooded Saiyans & Saiyan Halflings.

I think the original idea was to have Goku absorb the God Ki and be as strong as SSG or stronger in base or at least that was what they seemed to be pushing and that he'd no longer use the normal SSJ line-up. Somewhere a long the way, it got flip-flopped into the idea of Goku absorbed the "God Ki" in BoG arc after dropping out of SSG and held onto the SSG power in his normal SSJ form for a bit longer than the 30 mins. I'm guessing this was because of his will and determination to defeat Beerus, I believe it was stated somewhere (I believe by Beerus) that he held onto "the feeling" even after loosing the form. After that it was stated that he absorbed the God Ki into his own body yada yada yada. Goten asked Goku afterwards what it feels like now that he is a "God"" to even further push the idea that his base was basically SSG.

In the Movies: One could say Goku's base is on par with SSG and that he can't use the normal forms anymore.
In the anime: The idea now seems to be that Goku held onto SSG's power in SSJ during BoG for a bit longer than 30 minutes because of his will and that he absorbed the God Ki itself but he needed Whis to teach him how to bring out via SSJ (SSJB).
In the manga: Goku can go SSG at will and use all his normal forms.
You have 3 different retellings and Toei and Toriyama flip flopping everywhere with Toyotaro putting his own spin on it on top of that. It's going to be hard to find one thing that these 3 retellings agree on. Also I'd throw the FnF manga in the same category as the movie and not put it in the same continuity as the manga, it'd most likely have been a lot different if drawn for the manga and not for the promotion of the movie.

The general idea of why Goku lost access to God Ki is that when he went into normal Super Saiyan with the power of SSG, he should have been SSJB. Because he wasn't, it's chalked up to being "temporarily". Then you have Whis come along and learning he and Vegeta SSJB and all of a sudden they start mentioning God Ki a lot again. Super Saiyan can also be sensed.

No, nothing changed in the anime. No different explanation was given. The only difference is that Goku went SSG -> SS -> base in the anime, instead of SSG -> base -> SS -> base -> SSG, and even in the anime we see base Goku destroying the huge ball that was pushing back a helpless SS Goku, and he destroyed it with a freaking punch to its core. The anime makes it even more clear actually that Goku absorbed the power of SSG, since in the movie he says that he absorbed the "realm" of SSG, while in the anime he directly says that the power of SSG was fully merged with him & became his own. Vegeta even says days after the fight in the anime that Goku surpassed SSG, the level of gods. How this translates to Goku holding into some feeling for the time & then losing that hold or access or whatever, I don't understand.

It depends. In the movie Goku was able to push Beerus to 70% of his power. The anime has no such line and it's left vague at how hard Beerus fought. So the small tree and large tower makes little sense if Goku and Vegeta were already more than half way to Beerus' peak.

Beerus was surprised that Whis noticed that he wasn't using his full power against Goku, which wouldn't make any sense if Beerus was below 50%. And don't forget that this tree scene is a filler scene, so taking that into account over all those multiple points that say otherwise, especially when most of them are from Toriyama... well, that's your choice. Plus, the movies override their anime & manga adaptations, since they are written by Toriyama, just like the original manga overrides DBZ.

Since Super follows its own adaptation of the movie and not the actual movie, you can't the movie overrides the retellings since the anime uses the retellings.

[TheMikado]

That's exactly what I said earlier and you said I wasn't understanding the theory completely. So there is no transformation at all now?

I'm confused.

What I'm trying to say is that that is how the anime presents it. Those arguing for two bases say that there SHOULD be something to differentiate the 2nd God base like in the manga. The argument is that the power levels are royally screwed up because that differentiation never happened in the anime so the second God base just looks normal Goku all the time and is written in such a way.

This is a really discussion of what is vs what's supposed to be.

[LightBing]

I still haven't seen anything in the anime pointing towards this "God Base". Didn't Kuririn showing surprise that he couldn't feel Goku's ki after turning SSJB against Freeza serve as a very strong counter to it. It couldn't be more direct, Base Goku against Freeza doesn't have God Ki.

I find it very difficult to take the theory seriously when it's based on nothing more than a excuse, for the clearly confusing power levels presented in Super. The only God Ki on/off mentioned is in their God Forms: SSJG and SSJB. If they told us about God Ki here, which honestly is pretty obvious, why fail to say so regarding a "form" which has no visual cues and therefore must be explained?

Saying that Goku absorbed & used god ki in his base & SS forms against Beerus is false. We know that SS Goku was exactly as strong as SSG, and he didn't have god ki.

And it's not really a theory, it's a officially a thing from the video-games that fixes a ton of plot-holes if it's true for the series.

I know that against Beerus there was no God Ki whatsoever, I didn't say anything regarding that. Past that point is when this supposed theory kicks in and I don't see it.
I'm very suspicious of any material coming from any game. They have a tendency to make up names for forms and attacks. Like Unlock Potential Kuririn and Gohan, that's not a transformation at all. It's existence in a game doesn't make it significant to materials outside of it.
Yes it's official to the game, not to Super. Be it manga or anime.

It's like you said, a justification for all these plot-holes. How about we just come to terms that these plot-holes are exactly that.
When Goku used the Dragon Balls in the RR Arc, even when 12 months hadn't past yet, what do we say...; we call that a plot-hole.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Since Super follows its own adaptation of the movie and not the actual movie, you can't the movie overrides the retellings since the anime uses the retellings.

Yes, but the new arcs of Super are based on Toriyama's story drafts, which are written as continuations of the movies. The retellings are supposed to have the same basic story with the movies with e few additions & unimportant differences, which is why you don't see Goku winning the fight with Beerus & Golden Freeza not killed.

I know that against Beerus there was no God Ki whatsoever, I didn't say anything regarding that. Past that point is when this supposed theory kicks in and I don't see it.

But it doesn't start past that point, it starts at that point, at the moment that Goku absorbs the power of Super Saiyan God.

I'm very suspicious of any material coming from any game. They have a tendency to make up names for forms and attacks. Like Unlock Potential Kuririn and Gohan, that's not a transformation at all. It's existence in a game doesn't make it significant to materials outside of it.
Yes it's official to the game, not to Super. Be it manga or anime.

It's like you said, a justification for all these plot-holes. How about we just come to terms that these plot-holes are exactly that.
When Goku used the Dragon Balls in the RR Arc, even when 12 months hadn't past yet, what do we say...; we call that a plot-hole.

Well, you are free to ignore official explanations that explain a ton of supposed plot-holes.

[TheMikado]

I think it's amazing that were 5 arcs into this and have no consensus on whether he absorbed God Ki or not...

For reference this would be like not knowing how much stronger Goku was in the Buu saga from the time he trained with King Kai...

[Draconic]

So Bullza was right. Trunks did get a huge power-up. In the manga Goku sneakly turns into Super Saiyan God to defeat him (there are sparkles on his foot when he kicks Trunks in the back of the head and Beerus comments on it). Since the anime has SSJ3 Goku deal with that easily, it does seem like in the anime Goku has a much more powerful base and forms than at the end of the Buu arc, fitting with the Copy-Vegeta > Gotenks stuff, while in the manga he isn't as strong and needs to rely on God to deal with powerful opponents. Seems everything finally fell into place. Both sides were right for once

[TheMikado]

So Bullza was right. Trunks did get a huge power-up. In the manga Goku sneakly turns into Super Saiyan God to defeat him (there are sparkles on his foot when he kicks Trunks in the back of the head and Beerus comments on it). Since the anime has SSJ3 Goku deal with that easily, it does seem like in the anime Goku has a much more powerful base and forms than at the end of the Buu arc, fitting with the Copy-Vegeta > Gotenks stuff, while in the manga he isn't as strong and needs to rely on God to deal with powerful opponents. Seems everything finally fell into place. Both sides were right for once

I've been saying both sides are right because the manga and anime power levels are vastly different.

[Chiki]

So Bullza was right. Trunks did get a huge power-up. In the manga Goku sneakly turns into Super Saiyan God to defeat him (there are sparkles on his foot when he kicks Trunks in the back of the head and Beerus comments on it). Since the anime has SSJ3 Goku deal with that easily, it does seem like in the anime Goku has a much more powerful base and forms than at the end of the Buu arc, fitting with the Copy-Vegeta > Gotenks stuff, while in the manga he isn't as strong and needs to rely on God to deal with powerful opponents. Seems everything finally fell into place. Both sides were right for once

Um... Bullza thinks Trunks was post-God level. He even said so. SSG Goku is WAY more powerful than SS2 Trunks. If your definition of "right" is "completely and utterly wrong" yeah I think Bullza was right. How the heck can that be considered right?

Or maybe, you know, Trunks isn't stronger in the anime and Trunks's strength is a Toyotaro thing?

[Draconic]

So Bullza was right. Trunks did get a huge power-up. In the manga Goku sneakly turns into Super Saiyan God to defeat him (there are sparkles on his foot when he kicks Trunks in the back of the head and Beerus comments on it). Since the anime has SSJ3 Goku deal with that easily, it does seem like in the anime Goku has a much more powerful base and forms than at the end of the Buu arc, fitting with the Copy-Vegeta > Gotenks stuff, while in the manga he isn't as strong and needs to rely on God to deal with powerful opponents. Seems everything finally fell into place. Both sides were right for once

I've been saying both sides are right because the manga and anime power levels are vastly different.

The only different thing is that Goku has a buffer form between 3 and God. Everyone else can fall pretty much in the same places. Frost is destroyed in a couple of shots by SSJ Goku in the anime, while in the manga he puts up a bit of a fight, Vegeta tanks Cabba at equal levels, while again Cabba has a better performance in the manga. Magetta is giving the same amount of trouble in both version, Botamo is still a weakling and Hit is Blue level. I think it works very well and both versions are consistent within themselves. The mess only comes up when trying to compare one with the other.

EDIT: He was right in that he recieved a power up, while you kept saying he is SSJ2 Buu saga tier, which is farther from the truth. Being half wrong is better than being totally wrong, which I also was, since I didn't think he had a power-up either.

[Cipher]

Doesn't anyone else but me suspect that Goku "wasn't much weaker" in base/SS against Beerus simply because he managed to hold on to the fading Super Saiyan God power for a while longer? Not necessarily because his base form got some massive automatic upgrade to 90% of his Super Saiyan God level?

Yes, he did also absorb the god-power and "make it his own." But with what Super has shown, it really seems like he needed Whis' training to bring it out at will.

I'd be perfectly willing to go with that, but the movies and anime have doubled down several times on him being that strong well after the fight against Beerus -- most notably when he outclasses final form Freeza in base form. First-form Freeza is intimidating to the likes of Piccolo and Gohan, so that's a pretty monstrous difference between Goku and the rest of the cast.

Everything since has been more ambiguous. Even if it's a matter of Whis' training rather than simply growing stronger through experiencing Super Saiyan's God, the confusion emerges during and after the Freeza arc, as it becomes unclear how strong he is in base form, what the use of lower Super Saiyan forms mean, and where that places various opponents in terms of strength compared to characters we've seen before/even the most general tiers.

It sounds like the manga has pretty firmly outlined that in its take Goku and Vegeta are only around their Boo arc strength though? As far as I can see, that's a take that works out comfortably particularly because it skipped its adaptation of the Freeza fight.

[Chiki]

EDIT: He was right in that he recieved a power up, while you kept saying he is SSJ2 Buu saga tier, which is farther from the truth. Being half wrong is better than being totally wrong, which I also was, since I didn't think he had a power-up either.

I'm actually completely right since I've admitted that it was possible that Trunks went above SS2 Buu saga level via Zenkai boosts from fighting Black: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30781&p=1132859&hi ... i#p1132859

Maybe. I get the impression that Zenkai boosts no longer exist though.

SSG Goku OHKOed SS2 Trunks for crying out loud. Trunks is nowhere near god level, Trunks is much closer to Buu Saga level, maybe above SS3 Goku in the Buu arc who is around 8 times weaker than SS3 Gotenks. Please explain to me how that makes someone who kept insisting that Trunks is SSG level or above right.

What is at issue here is whether or not Trunks is post-God level.

Remember that Bullza kept ridiculously insisting that Trunks was post-God level and that he could beat SS3 Gotenks in Base with ease. There is no way in heck he can do either of those things.

How am I farther from the truth?

[Draconic]

To be honest, Goku just surprised Trunks and took him out. If he were prepared he might not have been one-shotted. I don't think he would've won or anything, but whatever, that's all speculation. I still think even in the manga Goku and Vegeta should be stronger than their Buu arc selves, though, on account of them training with Whis ever since RoF, but not to the extent they are in the anime.

It's good this chapter finally set things straight. There is still stuff to discuss, but at least now we know for sure where everybody stands in each version.

[Cipher]

While I don't buy for a second that Trunks is intended to be near Super Saiyan God-strength -- even if Goku is in the anime version -- because that just doesn't jive with how the series works narratively even at its most ambiguous, I have no problem with his being a particularly strong Super Saiyan 2 in either version, if that's what we're told.

For starters, we know vanilla Super Saiyan had an enormous upper limit compared to its first use. Super Saiyan Goku at the time of the Cell Games is much stronger than he was on Namek -- there's not a terribly enormous difference between that power and Gohan's initial use of Super Saiyan 2. We've also seen in each version that Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta could momentarily skyrocket into Super Saiyan 3 levels of power while maintaining the form.

We've never seen anyone in the series train consistently with Super Saiyan 2 the way Trunks must have done in his battles against Babidi and Black. It's not as problematic a form as Super Saiyan 3 seems to be. If the characters kept up with it, it seems reasonable it could start closing the gap on Super Saiyan 3-tier fighters the way the original Super Saiyan had done by the end of the Cell arc.

[Chiki]

To be honest, Goku just surprised Trunks and took him out. If he were prepared he might not have been one-shotted. I don't think he would've won or anything, but whatever, that's all speculation. I still think even in the manga Goku and Vegeta should be stronger than their Buu arc selves, though, on account of them training with Whis ever since RoF, but not to the extent they are in the anime.

It's good this chapter finally set things straight. There is still stuff to discuss, but at least now we know for sure where everybody stands in each version.

It looked to me like Trunks was just blitzed by the much faster SSG Goku and OHKOed with a simple hit to the back so that's not what I'd call a surprise.

Sure, in the manga base Goku and Vegeta are stronger than their Buu arc selves. But that's still way closer to Buu arcs levels than it is close to SSG levels.

It's still completely unclear where the characters stand in the anime and whether or not an invisible SBG exists, among other things.

[Lord Beerus]

Man, the insane power creep of the Super anime seems to have bleed into the Super manga. I mean, SSJ2 Future Trunks being able to take on SSJ3 Goku was ridiculous enough, but the fact that Goku had to resort to Super Saiyan God to knock out SSJ2 Future Trunks is fucking insane.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't get it, why do people have a problem with SS2 Future Trunks being close to SS3 Goku? He is the first Saiyan Halfling that trained seriously for over a decade after mastering Super Saiyan, and Saiyan/Earthling Halflings are supposed to have far greater potential than the full-blooded Saiyans.

[Draconic]

I don't get it, why do people have a problem with SS2 Future Trunks being close to SS3 Goku? He is the first Saiyan Halfling that trained seriously for over a decade after mastering Super Saiyan, and Saiyan/Earthling Halflings are supposed to have far greater potential than the full-blooded Saiyans.

Plus he faught against Black and we know from Toriyama himself that Saiyans get stronger the longer they fight. It would be more weird if he didn't get a power up.

[Kaboom]

I think assuming that Goku needed Super Saiyan God to beat SS2 Trunks is probably jumping to some pretty overblown conclusions. Based on Beerus and Whis calling it childish, it seems to me like maybe Goku was just showing off.

[Chiki]

I think assuming that Goku needed Super Saiyan God to beat SS2 Trunks is probably jumping to some pretty overblown conclusions. Based on Beerus and Whis calling it childish, it seems to me like maybe Goku was just showing off.

You're forgetting the drawbacks of SS3. SS3 Goku might have lost to Trunks even if he was stronger than Trunks since the form drains a lot of stamina quickly. It's really the most useless form in the entire series and no one using SS3 has ever won a fight. Transforming to SSG, his next strongest form, might've been necessary as a result.

I also think it's weird that SS2 Trunks is that strong since, even if he's a prodigy, Goku and Vegeta did train with Whis in their base forms in the manga.

One explanation could be that Trunks is the only one with a full-power SS2 (like the full-power SS of the Cell arc) which is why he is close/stronger than SS3 level.

[Bullza]

Um... Bullza thinks Trunks was post-God level. He even said so. SSG Goku is WAY more powerful than SS2 Trunks. If your definition of "right" is "completely and utterly wrong" yeah I think Bullza was right. How the heck can that be considered right?

Aren't you just referring to the manga there? I was talking about the anime obviously, how could I have been talking about Trunks strenght in the manga when the chapter only just came out?

****

So anyway let me get this right. In the manga SSJ2 Trunks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku but he isn't as strong as SSJG Goku?

But then in the anime he's weaker than SSJ3 Goku but this is in a continuity where SSJ Goku is definitely as strong or stronger now than SSJG Goku was back in the Battle of Gods saga which does not appear to be the case in the manga?

Is that right?