"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Alruneia]

Trunks has no idea about SS3, but says he wasn't happy with SS2 either. He powers up to be on par with SS3 Goku...while in SS2.

Wait... what? He just powers up and quadruples his strength? Was he holding back against Goku (making them both hold back, apparently), or did he discover some kind of FPSSJ2? If it's the latter, that'd actually make perfect sense to me. We did get that one interview where SSJ1 was supposed to be able to be mastered to a point where SSJ2 and SSJ3 would become redundant, since FPSSJ would be just as powerful. An FPSSJ2 should absolutely be able to compete with an SSJ3 in that case.

Whis chuckles again. "The Kaioshin and Hakaishin come as a set. If the Kaioshin die, so does the Hakaishin. It's that kind of relationship. The Hakaishin of Trunks' world likely no longer exists."

...Old Kai. That is all.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

We did get that one interview where SSJ1 was supposed to be able to be mastered to a point where SSJ2 and SSJ3 would become redundant, since FPSSJ would be just as powerful.

No, we didn't. That's not what was said.

[Patrolman Jaco]

Trunks is STRONG, but isn't a match for Black. Goku expected to beat him easily, but thinks this might actually be dangerous now. Goku asks if Beerus & Whis want to come with them to the future, to help out if they end up in a pinch.

Glad to see that Toyotaro hasn't flanderized Goku to the extent that Toei has, really interested in Goku encounter with Zamasu in the manga now.

[Sandubadear]

Besides completely fucking up everything we know about strength, this chapter was ok.

[Alruneia]

We did get that one interview where SSJ1 was supposed to be able to be mastered to a point where SSJ2 and SSJ3 would become redundant, since FPSSJ would be just as powerful.

No, we didn't. That's not what was said.

Wasn't it? I thought that was what the point was. Enlighten me, then.

Edit:
From this interview:

Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?!
Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

That's why I said what I did.

[Beerus-sama]

I love how Future Trunks SSJ2 is drawn in the manga SO MUCH BETTER than the anime
also, loved These:

Trunks is STRONG, but isn't a match for Black. Goku expected to beat him easily, but thinks this might actually be dangerous now. Goku asks if Beerus & Whis want to come with them to the future, to help out if they end up in a pinch. Beerus wants nothing to do with it. He doesn't care about another Earth, and using the time machine is a crime anyway. However, he does wonder why the Hakaishin left Black alone though. Whis doesn't think Beerus and Black are that different in terms of destruction. This pisses Beerus off. Beerus feels Black is destroying whatever he wants without considering the balance of the universe. Whis chuckles

Trunks still has no idea what a Hakaishin is, despite asking who Beerus and Whis were earlier. Beerus wonders if Trunks' Hakaishin is still asleep. Whis assumes differently and asks what happened to Kaioshin after defeating Dabra. Trunks reveals the god perished in the fight. Beerus panics. Why did that weakling Kaioshin get involved?! Goku wonders what's wrong. Does Beerus have an unexpected soft spot for the Kaioshin? Whis chuckles again. "The Kaioshin and Hakaishin come as a set. If the Kaioshin die, so does the Hakaishin. It's that kind of relationship. The Hakaishin of Trunks' world likely no longer exists."

And the previous big reveal as well sounds interesting
Thanks TheDevilsCorpse

[ArchedThunder]

Goku and Trunks transform to SS2 for their spar. Whis thinks Trunks has the edge on Goku as the fight unfolds. Goku is impressed Trunks is better than Gohan from "that time" (presumably Cell Games). Trunks says he trained hard for the last 10+ years, but is excited when Goku vows to show him what comes next. Trunks has no idea about SS3, but says he wasn't happy with SS2 either. He powers up to be on par with SS3 Goku...while in SS2. So I guess all of Trunks' forms are ~4x stronger than everyone else?

You can't see it, but when Goku kicks Trunks in the back of the neck and knocks him out...notice the sparkles. Goku went Super Saiyan God. Beerus and Whis call him out on being immature for that.

I really, REALLY dislike how strong Trunks is in the manga.

[kinisking]

Maybe trunks is a Mystic that found out a way to make use of super saiyan? Still would be weaker than goku is now, unless Mystic also allows bigger gains from training.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku and Trunks transform to SS2 for their spar. Whis thinks Trunks has the edge on Goku as the fight unfolds. Goku is impressed Trunks is better than Gohan from "that time" (presumably Cell Games). Trunks says he trained hard for the last 10+ years, but is excited when Goku vows to show him what comes next. Trunks has no idea about SS3, but says he wasn't happy with SS2 either. He powers up to be on par with SS3 Goku...while in SS2. So I guess all of Trunks' forms are ~4x stronger than everyone else?

You can't see it, but when Goku kicks Trunks in the back of the neck and knocks him out...notice the sparkles. Goku went Super Saiyan God. Beerus and Whis call him out on being immature for that.

I really, REALLY dislike how strong Trunks is in the manga.

I hate how absurdly strong Future Trunks has gotten, too. I mean, 10+ years of training will certainly yield great results, but for Goku to have use Super Saiyan God to defeat him? And before that, being on par with SSJ3 Goku as a SSJ2? This is the sort of power creep that has made power scaling in the Super anime a mess. Lets just hope this is the most extreme example the manga provides.

[ArchedThunder]

I hate how absurdly strong Future Trunks has gotten, too. I mean, 10+ years of training will certainly yield great results, but for Goku to have use Super Saiyan God to defeat him? And before that, being on par with SSJ3 Goku as a SSJ2? This is the sort of power creep that has made power scaling in the Super anime a mess. Lets just hope this is the most extreme example the manga provides.

On top of that this is a post God, post Whis training Goku. SSJ2 Trunks shouldn't be a match for Goku in any form. At least in the anime when they were both SSJ2 Trunks wasn't actually able to do anything to Goku.
Trunks being able to just power SSJ2 up to SSJ3 power is also beyond stupid.

[ssj_duelist]

Super makes GT look like Shakespear.

[LightBing]

Okay, here's all the shit from this chapter.

Thank you! Like always.

Another reason to throw away the idea of fixed multipliers! Which was never in the original manga by the way.
I didn't catch the sparkles, that was pretty lame of Goku. I wonder if Trunks superiority is in function of his relentless training and fight with Babidi and Dabra, his potential as a hybrid, his constant fights with Goku Black or a combination of everything.

Contrary to a lot of people, I have no problem with it. It's like someone said before compare SSJ Goku in Namek and SSJ Goku at the Cell Games, day and night. People usually rationalize the Saiyan transformations as levels(I do the same often), like SSJ2 tier. That is by definition a wrong way to process it, the problem is that so far, the characters have been fairly close in similar transformations.

I guess the missing pages still haven't appeared. We're still left with some questions regarding this "God Link". Where 's Old Kai at in the future?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I guess the missing pages still haven't appeared. We're still left with some questions regarding this "God Link". Where 's Old Kai at in the future?

I'm actually going to amend this to my post now, but I don't think there are any missing pages. The chapter runs from page 33 to 71, and all 39 pages were uploaded and accounted for. Unless there was a special chapter included in the magazine as well, I get the feeling the text about Whis and Beerus during Boo's rampage was fake...

[Cipher]

I legit love that Gokus is mostly kind-hearted and concerned about helping Trunks, but still petulant enough to sneakily use Super Saiyan God to win the sparring match, and get called out on it.

I said this in another thread, but Super Saiyan 2's limits were never explored the same way the original Super Saiyan's were -- and that form showed a huge upper boundary of power between Namek and the Cell Games. Given that 2 is a more "stable" form than 3, I don't have a problem with Trunks getting it into that realm of power after ten years of training and harsh battles, especially if he focuses on that transformation as Goku and Gohan did with Super Saiyan.

[Lord Beerus]

Super makes GT look like Shakespear.

I don't know who this Shakespear guy is, but I'd recommend the works of William Shakespeare. That guy has written some good stories, I hear.

[kinisking]

The manga fights are so fucking good. This might sound like a travesty but toyotorou might be better than Toriyama at choreography.

Toyotorou is not anywhere even close to prime Toriyama.

Just looks at fights such as Goku vs Vegeta in the saiyan saga and Vegeta vs Recoome. The chereography in those fights far outstrips Toyotorou's

Also In Toyo's fights most of the attacks feel weak and lack impact.

Compare Toriyama to Toyotorou

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

The difference is vast, Dragon Ball became such a phenomenon because Toriyama was an amazing artist especially when it came to fight scenes while Toyo ranges from mediocre to just good.

That doesn't really prove anything. They're just singular hits. Doesn't really give me a feel for choreography. I'll admit Toriyamas impacts seem stronger but I still think Trunks bouncing off the sword is more impressive than any of thr Toriyama things you pointed out.

[dbzfan7]

So I'm mixed on the whole Trunks thing. On the one hand, he is a half breed, so him being explosively strong makes sense. On the other, Goku and Vegeta have been training under Beerus and Whis, and I find it hard to believe Trunks earth training could somehow keep him above them form by form. At least unlike Freeza, Trunks has had far more time for this growth, so he gets more leeway from me. But, another thing is in his original debut to his send off, he never really had anything like this. He remained about on par or weaker arguably than Vegeta. Still I buy this a hell of a lot more than I buy Freeza and Tagoma.

Toyotaro at least covers the hair color thing instead of BSing it. Thank you Toyotaro for doing it the right way.

Lastly Kaiserneko's OTP of Karin and Yajirobe with twister must be kinky

[Chiki]

Besides completely fucking up everything we know about strength, this chapter was ok.

Let's not overreact here (I'm not replying to you in particular, but everyone who thinks that the power levels in the manga are a mess).

This is a weird development but it can be explained and the power levels still can make sense in the manga.

1. We don't know how strong SS2 Trunks is exactly. Below SS3 Goku? SS3 Goku level? Above SS3 Goku? All we know is that Goku went to SSG to OHKO him. We don't know if it was because he needed to, or if it was because of SS3's stamina issues, or if it was to show off.
2. Trunks is a half-breed unlike Goku and Vegeta so he has more potential as confirmed by Toriyama.
3. Trunks fought Black for a year potentially getting some Zenkai boosts.
4. Trunks spent a lot of time in SS2 unlike Goku and Vegeta, potentially mastering it to a level Goku and Vegeta never did.

The only weird bit is that Goku and Vegeta got training from Whis, in Base, that Trunks didn't.

So yeah, unlike the anime, Trunks's power can be reasonably explained.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

We did get that one interview where SSJ1 was supposed to be able to be mastered to a point where SSJ2 and SSJ3 would become redundant, since FPSSJ would be just as powerful.

No, we didn't. That's not what was said.

Wasn't it? I thought that was what the point was. Enlighten me, then.

Edit:
From this interview:

Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?!
Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

That's why I said what I did.

What Toriyama says is that Goku would raise his base power more if he focuses on base & SS. Like back in Cell arc, Goku focused on mastering SS, and he got a tremendous increase in his base, making him stronger than SSG3 Trunks at 50% of his full power in his regular SS form. But that didn't make SSG2 & SSG3 useless, Goku would still get even stronger if he used them against Cell.

It is worth noting that Toriyama said this after BoG & before FnF and Super. At that point, Goku had absorbed the power of SSG in his base form, making him a little weaker than SSG, and his SS form was exactly as strong as SSG, meaning that in that state the SS forms didn't give the same big increases as before (base was slightly weaker than SS, not x50). So, while the ki drain of SS2 & SS3 was a small issue when the forms gave x2 & x4 increases respectively, but when they give a less than x2 increase, it becomes a problem.

Goku and Trunks transform to SS2 for their spar. Whis thinks Trunks has the edge on Goku as the fight unfolds. Goku is impressed Trunks is better than Gohan from "that time" (presumably Cell Games). Trunks says he trained hard for the last 10+ years, but is excited when Goku vows to show him what comes next. Trunks has no idea about SS3, but says he wasn't happy with SS2 either. He powers up to be on par with SS3 Goku...while in SS2. So I guess all of Trunks' forms are ~4x stronger than everyone else?

You can't see it, but when Goku kicks Trunks in the back of the neck and knocks him out...notice the sparkles. Goku went Super Saiyan God. Beerus and Whis call him out on being immature for that.

I really, REALLY dislike how strong Trunks is in the manga.

I hate how absurdly strong Future Trunks has gotten, too. I mean, 10+ years of training will certainly yield great results, but for Goku to have use Super Saiyan God to defeat him? And before that, being on par with SSJ3 Goku as a SSJ2? This is the sort of power creep that has made power scaling in the Super anime a mess. Lets just hope this is the most extreme example the manga provides.

What did you expect him to use, Super Saiyan 4? Trunks was almost as strong as SS3 Goku, not SSG Goku. He used the form to one-shot him, and that was the next form after SS3.

[ArchedThunder]

I really, REALLY dislike how strong Trunks is in the manga.

I hate how absurdly strong Future Trunks has gotten, too. I mean, 10+ years of training will certainly yield great results, but for Goku to have use Super Saiyan God to defeat him? And before that, being on par with SSJ3 Goku as a SSJ2? This is the sort of power creep that has made power scaling in the Super anime a mess. Lets just hope this is the most extreme example the manga provides.

What did you expect him to use, Super Saiyan 4? Trunks was almost as strong as SS3 Goku, not SSG Goku. He used the form to one-shot him, and that was the next form after SS3.

The point is that Trunks shouldn't even be anywhere near as strong as Goku in any form.