Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Xeztin]

I think SSJ2 Trunks being on-par/stronger than SSJ3 Goku is because of a hybrid thing? It seems Trunks has reached his max by normal means, until he gets a new transformation or Blue of course.

[TheMikado]

The reasons for the change, lack of the RoF might have helped Toyotarõ not to mess up. While in the anime they didn't modify it and actually continued with that idea in the Copy-Vegeta mini-arc.

Yep; way with you on this. I edited my post above to hypothesize a bit more. I think somewhere along the line the approach changed (most likely as Toei realized it was a better one for a visual ongoing story), but not everyone got the memo (if there was even a memo to be gotten). Toyotarou lucked into not adapting the material that implied the first approach, and had the wherewithal as a personal fan, and sole author, to more consistently introduce the latter.

Pretty much this, the characters are literally written at two different levels in the anime, this seems like a major failure of production.

[TheMikado]

I'm dying laughing right now because it looks like a bunch of the one basers from here are gathered on other forums trashing the manga and Toyotaro right now!!! Lol just take the L gracefully rather than ragging on someone 100x more talented than all of us, sheesh.

What makes this even more hilarious is that they are talking about how Toyotaro is going against Toriyama and that he wouldn't approve and this is why you don't let fanfic people do official works... Geez.

From what we are told the manga is the only thing Toriyama is personally approving so if anything it's closer to his new version the movies or the anime.

[LightBing]

I really don't see how they are going to quietly switch power levels in the Anime as nothing is going to make sense. Base Goku being SSG level then suddenly trash tier while looking the same with no explanation isn't going to work.

It's already a mess as it is. They might just be expecting for us to adapt to the new normal.

Yep; way with you on this. I edited my post above to hypothesize a bit more. I think somewhere along the line the approach changed (most likely as Toei realized it was a better one for a visual ongoing story), but not everyone got the memo (if there was even a memo to be gotten). Toyotarou lucked into not adapting the material that implied the first approach, and had the wherewithal as a personal fan, and sole author, to more consistently introduce the latter.

I wouldn't be surprised if Toei didn't have the final outline for the Tournament Arc until mid RoF arc. I remember very clearly a sudden change of pace, at first they were adding new material (Ginyu, Gotenks appearing), then they just carbon copied the movie, in those infamous low quality episodes.

I would love to be a fly in one of the writers meetings. Stuff like adding the Beerus 10% line and removing the 70% line of the BoG movie, seems unnatural. It must be close to anarchy. Which then creates plot-holes(Blue Kaioken being weaker than Beerus).

[Bullza]

Isn't Toyotaro supposed to be involved with Toriyama in some way though?

Super Saiyan Goku appeared in chapter 9 and Super Saiyan God Goku appears in chapter 13. That's 4 months for Toyotaro to make sure. He could have still easily have made it fit with the movies, a simple comment to one of the characters that after fighting Beerus he found out he'd absorbed that power would have made everything fit neatly.

[HeroR]

I really don't see how they are going to quietly switch power levels in the Anime as nothing is going to make sense. Base Goku being SSG level then suddenly trash tier while looking the same with no explanation isn't going to work.

It's already a mess as it is. They might just be expecting for us to adapt to the new normal.

Yep; way with you on this. I edited my post above to hypothesize a bit more. I think somewhere along the line the approach changed (most likely as Toei realized it was a better one for a visual ongoing story), but not everyone got the memo (if there was even a memo to be gotten). Toyotarou lucked into not adapting the material that implied the first approach, and had the wherewithal as a personal fan, and sole author, to more consistently introduce the latter.

I wouldn't be surprised if Toei didn't have the final outline for the Tournament Arc until mid RoF arc. I remember very clearly a sudden change of pace, at first they were adding new material (Ginyu, Gotenks appearing), then they just carbon copied the movie, in those infamous low quality episodes.

I would love to be a fly in one of the writers meetings. Stuff like adding the Beerus 10% line and removing the 70% line of the BoG movie, seems unnatural. It must be close to anarchy. Which then creates plot-holes(Blue Kaioken being weaker than Beerus).

But it's not a plot hole in the anime. They have remainder consistence that Super Saiyan God <= Goku's base form. If they suddenly changed their minds in the middle of the tournament, it wouldn't make sense for them to show that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks < Vegeta's base form. Only the manga has Super Saiyan God returns and heavily implied that Goku didn't absorbed godhood.

I am also not sure why everyone assumed the manga is more right on this, especially when Toriyama told Toyotaro in an interview that he can give his own twists.

[Cipher]

I'm dying laughing right now because it looks like a bunch of the one basers from here are gathered on other forums trashing the manga and Toyotaro right now!!! Lol just take the L gracefully rather than ragging on someone 100x more talented than all of us, sheesh.

I mean, technically it is one base, but that one base moving forward is probably going to be the one we've had since the Android arc. I guess there were indeed "two bases," but out of poor planning rather than intent.

I suspect one of the following scenarios took place at some point during production.

1) Toriyama just doesn't realize what the movies and Freeza fight lay out, writes Super Saiyan into the next arc and assumes there hasn't been a huge increase. Toyotarou takes a hard approach while the anime remains inconsistent.

2) Toei: "Can we please get Goku back to normal power so we can use Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3 again and have them not beat every opponent in their normal forms? We guarantee kids won't care."

Toriyama: "Sure idgaf."

Toei adapts this approach inconsistently between different writers, either settles into approach during "F" adaptation of simply can't dedicate the resources to wildly changing it for the few fans who will notice. Toyotarou is able to implement the approach consistently as a single author, reintroducing God as an accessible form and adding some relative power statements in this chapter to clarify. (I find this more likely, as Toei pushing for the inclusion of the previous forms makes sense, but not fully settling on what that means for relative power until this arc, or dedicating someone to supervise consistency in that regard make sense as well.)

It seems they've all ended up at the same place though, if bits like copy-Vegeta and Gotenks are simply miscommunication in "filler" scripts. I guess we'll see where things go.

But this would mean Zamasu really is just around previous Super Saiyan 2 levels, Goku really is being earnest as a Super Saiyan 2 against Trunks, Frost is maybe Cell level (stronger than Piccolo but not in such a different realm) Cabba is just a stronger-than-average Saiyan that can get Vegeta to fight sincerely in base, etc. Everything makes so much more sense if this has been the intent since planning for Universe 6, just executed with limited oversight.

This is why, unless we get another major deviation from the anime, this makes more sense to me, and would seem to apply to both versions. It's a lot more likely on a meta level.

I really do think, unless we see them double down on the earlier approach, that Toei is assuming a "new normal." We have to remember that their target audience doesn't follow the story nearly as closely as we do, and keeping the characters at their previous strength outside of Blue allows them to show off a lot more forms and keep flexible. It's already the cleanest way to make sense out of even the anime's portrayal of the Trunks arc.

Which, up until this manga chapter, most would have called the "two base theory," but I think the faaaar better explanation is that someone changed their mind, and Toyotarou lucked into or planned for greater consistency in implementing that approach. Now that we have such a clear deviation and statement of intent from the manga, things are lining up for me in a way that "they planned for two different bases but have never mentioned it" never did. At the same time, a meta explanation covers all of the anime's wonkiness.

[Chiki]

I mean, technically it is one base,

How?

Also what other forums are there? I'd like to see this trashing.

[HeroR]

I'm dying laughing right now because it looks like a bunch of the one basers from here are gathered on other forums trashing the manga and Toyotaro right now!!! Lol just take the L gracefully rather than ragging on someone 100x more talented than all of us, sheesh.

I mean, technically it is one base, but that one base moving forward is probably going to be the one we've had since the Android arc. I guess there were indeed "two bases," but out of poor planning rather than intent.

I suspect one of the following scenarios took place at some point during production.

1) Toriyama just doesn't realize what the movies and Freeza fight lay out, writes Super Saiyan into the next arc and assumes there hasn't been a huge increase. Toyotarou takes a hard approach while the anime remains inconsistent.

2) Toei: "Can we please get Goku back to normal power so we can use Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3 again and have them not beat every opponent in their normal forms? We guarantee kids won't care."

Toriyama: "Sure idgaf."

Toei adapts this approach inconsistently between different writers, either settles into approach during "F" adaptation of simply can't dedicate the resources to wildly changing it for the few fans who will notice. Toyotarou is able to implement the approach consistently as a single author, reintroducing God as an accessible form and adding some relative power statements in this chapter to clarify. (I find this more likely, as Toei pushing for the inclusion of the previous forms makes sense, but not fully settling on what that means for relative power until this arc, or dedicating someone to supervise consistency in that regard make sense as well.)

It seems they've all ended up at the same place though, if bits like copy-Vegeta and Gotenks are simply miscommunication in "filler" scripts. I guess we'll see where things go.

But this would mean Zamasu really is just around previous Super Saiyan 2 levels, Goku really is being earnest as a Super Saiyan 2 against Trunks, Frost is maybe Cell level (stronger than Piccolo but not in such a different realm) Cabba is just a stronger-than-average Saiyan that can get Vegeta to fight sincerely in base, etc. Everything makes so much more sense if this has been the intent since planning for Universe 6, just executed with limited oversight.

This is why, unless we get another major deviation from the anime, this makes more sense to me, and would seem to apply to both versions. It's a lot more likely on a meta level.

Not likely. Toriyama said that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore and Goku will work to improve his base and Super Saiyan form. He also wrote Resurrection 'F' just months before Super started, so he already had the Champa Saga in his mind. So he would remembered that Goku's base form > newly revived Frieza's true form, who kills Gohan in his weakest form. So the assumption that Toei messed up when it's most likely that Toyotaro is doing his own thing because Toriyama gave him permission is just weird. Especially since the anime and manga were similar up to the Hit vs. Goku fight.

[TheMikado]

am also not sure why everyone assumed the manga is more right on this, especially when Toriyama told Toyotaro in an interview that he can give his own twists

^ HeroR .because it was said somewhere (in that same Interview that you're referencing I believe) that Toriyama personally reviews each manga release of Toyotaros and makes corrections/suggestions to things he doesn't like or wants to change. The anime has this supposed outline which as we can clearly see must be vague enough to to hav vastly different interpretations. From the active ongoing relationship that occurs with Toyotaro and Toriyama we assume that his version of the events is closer to the ongoing, consistent story TORIYAMA wants to tell NOW.

I know you are your buddies don't like the direction it went but ragging on the artist and manga when it seems to be closer to the artists vision isn't the way to go.

[Cipher]

I mean, technically it is one base,

How?

Also what other forums are there? I'd like to see this trashing.

I'm assuming that moving forward, the approach is going to be that their bases aren't radically different from their Boo arc levels, and that they haven't been intended to be for a while, inconsistency with the movies and Freeza arc (and some filler) be damned (in the production team's mind).

So, yes, there are two different levels of power between the movies/adaptation arcs and the newer material, but I think that's an artifact of changing approaches rather than an intentional story element the way many here were suspecting.

[TheMikado]

I mean, technically it is one base,

How?

Also what other forums are there? I'd like to see this trashing.

Id rather not call out those people in here as they use the same names in both forums.

[Bullza]

Toriyama just doesn't realize what the movies and Freeza fight lay out, writes Super Saiyan into the next arc and assumes there hasn't been a huge increase.

Toriyama did say something about Goku getting stronger by increasing his Base and Super Saiyan strenght in one of the Battle of Gods interviews.

Not sure which one exactly though but it would mean that even after he absorbed the power of a God he could still go Super Saiyan and was stronger than his Base. So it's not like Toriyama messed up by including Super Saiyan into the tournament like a lot of people thought.

[TheMikado]

I'm dying laughing right now because it looks like a bunch of the one basers from here are gathered on other forums trashing the manga and Toyotaro right now!!! Lol just take the L gracefully rather than ragging on someone 100x more talented than all of us, sheesh.

I mean, technically it is one base, but that one base moving forward is probably going to be the one we've had since the Android arc. I guess there were indeed "two bases," but out of poor planning rather than intent.

I suspect one of the following scenarios took place at some point during production.

1) Toriyama just doesn't realize what the movies and Freeza fight lay out, writes Super Saiyan into the next arc and assumes there hasn't been a huge increase. Toyotarou takes a hard approach while the anime remains inconsistent.

2) Toei: "Can we please get Goku back to normal power so we can use Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3 again and have them not beat every opponent in their normal forms? We guarantee kids won't care."

Toriyama: "Sure idgaf."

Toei adapts this approach inconsistently between different writers, either settles into approach during "F" adaptation of simply can't dedicate the resources to wildly changing it for the few fans who will notice. Toyotarou is able to implement the approach consistently as a single author, reintroducing God as an accessible form and adding some relative power statements in this chapter to clarify. (I find this more likely, as Toei pushing for the inclusion of the previous forms makes sense, but not fully settling on what that means for relative power until this arc, or dedicating someone to supervise consistency in that regard make sense as well.)

It seems they've all ended up at the same place though, if bits like copy-Vegeta and Gotenks are simply miscommunication in "filler" scripts. I guess we'll see where things go.

But this would mean Zamasu really is just around previous Super Saiyan 2 levels, Goku really is being earnest as a Super Saiyan 2 against Trunks, Frost is maybe Cell level (stronger than Piccolo but not in such a different realm) Cabba is just a stronger-than-average Saiyan that can get Vegeta to fight sincerely in base, etc. Everything makes so much more sense if this has been the intent since planning for Universe 6, just executed with limited oversight.

This is why, unless we get another major deviation from the anime, this makes more sense to me, and would seem to apply to both versions. It's a lot more likely on a meta level.

Not likely. Toriyama said that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore and Goku will work to improve his base and Super Saiyan form. He also wrote Resurrection 'F' just months before Super started, so he already had the Champa Saga in his mind. So he would remembered that Goku's base form > newly revived Frieza's true form, who kills Gohan in his weakest form. So the assumption that Toei messed up when it's most likely that Toyotaro is doing his own thing because Toriyama gave him permission is just weird. Especially since the anime and manga were similar up to the Hit vs. Goku fight.

A more likely scenario to all this is that both movies were written as one time stand alone movies with no intention of being serialized. When Toriyama wrote the outline for the series he reconted a lot of the power level percentage and absorption to prevent power inflation. Toei either didn't get the memo or didn't care.

I mean they didn't even follow the whole 6-10-15 scale so why would he locked down to anything else from the movies?

[Cipher]

Toriyama did say something about Goku getting stronger by increasing his Base and Super Saiyan strenght in one of the Battle of Gods interviews.

Not sure which one exactly though but it would mean that even after he absorbed the power of a God he could still go Super Saiyan and was stronger than his Base. So it's not like Toriyama messed up by including Super Saiyan into the tournament like a lot of people thought.

The question isn't whether Goku could've gotten stronger in base, but whether there was ever supposed to be such a huge increase that he could take on final-form Freeza when no one else could touch first, be stronger than previous Boo-level characters, etc.

So I'm hypothesizing that either Toriyama didn't realize how great an increase he'd written into the movies when it came to the Universe 6 arc, or -- more likely, in my mind -- in planning with Toei, they wound up reducing characters to roughly their "normal" levels, but there was never any kind of oversight with this approach, nor tweaking of the adaptations, because they either didn't have or didn't figure it was worth the time. It would've been kind of a guideline for plotting arcs moving forward, but never written into any kind of show bible for illustrating relative strength. Because who cares about that, except Toyotarou, who does.

EDIT -- Or, the above scenario, with Toriyama simply changing his mind between the stand-alone movies and a serialized story works too (kind of a combination of both my scenarios). Either way, Toei didn't have anyone supervising the consistency of this approach, nor potentially to even point out that it was a change in the first place, while Toyotarou could, and happened to not even need to adapt the most contradictory movie material.

[HeroR]

A more likely scenario to all this is that both movies were written as one time stand alone movies with no intention of being serialized. When Toriyama wrote the outline for the series he reconted a lot of the power level percentage and absorption to prevent power inflation. Toei either didn't get the memo or didn't care.

I mean they didn't even follow the whole 6-10-15 scale so why would he locked down to anything else from the movies?

That may have been true for Battle of Gods, but why would Toriyama recount his own information for a movie he wrote himself just a year ago? Especially when the movie he wrote stood true to the information from the last movie he rewrote? It doesn't make sense for Toriyama to throw that away and just assumed Toei screw-up because of a manga made by someone Toriyama gave free reign to.

And the 6, 10, 15 were more or less throw away numbers that Toriyama made to show how much ahead Beerus and especially Whis was from everyone. I doubt it was meant to be taken seriously, especially after Toriyama decided to make more movies, and keep Goku and Vegeta weaker than Beerus.

The question isn't whether Goku could've gotten stronger in base, but whether there was ever supposed to be such a huge increase that he could take on final-form Freeza when no one else could touch first, be stronger than previous Boo-level characters, etc.

So I'm hypothesizing that either Toriyama didn't realize how great an increase he'd written into the movies when it came to the Universe 6 arc, or -- more likely, in my mind -- in planning with Toei, they wound up reducing characters to roughly their "normal" levels, but there was never any kind of oversight with this approach, nor tweaking of the adaptations, because they either didn't have or didn't figure it was worth the time. It would've been kind of a guideline for plotting arcs moving forward, but never written into any kind of show bible for illustrating relative strength. Because who cares about that, except Toyotarou, who does.

EDIT -- Or, as proposed above, Toriyama simply changing his mind between the stand-alone movies and a serialized story works too (kind of a combination of both my scenarios). Either way, Toei didn't have anyone supervising the consistency of this approach, while Toyotarou could, and happened to not even need to adapt the most contradictory movie material.

Again, why would Toriyama change his mind when he clearly wrote in his own script that base form Goku is stronger than a stronger than ever true form Freeza. Why is it automatically assumed that Toyotarou is the one right on the power scaling?

[TheMikado]

A more likely scenario to all this is that both movies were written as one time stand alone movies with no intention of being serialized. When Toriyama wrote the outline for the series he reconted a lot of the power level percentage and absorption to prevent power inflation. Toei either didn't get the memo or didn't care.

I mean they didn't even follow the whole 6-10-15 scale so why would he locked down to anything else from the movies?

That may have been true for Battle of Gods, but why would Toriyama recount his own information for a movie he wrote himself just a year ago? Especially when the movie he wrote stood true to the information from the last movie he rewrote? It doesn't make sense for Toriyama to throw that away and just assumed Toei screw-up because of a manga made by someone Toriyama gave free reign to.

And the 6, 10, 15 were more or less throw away numbers that Toriyama made to show how much ahead Beerus and especially Whis was from everyone. I doubt it was meant to be taken seriously, especially after Toriyama decided to make more movies, and keep Goku and Vegeta weaker than Beerus.

The question isn't whether Goku could've gotten stronger in base, but whether there was ever supposed to be such a huge increase that he could take on final-form Freeza when no one else could touch first, be stronger than previous Boo-level characters, etc.

So I'm hypothesizing that either Toriyama didn't realize how great an increase he'd written into the movies when it came to the Universe 6 arc, or -- more likely, in my mind -- in planning with Toei, they wound up reducing characters to roughly their "normal" levels, but there was never any kind of oversight with this approach, nor tweaking of the adaptations, because they either didn't have or didn't figure it was worth the time. It would've been kind of a guideline for plotting arcs moving forward, but never written into any kind of show bible for illustrating relative strength. Because who cares about that, except Toyotarou, who does.

EDIT -- Or, as proposed above, Toriyama simply changing his mind between the stand-alone movies and a serialized story works too (kind of a combination of both my scenarios). Either way, Toei didn't have anyone supervising the consistency of this approach, while Toyotarou could, and happened to not even need to adapt the most contradictory movie material.

Again, why would Toriyama change his mind when he clearly wrote in his own script that base form Goku is stronger than a stronger than ever true form Freeza. Why is it automatically assumed that Toyotarou is the one right on the power scaling?

But that's kind of the point I'm making. The 70% Beerus stood true until he realized he was making the RoF movie where he changed it, the Ki absorption stood true until he realized he needed to serialize it and he changed it. It's just that simple. A new unexpected media pops up and he changed his story from what it was previously to allow it to continue, it really just that simple. The only think that should be considered accurate in terms of the story Toriyama wants to tell NOW in 2016 are the LATEST version which would would be the manga as the Anime would be in pre production months before airing.

[Cipher]

Again, why would Toriyama change his mind when he clearly wrote in his own script that base form Goku is stronger than a stronger than ever true form Freeza. Why is it automatically assumed that Toyotarou is the one right on the power scaling?

Because it's not just Toyotarou. The anime also seems to have been written this way since the Universe 6 arc, especially as of the last few episodes, with the sole exception of the Copy Vegeta-Gotenks "filler" fight.

While there are ways of making everything in the anime line up with the first two arcs/movies -- and I've argued some of them here, because I still find them less ridiculous than an intentional, unstated "two-base" mechanic -- they've become increasingly slipshod and require either massive, unstated increases, or characters barely trying, despite transforming (and even then, the Trunks arc stuff barely lines up). Everything suddenly clicks right into place if you assume there was a badly implemented change that Toyotarou managed to avoid.

[TheMikado]

^ personally I suspect that leaving out the RoF arc wasn't a coincidence. I think as Toriyama began work on the Super manga with Toyotaro he realized the RoF arc didn't fit well for the serialized story and decided to skip it entirely which also conviniently allowed them to catch up too.

[Bullza]

The anime also seems to have been written this way since the Universe 6 arc, especially as of the last few episodes, with the sole exception of the Copy Vegeta-Gotenks "filler" fight.

The Goku vs Monaka fight too, I know Beerus was hampered by the costume but that shouldn't excuse him still taking a punching to the face and still continue fighting.

Also arguably the weighted suits which they did 50,000 one finger push ups in which was supposed to put more pressure on the body than the Gravity Machine which Vegeta used to use as a Super Saiyan.