"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

Can someone tell me why a Full Powered Super Saiyan 2 should be above or equal to SSJ 3 but a normal FPSSJ at the Cell saga was CLEARLY behind SSJ2

Did the scans claim Future Trunks used 'Super Saiyan 2 Grade IV'? If not, then it can be reconciled as training.

Woah there, who said that Trunks is a Super Saiyan 2 Grade 4/Full Power in the same way Goku was a Super Saiyan Grade 4/Full Power in the Cell Games? Super Saiyan Full Power is an upgraded Super Saiyan that removes most of the strain to the body & allows him to relax as if he is in his regular form. What Future Trunks does in his Super Saiyan 2 form is nothing like this, he is powering-up to a state with SS3 power without transforming, which is what Vegeta probably did by accident in BoG. People here call it "Super Saiyan 2 Full Power", but it has nothing to do with the real, official Super Saiyan Full Power. I think "Super Saiyan 2 Max Power" would be a more appropriate name, to avoid confusion.

I don't think the naming matters, there is definitely a secondary state of SSJ2 that Trunks goes into which may have only been possible through mastery of FSSJ2. I agree Rageta went to it by accident so great foreshadowing there.

[TheMikado]

This analogy doesn't work since we are dealing with fictional worlds here and not in real life. The author of the fiction decides what is canon in fictional worlds. Not in real life. So what I said can apply to fiction but not to real life.

The point I'm making is that what was once true may longer be true and sadly holding onto statements when the original author abandoned them years ago is not the way to create a functional current "canon" that encompasses the authors current vision and holding the author to that stifles the narrative he wants to create now in 2016. Why would you even want to do that?

[jplaya2023]

the thing i don't like is if lower ssj forms can magically get stronger than higher forms why keep ascending then? Just master your form and u will have the same power.

What i would've liked to seen is SSJ3 trunks in this battle with him mastering the form and becoming stronger than goku then.

How he get's ssj3 is like this

dabura kills ssj1 trunks and as a service he is transported to kaioshin realm, in which he trains withthe kaiou and obtains ssj2

He starts training with the Z sword and it breaks and old kaiou comes out.

He does the same ritual with trunks like gohan but instead he draws out his latent ssj potential which is ssj3.

Trunks returns and kills dabura as a stronger ssj1, then he trains to master ssj2 in 5 years then masters ssj3 in 5 years.

He fights black as a ssj3 and loses, then with goku he's stronger but goku quickly goes ssj red and knocks trunks out

[LightBing]

That's why I hate power levels discussions...

You know this actually makes no sense but still try to explain it.

Maybe Ultimate Gohan with mastering Unlocked Potential form will be >>>> SSGSS Goku just because his base is so much stronger.

Funny thing is Vegeta and Goku trained under Whis in their base forms... So even if they haven't mastered SS2 their base form is so much above Trunks that the normal mutliplier whould make them much stronger

Starting with the mastery talk in the Cell Games I always thought a fix multiplier is plain wrong. For me this makes sense, since long ago. I'm just sharing the thought process.
Flexibility should be the key word in Dragon Ball. Restring ourselves with plateaus, multipliers, old rules, doesn't do nobody any favors.

There's a reason Mr.Toriyama dropped power levels after the Namek arc, it was too restricting to think about everything while having a table at hand with Goku x50, add 10000 for training and he now is stronger than Boo. That's silly, instead he left everything in the open. That's why we have multipliers for the Kaioken and Oozaru in the manga and nothing else beyond that point.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But that's exactly what I mean and I think others mean. Why can't Trunks's SS2 form be like Goku's FPSS form?

But it isn't. SSFP Goku has no strain to his body & mind. "SS2FP" Trunks becomes around 4 times stronger than normally by getting angry. There is no connection there, no similarities at all.

[Chiki]

But that's exactly what I mean and I think others mean. Why can't Trunks's SS2 form be like Goku's FPSS form?

But it isn't. SSFP Goku has no strain to his body & mind. "SS2FP" Trunks becomes around 4 times stronger than normally by getting angry. There is no connection there, no similarities at all.

So Trunks got angry while sparring with Goku? I don't think so.

[Khin]

It looks like db-z.com removed the Majin Boo's rampage explanation bit; so it's probably fake.

[TheMikado]

That's why I hate power levels discussions...

You know this actually makes no sense but still try to explain it.

Maybe Ultimate Gohan with mastering Unlocked Potential form will be >>>> SSGSS Goku just because his base is so much stronger.

Funny thing is Vegeta and Goku trained under Whis in their base forms... So even if they haven't mastered SS2 their base form is so much above Trunks that the normal mutliplier whould make them much stronger

Starting with the mastery talk in the Cell Games I always thought a fix multiplier is plain wrong. For me this makes sense, since long ago. I'm just sharing the thought process.
Flexibility should be the key word in Dragon Ball. Restring ourselves with plateaus, multipliers, old rules, doesn't do nobody any favors.

There's a reason Mr.Toriyama dropped power levels after the Namek arc, it was too restricting to think about everything while having a table at hand with Goku x50, add 10000 for training and he now is stronger than Boo. That's silly, instead he left everything in the open. That's why we have multipliers for the Kaioken and Oozaru in the manga and nothing else beyond that point.

Well no I have a different view of SSJ forms in general.
The SSJ1 forms gives a minimum of x50 boost as a fresh out of he box SSJ. I think the multiplier is really 100x stronger once "mastered. But in between there's tons of methods and things you can creatively do with it until you get to SSJ2 which I personally consider the true SSJ power level at x100. For me SSJ3 has always been the equivalent of USSJ which improperly forcing power gains. I feel like SSJ has no real upper limit on the multiplier outside of training and experience. Improper power ups cause amalgamated forms like USSJ and SSJ3.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But that's exactly what I mean and I think others mean. Why can't Trunks's SS2 form be like Goku's FPSS form?

But it isn't. SSFP Goku has no strain to his body & mind. "SS2FP" Trunks becomes around 4 times stronger than normally by getting angry. There is no connection there, no similarities at all.

So Trunks got angry while sparring with Goku? I don't think so.

Vegeta got angry to reach that state against Beerus, and Trunks does look more intense when he powers up.

[THEGOKU]

Not sure if this was mentioned but it has to be considered. Think of Gohan when he got the power up from old kaioshin. He was stronger than Ssj3 Goku if I'm not mistaken but he did not have to be a supper Saiyan for that. It can be that Trunks became so strong with his training that he has no need for SSJ3 because his SSJ2 plus the training boost increased his strength enough. It's as I said before. Vegeta fought Perfect Cell and did not do well against him. While Goku who is essentially the same level of SSJ at the time with Vegeta was stronger than him. I think it's just hard to comprehend because he didn't transform and we know that each new SSJ level is stronger than the previous.

[Chiki]

But it isn't. SSFP Goku has no strain to his body & mind. "SS2FP" Trunks becomes around 4 times stronger than normally by getting angry. There is no connection there, no similarities at all.

So Trunks got angry while sparring with Goku? I don't think so.

Vegeta got angry to reach that state against Beerus, and Trunks does look more intense when he powers up.

Vegeta's powered up SS2 state, according to me, would not be FPSS2 to begin with since he achieved that power through anger. Trunks easily used it while calm while sparring against Goku.

Of course he looks intense, he powered up. Trunks didn't get angry while sparring against Goku so there's no reason to think that his power is activated by anger.

I repeat that FPSS2 is just speculation and a lot more evidence is needed to conclude anything.

[Friezacooler]

Means he isn't entirely safe or unstoppable by even mortal standards. Mean tension doesn't have be utterly dead when he shows up on screen.

Good luck with that. Good luck finding the Kaioshin. Hell any Kaioshin would murder early Vegeta easily.

Except his weakness has already been established by adding characters stronger then him. this is just adding unnessary weaknesses that at nothing to the plot except to dumb down the Z characters and readers of the show. and I mean Super is missing on characters with the mentality of namek/ saiyan saga vegeta. or simply on characters that could think. with such information Vegeta would have definitly attacked elder kai during BOG to get rid of Beerus or champa. or simply Beerus should have been death in Buu saga when elder kai gave up his life in favor of Goku. this is like insulting stabilised past events.

There's only 3 people stronger than him. Omni King, Whis, and Vados. He has connections to all of them, and none are out to kill him. It's not at all an unnecessary weakness. It means he is not untouchable to practically everyone. It also means we don't have to have a bad guy stronger than him to have some form of tension. Otherwise his presence utterly ruins EVERYTHING.

Again, good luck with that Vegeta. Good luck not only trying to locate the Kaioshin realm, but finding a way there. None of which he can do.

Still the greatest weakness of all DBZ characters, is that a character with half a brain could attack them during their sleep. just another flawed weakness that could be added to the list.

[dbzfan7]

Except his weakness has already been established by adding characters stronger then him. this is just adding unnessary weaknesses that at nothing to the plot except to dumb down the Z characters and readers of the show. and I mean Super is missing on characters with the mentality of namek/ saiyan saga vegeta. or simply on characters that could think. with such information Vegeta would have definitly attacked elder kai during BOG to get rid of Beerus or champa. or simply Beerus should have been death in Buu saga when elder kai gave up his life in favor of Goku. this is like insulting stabilised past events.

There's only 3 people stronger than him. Omni King, Whis, and Vados. He has connections to all of them, and none are out to kill him. It's not at all an unnecessary weakness. It means he is not untouchable to practically everyone. It also means we don't have to have a bad guy stronger than him to have some form of tension. Otherwise his presence utterly ruins EVERYTHING.

Again, good luck with that Vegeta. Good luck not only trying to locate the Kaioshin realm, but finding a way there. None of which he can do.

Still the greatest weakness of all DBZ characters, is that a character with half a brain could attack them during their sleep. just another flawed weakness that could be added to the list.

Again. HOW?! Good luck finding the Kaioshin to even do that, which again they can't. Kaioshin don't just live on earth waiting to be murdered. They live in a far secluded area that few people know of, and even fewer people can reach. The Kaioshin planet is not a amusement park attraction or landmark. It's an area few have been to, and even fewer have any ways of reaching. You have to have the gods version of teleporting to get there that way. Which no one else has Kai Kai. There's no people there strong enough to sense to get there either via Shunkan Ido, and they can't be sensed. Good luck getting Whis to take them there either.

The only way that weakness can play into anything is knowing the Kaioshin very closely, and finding a way there. Otherwise it's practically impossible to use such a weakness anyways. Kid Boo only managed to get there because Goku and Vegeta signaled him.

[404FILENOTFOUND]

Except his weakness has already been established by adding characters stronger then him. this is just adding unnessary weaknesses that at nothing to the plot except to dumb down the Z characters and readers of the show. and I mean Super is missing on characters with the mentality of namek/ saiyan saga vegeta. or simply on characters that could think. with such information Vegeta would have definitly attacked elder kai during BOG to get rid of Beerus or champa. or simply Beerus should have been death in Buu saga when elder kai gave up his life in favor of Goku. this is like insulting stabilised past events.

There's only 3 people stronger than him. Omni King, Whis, and Vados. He has connections to all of them, and none are out to kill him. It's not at all an unnecessary weakness. It means he is not untouchable to practically everyone. It also means we don't have to have a bad guy stronger than him to have some form of tension. Otherwise his presence utterly ruins EVERYTHING.

Again, good luck with that Vegeta. Good luck not only trying to locate the Kaioshin realm, but finding a way there. None of which he can do.

Still the greatest weakness of all DBZ characters, is that a character with half a brain could attack them during their sleep. just another flawed weakness that could be added to the list.

i don't think Vegeta will be able to kill Elder Kai without the other Kai and Goku trying to stop him and I'm sure Goku would stop Vegeta before he even gets a scratch on him tbh family
Do Kai even need sleep?

[nite_jay]

Compare Toriyama to Toyotorou

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The difference is vast, Dragon Ball became such a phenomenon because Toriyama was an amazing artist especially when it came to fight scenes while Toyo ranges from mediocre to just good.

I mean I agree with you that Toriyama is superior to Toyotorou in terms of fight choreography and impact, but the examples you gave for Toyotorou are terrible.

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I think that Toyataro is a pretty good fight artist, but the reason Toriyama's look better is because of how much more intense they look. Toyataro's can be more dynamic than Toriyama's, but the frequent plain white backgrounds, lack of action lines, pretty generic looking sound effects, etc. make his look a little more boring.

[batistabus]

I'm fine with Trunks SS2 being able to contend with Goku SS3/Goku using god ki for the following reasons:

1) Trunks is a Saiyan/Earthling hybrid and likely has higher potential than Goku/Vegeta.
2) Trunks has been training hard with SS2 while Goku has been focusing on improving his god ki.
3) Goku may have still been able to win as a SS3, but the purpose of the fight was to show Trunks how much room there still was for improvement. A close match would not have been conducive to that.
4) Trunks being this strong actually gives someone other than Goku and Vegeta the potential to make a difference if a threat appears. If/when he learns god ki, he should be able to contend on their level.

[Friezacooler]

There's only 3 people stronger than him. Omni King, Whis, and Vados. He has connections to all of them, and none are out to kill him. It's not at all an unnecessary weakness. It means he is not untouchable to practically everyone. It also means we don't have to have a bad guy stronger than him to have some form of tension. Otherwise his presence utterly ruins EVERYTHING.

Again, good luck with that Vegeta. Good luck not only trying to locate the Kaioshin realm, but finding a way there. None of which he can do.

Still the greatest weakness of all DBZ characters, is that a character with half a brain could attack them during their sleep. just another flawed weakness that could be added to the list.

i don't think Vegeta will be able to kill Elder Kai without the other Kai and Goku trying to stop him and I'm sure Goku would stop Vegeta before he even gets a scratch on him tbh family
Do Kai even need sleep?

of course they sleep, king kai likes to act like the earthlings and Beerus sleeps only to wake up for some good food. the other Koashin proply don't need it except for elder Kai cause of old age.

Vegeta or hit would have definitely token advantage of such major information. the kai's have shown to visit events organised by the earthlings, Vegeta don't have too
look them up as they arrive at the event anyway. don't know if it would work since elder kai is omniscient though.

[ekrolo2]

The movies are canon to the movie continuity, ok, but there's still an "ultimate canon" continuity which is everything that Toriyama, the creator, thinks is true..

And what that is, is a supreme pain in the ass to figure out as Toriyama is involved with all of this crap in one way or another. So, what counts more? The movies because he wrote them (which even that is debatable as he pretty much hijacked BoG and saying he wrote a script to F is an insult to script writers throughout the ages). He apparently sends scripts to the anime staff and he oversees the manga too.

So yeah, what the is exactly "ultimate canon" here? Especially since, almost if not everything Toriyama has said in interviews, has been pretty much contradicted by the movies or the anime or the manga at one point or another.

[Chiki]

The movies are canon to the movie continuity, ok, but there's still an "ultimate canon" continuity which is everything that Toriyama, the creator, thinks is true..

And what that is, is a supreme pain in the ass to figure out as Toriyama is involved with all of this crap in one way or another. So, what counts more? The movies because he wrote them (which even that is debatable as he pretty much hijacked BoG and saying he wrote a script to F is an insult to script writers throughout the ages). He apparently sends scripts to the anime staff and he oversees the manga too.

So yeah, what the is exactly "ultimate canon" here? Especially since, almost if not everything Toriyama has said in interviews, has been pretty much contradicted by the movies or the anime or the manga at one point or another.

What has Toriyama said that was contradicted by the movies? And yes, the anime has a lot of writing issues but the manga makes it pretty easily to tell what is a Toyotaro addition and what isn't.

[Drayenko]

2) Trunks has been training hard with SS2 while Goku has been focusing on improving his god ki.

So, he's been "improving his god ki" in order to be weaker. Makes sense.