"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Chiki]

2) Trunks has been training hard with SS2 while Goku has been focusing on improving his god ki.

So, he's been "improving his god ki" in order to be weaker. Makes sense.

? That's not what he said at all.

For example, suppose I'm training strength on Runescape and I train it to level 90. I then stop training it so that I can focus on magic which I train to 50. But Trunks has instead spent 10 years training strength to 99.

[Drayenko]

That's nice and all, but Goku always trains in base so that ALL of his forms get stronger.
Also, the argument that Trunks "found" a more powerful, efficient form for SS2, and Goku didn't, is nonsense.

Goku managed to come up with the Full Power SS in less than a year. He spent 7 years in the afterlife knowing there was something above that (SS2) and you're telling me he didn't milk the form to its maximum potential? I don't buy it.

But whatever.

[nite_jay]

That's nice and all, but Goku always trains in base so that ALL of his forms get stronger (another thing is I don't see Trunks training himself to death either. But that's personal opinion).

I could personally see Trunks training himself to death. Trunks is generally the kind of character who plays it safe, so him seeing a new level of power like SSJ2 and Cell almost beating that would probably motivate him enough to at least reach that for himself. He also left during the FPSSJ craze, so I wouldn't be surprised if he tried it with SSJ2 too.

[Drayenko]

Sure he trained, and reached SS2 in a span of 10 years. That's fine. But to be on par with a SS3 Goku (assuming he really is(?)) that's been training with Gods... Bleh.
(Haven't read the chapter anyway, still waiting for my V-jump, but yeah).

[Chiki]

That's nice and all, but Goku always trains in base so that ALL of his forms get stronger.
Also, the argument that Trunks "found" a more powerful, efficient form for SS2, and Goku didn't, is nonsense.

Goku managed to come up with the Full Power SS in less than a year. He spent 7 years in the afterlife knowing there was something above that (SS2) and you're telling me he didn't milk the form to its maximum potential? I don't buy it.

But whatever.

It's dumb if FPSS2 is true but they came up with it later on if that's the case so nothing we can do.

[nite_jay]

Sure he trained, and reached SS2 in a span of 10 years. That's fine. But to be on par with a SS3 Goku (assuming he really is(?)) that's been training with Gods... Bleh.
(Haven't read the chapter anyway, still waiting for my V-jump, but yeah).

I think it was also in part of Goku holding back. It's not impossible to surpress power in SSJ forms, and Goku would definitely have beat Trunks in SSJ3 anyway. I do kind of wonder how much Goku was holding back as a SSJ3, though. Also, Goku did FPSSJ in a year, so I don't see how Trunks couldn't improve SSJ2 so much in 10.


I'm really not trying to overthink this, but I guess thats kinda what has to be done.

[Drayenko]

Again, I don't have a problem with Trunks improving. Personally, I liked how the anime did this. They seemed to be on par with each other but Goku wasn't giving everything and that makes sense to me. He then goes and shows SS3 just to say "hey, you know, there's more."

[Noah]

I'm sorry but wth have I just read?

So according to the manga, if ALL the Kaioshin die (Supreme Kais and Don Kaio, not the lesser Kais), then Beerus magically dies, and that explains why Beerus doesn't exist in the future timeline?!

That creates more issues than it solves. First of all, future Beerus not interfering could be a result of him being asleep or strait up not given a crap because Beerus is like that, especially a Beerus who has never met Goku and Vegeta. And secondly if Beerus was about to die by the hands of (lol) Dabura, why didn't he intervene? Why didn't he intervene when Bibidi was killing the Kaioshin? Why didn't Whis wake him up to intervene? Why didn't Whis intervene himself? This is a really bad retcon and I hope it stays far away from the anime and it a Toyotarism and not a Toriama thing.

Exactly my thoughts, what about Future Whis? Why he didn't did anything?

3. Trunks fought Black for a year potentially getting some Zenkai boosts.

There's no such thing as Zenkai boosts after the Namek Arc (not taking account Cell's Zenkai to become Super Perfect)

I hate how absurdly strong Future Trunks has gotten, too. I mean, 10+ years of training will certainly yield great results, but for Goku to have use Super Saiyan God to defeat him? And before that, being on par with SSJ3 Goku as a SSJ2? This is the sort of power creep that has made power scaling in the Super anime a mess. Lets just hope this is the most extreme example the manga provides.

I don't know what we could do for now, seriously why is so hard to tell a new story with the old established patterns? That's why we should see Super as it's own thing, because connecting with DBZ just give us headaches.

[ekrolo2]

The movies are canon to the movie continuity, ok, but there's still an "ultimate canon" continuity which is everything that Toriyama, the creator, thinks is true..

And what that is, is a supreme pain in the ass to figure out as Toriyama is involved with all of this crap in one way or another. So, what counts more? The movies because he wrote them (which even that is debatable as he pretty much hijacked BoG and saying he wrote a script to F is an insult to script writers throughout the ages). He apparently sends scripts to the anime staff and he oversees the manga too.

So yeah, what the is exactly "ultimate canon" here? Especially since, almost if not everything Toriyama has said in interviews, has been pretty much contradicted by the movies or the anime or the manga at one point or another.

What has Toriyama said that was contradicted by the movies? And yes, the anime has a lot of writing issues but the manga makes it pretty easily to tell what is a Toyotaro addition and what isn't.

And those manga additions completely contradict what he said. Toriyama said Goku wouldn't need 2 and 3 anymore, now they're back. He said Goku wouldn't use Red God again, both BoG the film and the manga have gone against this. Goku is most definitely not a 6 to Beerus' 10 anymore either.

Pretty much everything he's said in interviews has been somewhat or completely contradicted by the various forms of new Dragon Ball material. The movies do it the least but it still does with him using Red God after it fades when Toriyama thinks he can't use it anymore. Then the manga and anime have gone even further. The former is directly monitored by Toriyama who made those various statements meaning he doesn't give enough of a fuck about "ultimate canon" to bother correcting those.

[Darkron2151]

Vegeta's powered up SS2 state, according to me, would not be FPSS2 to begin with since he achieved that power through anger. Trunks easily used it while calm while sparring against Goku.

Of course he looks intense, he powered up. Trunks didn't get angry while sparring against Goku so there's no reason to think that his power is activated by anger.

I repeat that FPSS2 is just speculation and a lot more evidence is needed to conclude anything.

Maybe this enhanced SSJ2 state is first initially unlocked through anger (like Rageta did) and Trunks was just able to train himself to tap into it at will. Similar to the initial Super Saiyan transformation. He's been fighting Black for year, so he most likely may have unlocked it during that time (possibly due to Bulma's death) and then was able to use it freely. The reason why Vegeta didn't is because he had other things to focus on (God ki and Super Saiyan Blue).

[Pannaliciour]

And what that is, is a supreme pain in the ass to figure out as Toriyama is involved with all of this crap in one way or another. So, what counts more? The movies because he wrote them (which even that is debatable as he pretty much hijacked BoG and saying he wrote a script to F is an insult to script writers throughout the ages). He apparently sends scripts to the anime staff and he oversees the manga too.

So yeah, what the is exactly "ultimate canon" here? Especially since, almost if not everything Toriyama has said in interviews, has been pretty much contradicted by the movies or the anime or the manga at one point or another.

What has Toriyama said that was contradicted by the movies? And yes, the anime has a lot of writing issues but the manga makes it pretty easily to tell what is a Toyotaro addition and what isn't.

And those manga additions completely contradict what he said. Toriyama said Goku wouldn't need 2 and 3 anymore, now they're back. He said Goku wouldn't use Red God again, both BoG the film and the manga have gone against this. Goku is most definitely not a 6 to Beerus' 10 anymore either.

Pretty much everything he's said in interviews has been somewhat or completely contradicted by the various forms of new Dragon Ball material. The movies do it the least but it still does with him using Red God after it fades when Toriyama thinks he can't use it anymore. Then the manga and anime have gone even further. The former is directly monitored by Toriyama who made those various statements meaning he doesn't give enough of a fuck about "ultimate canon" to bother correcting those.

I agree 100% and thats why my friend we need all to shut the f... up and enjoy the this f...... show.

[batistabus]

2) Trunks has been training hard with SS2 while Goku has been focusing on improving his god ki.

So, he's been "improving his god ki" in order to be weaker. Makes sense.

He's been "improving his god ki" in order to be stronger when using god ki, which he didn't use until he decided to end the fight.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Episode 55 introduced the Hakaishin-Kaioshin life connection thing from Chapter 15. I guess it was a Toriyama element afterall.

[omaro34]

Episode 55 introduced the Hakaishin-Kaioshin life connection thing from Chapter 15. I guess it was a Toriyama element afterall.

It did sound like a Toriyama idea mainly because of an old idea he adopted decades ago on the whole life connection between Piccolo and Kami.

[Xeztin]

Episode 55 introduced the Hakaishin-Kaioshin life connection thing from Chapter 15. I guess it was a Toriyama element afterall.

I haven't been following very close this week, are there only 39 pages this month or are they still missing?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

It did sound like a Toriyama idea mainly because of an old idea he adopted decades ago on the whole life connection between Piccolo and Kami.

I'm not saying it didn't sound like a Toriyama idea, as it's definitely a recycled concept. I was just questioning this specific application of it being from him or if Toyotaro was borrowing it on his own as an explanation for something that I'm not sure needed an answer.

I haven't been following very close this week, are there only 39 pages this month or are they still missing?

Yeah. Everything is accounted for.

[Friezacooler]

Episode 55 introduced the Hakaishin-Kaioshin life connection thing from Chapter 15. I guess it was a Toriyama element afterall.

you come up with that after 15 pages of discussion in this thread? " clap' clap' genuis".

[VegettoEX]

you come up with that after 15 pages of discussion in this thread? " clap' clap' genuis".

This is an unacceptable post.

It's completely valid to point out which major plot points are explained in a similar fashion between the anime and the manga, considering how many things -- literally from the very first chapter -- have been different between the two. People take interest in burrowing down in an attempt to figure out which ideas are original to Toriyama.

You have been issued an account strike. Let this be another public example of what we do not expect from our members. Please review the community guidelines (which you agreed to twice prior to registration) before making any further contributions.

[z_cherub]

you come up with that after 15 pages of discussion in this thread? " clap' clap' genuis".

This is an unacceptable post.

It's completely valid to point out which major plot points are explained in a similar fashion between the anime and the manga, considering how many things -- literally from the very first chapter -- have been different between the two. People take interest in burrowing down in an attempt to figure out which ideas are original to Toriyama.

You have been issued an account strike. Let this be another public example of what we do not expect from our members. Please review the community guidelines (which you agreed to twice prior to registration) before making any further contributions.

I agree that the post crossed the line, but why is this one of the few communities where seemingly nearly ALL the mods feel the need to "carry their big stick" so publicly and make their moderation comments in the middle of someone's thread?

In most forum communities, this is generally handled with post deletion and a PM. Do the mods here feel a need to "make an example" out of someone? Is there a general consensus among mods that the common members too frequently forget who the bosses are & need public reminders?

It's your dog and pony show, so do what you want. Just asking a seemingly pertinent question given the mod culture of public chastising of members and little to no discretion (privacy, etc.) shown here.

Edit to clarify: I'm not simply complaining about mods - my reasoning is that it's far less jarring to go through a thread, see an off color comment from one member that can be easily ignored/skimmed over than it is to see said comment followed by several paragraphs from a mod that outline what they did wrong, quote the offense so that I have to read it again, then publicly outline in detail the disciplinary action taken against the member. That whole fiasco just draws attention to the infraction & detracts MUCH more from the discussion/thread than simply seeing that a post was deleted.

[Ajay]

I agree that the post crossed the line, but why is this one of the few communities where seemingly nearly ALL the mods feel the need to "carry their big stick" so publicly and make their moderation comments in the middle of someone's thread?

As a new mod, trust me, you see the tiniest fraction of the moderation that goes on. The large majority of clean-up, warnings, and/or polite reminders are issued behind the scenes. We're not in the business of public spectacle at all times. Nobody enjoys that.

Public examples are simply there as a reminder of what is and what isn't okay, rather than any ego-inflating hammer-wave. It's much better to take that stance than to throw out last-resort account strikes willy-nilly.

With the high volume of new members popping up thanks to Super, it's best to make what we expect here explicitly clear, even if that is your expense. You should be cognisant of what you're posting, and perhaps thinks otherwise about hitting that submit button if it could potentially lead to embarrassment.

As always, you're free to discuss moderation concerns in the appropriate sections, but please keep this thread on-topic. Use the report button if you see any further issues, and we'll do our best to handle them appropriately. Thanks!