Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:51 pm

Xeztin wrote:I think SSJ2 Trunks being on-par/stronger than SSJ3 Goku is because of a hybrid thing? It seems Trunks has reached his max by normal means, until he gets a new transformation or Blue of course.
No, it's ludicrous, I mean if Trunks trained the past 9 years in the Gravity Chamber, ok that could be plausible but, enough to his SSJ2 form be on par with Post Whis training SSJ3 Goku? Impossible.
Zephyr wrote:Different levels of Super Saiyan seem so to elicit some different levels of focus and adrenaline. Super Saiyan is somewhat more intense than Base, 2 moreso than 1, and 3 moreso than 2. Blue has perfect ki control but also with the stamina drawback. It would make sense to use different forms at different times, depending on how one wants to go into a fight. The raw measurable ki may be equal, but their ability to use it would be stimulated in different ways depending on the form. Sort of like different types of drugs, I guess. Caffeine, alcohol, etc. all effect people in different ways, by balancing focus and adrenaline in different ways.

Probably forgot one key detail or another, but that's what was running through my head. Thoughts?
I like this reasoning, it could be interesting that they back to SSJ forms again because they affect the body in different ways that can be useful to certain battles, not only power wise.
Last edited by Noah on Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Beyond » Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:56 pm

So basically, the manga makes a lot of sense, and the anime suffers from either different writers having goku at different levels, a hidden two base, or a mid series retcon. Thank god I never cared about power levels much or this would have real bugged me. The fact that two base theory can still somewhat save the writing (for the anime) despite it probably never being a planned thing is amazing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Darkron2151 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:22 pm

So I'm just gonna go under the assumption that this SSJ2 for Trunks is the same SSJ2 "Mutation" that Vegeta unlocked with rage during BOG (to which Vegeta might've gotten a rage boost on top of it when he first used it), but Trunks has not only unlocked it but also can now use it at will, as that would all he would have against Black. With that said, here's my take on it:
  • [spoiler]Goku (Boo Arc): 60
    -SSJ3: 24,000
    Goku (BOG): 80
    -SSJ3: 32,000

    Vegeta (BOG): 80
    -SSJ2: 8,000
    -"Mutated" SSJ2 (+Rage Boost): 40,000

    Goku (Trunks Arc): 120
    -SSJ2: 12,000
    -SSJ3: 48,000

    Future Trunks (Trunks Arc): 120
    -SSJ2: 12,000
    -"Mutated" SSJ2 (Normal): 48,000
    -"Mutated" SSJ2 (+Rage Boost against Goku Black): 60,000

    Goku Black(So Far?): 80,000+?[/spoiler]
EDIT: Either all of ^that^ or Trunks just got so strong due to continuing his training as a Saiyan Halfling + Zenkais from Black, that his SSJ2 equals Goku's SSJ3.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:03 pm

Also, Golden Frieza says in one of the episodes that judging from SSB Goku's ki, that he would win the match.
In the Dragon Team subs for the episode all I can see is Goku commenting on how powerful Golden Frieza is and then Frieza says something about how Goku's sensing his power and can tell he's superior and Goku says it'll be a close fight.

I can't remember if they said he could sense that power in the movie or not.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:43 pm

Bullza wrote:
Also, Golden Frieza says in one of the episodes that judging from SSB Goku's ki, that he would win the match.
In the Dragon Team subs for the episode all I can see is Goku commenting on how powerful Golden Frieza is and then Frieza says something about how Goku's sensing his power and can tell he's superior and Goku says it'll be a close fight.

I can't remember if they said he could sense that power in the movie or not.
From Herms's fact checker: posting.php?mode=quote&f=25&p=1046047
Freeza: "Judging from the energy I'm sensing, it seems that I will be the victor, does it not?"
Goku: "I think it'll be a close match."
Freeza: "No, I am superior."
Trunks isn't god level in either the manga nor the anime.
Last edited by Chiki on Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:59 pm

So Dragon Team ere wrong? They're usually pretty good with stuff like that.
Trunks isn't god level in neither the manga nor the anime.
In the manga he doesn't appear to be. In the anime it's not entirely clear but he looks to be more than he doesn't. There's four things that point to him being that level and one possible thing that points to him not being that level.

Even if he isn't as strong as SSJG/SSJ Goku he's considerably stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks at least.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:20 pm

Bullza wrote:So Dragon Team ere wrong? They're usually pretty good with stuff like that.
Trunks isn't god level in neither the manga nor the anime.
In the manga he doesn't appear to be. In the anime it's not entirely clear but he looks to be more than he doesn't. There's four things that point to him being that level and one possible thing that points to him not being that level.

Even if he isn't as strong as SSJG/SSJ Goku he's considerably stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks at least.

Nothing of the sort has been shown. Him being Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks' level and no one commenting on is the same as saying Piccolo is Super Saiyan God Goku's level based on him not dying to Frost.

And I still don't see how the manga is more correct when it goes against the movie Toriyama wrote, instead we have to believe he made an unannounced retcon that Goku didn't absorbed godhood after all, didn't tell Toei or they ignored him, and the manga just happens to stumble upon the truth. For some reason that's easier to believe than the manga simply doing its own thing, per Toriyama's suggestion. And, again, the two base theory doesn't work because only the God forms have God ki. Saiyan Beyond God is just a title given in Heroes to mean post-BOG base form Goku and Vegeta. Such a form has never been hinted on the show.

On god sensing, it seems a high enough power is enough to sense God ki sense Freeza could sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and it was all self-learned, and he's new to sensing ki.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:26 pm

In the manga he doesn't appear to be. In the anime it's not entirely clear but he looks to be more than he doesn't. There's four things that point to him being that level and one possible thing that points to him not being that level.

Even if he isn't as strong as SSJG/SSJ Goku he's considerably stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks at least.
It's completely clear in the anime. First, this isn't about the one base or two base theory since whatever view you hold you can argue that Trunks isn't god level.

Second, the only reason you think Trunks is god level is because you are incapable of judging actions contextually. You look at something, don't consider it's context, and then the visual alone is evidence of something for you.

For example, your weak reasoning also implies Bulma beating up Goku at the end of BoG is proof that Bulma is god level. Even though it was a context in which Goku was relaxing and not going all out. Similarly, you take SSB Vegeta taking his time beating Trunks as proof of Trunks being strong. This is ridiculous because we know SS3 Goku is weaker than SSB no matter what view you hold, and he beat Trunks in 1 hit. Your pure visual reasoning also implies that SS3 Goku is stronger than SSB Vegeta. This is absurd.

The reasoning here is simple: apply the context of the training scene to the visuals. They were just sparring and playing a game, literally, on Vegeta's suggestion. It would be retarded for Vegeta to just anticlimactically OHKO Trunks while training. It makes no sense.

You really need to learn how to look at a scene and apply the context of the scene to your reasoning.

Third, SS2 Trunks is simply not god level in the anime since Golden Frieza and Hit can sense godly ki and so can Base Vegeta, all because of power as Whis said (they were not doing any training to sense god ki. As Vegeta himself said he was gardening and lifting weights to train for months). This directly proves that Base Vegeta is stronger than any form of Trunks.

Anyway I'm not going to reply again since there's no point, you never admit you're wrong just by people telling you you're wrong until you're given really direct evidence for it from the anime or manga. I'll wait for the next few episodes and the next chapter for more proof.

Although it seems like almost everyone in this thread accepts the two base theory now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:30 pm

I don't think Trunks (or Zamasu) are Super Saiyan God-level in the anime; that's way too crazy to go without comment, and doesn't line up with Trunks' surprise at the levels of power he sees in the past.

I do think there was a "retcon" as far as how this and the Universe 6 arcs are written, in regards to Goku and Vegeta's strength outside of Super Saiyam Blue. It mucks up the anime quite a bit, since it spent a fair amount of time doubling down on the idea of super-strong base forms in both its adaptation arcs and the added training with Whis, but it is what it is. If everything absolutely needs to make sense in-universe, you can go with the "two-base/beyond god" theory, but that's too bizarre an unstated mechanic for me to believe it's ever been intentional, and I'd be shocked if it comes to bear on any main plot from here out. It'd just help explain the earlier episodes and some of the wonky filler material like Copy Vegeta vs. Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks -- a "Marvel No Prize" way of making everything fit.
Last edited by Cipher on Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:36 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:32 pm

didn't tell Toei or they ignored him, and the manga just happens to stumble upon the truth. For
Why did he just stumble upon the truth? He talks to Toriyama himself..

Toyotaro is a smart fan who obviously accepts the two base theory lol. The power levels in the manga are basically all 100% predicted by the two base theory. That's the best proof of any theory you can get.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:38 pm

Chiki wrote:Toyotaro is a smart fan who obviously accepts the two base theory lol.
This is such a confusing way to put this. Couldn't it just be "who obviously realized characters were being written at their previous strength outside of Super Saiyan Blue"?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:14 pm

Cipher wrote:
Chiki wrote:Toyotaro is a smart fan who obviously accepts the two base theory lol.
This is such a confusing way to put this. Couldn't it just be "who obviously realized characters were being written at their previous strength outside of Super Saiyan Blue"?
I find your way of saying it much more confusing since we all know what the two base theory is.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:17 pm

According to Herms:
Whis says what's-his-face new guy (Daishinkan?) is one of the top 5 fighters around. Even Whis is no match for him!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:18 pm

Chiki wrote:
Cipher wrote:
Chiki wrote:Toyotaro is a smart fan who obviously accepts the two base theory lol.
This is such a confusing way to put this. Couldn't it just be "who obviously realized characters were being written at their previous strength outside of Super Saiyan Blue"?
I find your way of saying it much more confusing since we all know what the two base theory is.
The part I've always found off-putting/inaccurate about the two-base theory is that it assumes the series has been written with an unstated godly form that looks exactly like their normal base form in mind. It's right there in the name.

That isn't what Toyotaro's done. He's just kept Goku and Vegeta at roughly their previous levels with the addition of new, clearly defined god forms.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:20 pm

The part I've always found off-putting/inaccurate about the two-base theory is that it assumes the series has been written with an unstated godly form that looks exactly like their normal base form in mind. It's right there in the name.

That isn't what Toyotaro's done. He's just kept Goku and Vegeta at roughly their previous levels with the addition of new, clearly defined god forms.
I personally define the two base theory as Saiyans having two non-Super Saiyan forms, and I call non-Super Saiyan forms Bases. That's all that my theory is. I have no other assumptions.

Under my definition, even the Oozaru form is considered a Base, and that's fine with me. So are SBG and SSG.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:33 pm

In NEP, Goku Black seemed to tank an assault from SSJB Vegeta and that was before he transformed in Super Saiyan Rose. Goku and Vegeta are gonna get fucked.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:34 pm

Wtf, SSB Vegeta can't do any damage to Base Black?

I'm out of this thread. This is ridiculous

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:43 pm

Chiki wrote:Wtf, SSB Vegeta can't do any damage to Base Black?

I'm out of this thread. This is ridiculous
Goku Black must have been holding back a lot in his battles with Future Trunks and Goku. Then when he's gonna get serious, he just power up while he is in his base form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:43 pm

Nothing of the sort has been shown. Him being Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks' level and no one commenting on is the same as saying Piccolo is Super Saiyan God Goku's level based on him not dying to Frost.
They did comment on it. Beerus said he was pretty good and Goku said he was amazed at how far he'd come on his own. Piccolo didn't get any comment whatsoever.
Second, the only reason you think Trunks is god level is because you are incapable of judging actions contextually.
How come everyone else seems to be able to post comments without being snarky but you aren't able to?
For example, your weak reasoning also implies Bulma beating up Goku at the end of BoG is proof that Bulma is god level. Even though it was a context in which Goku was relaxing and not going all out.
Except you don't know in anyway at all that Goku was relaxing and not going all out. As nobody at all said that Goku was holding back when he was fighting Trunks, either in the anime or manga, then you don't actually know, you can only assume. What we do actually know however is that Trunks was holding back. Likewise we know Beerus was holding back because we know for a fact he can knock out people stronger than Bulma in one hit.
Similarly, you take SSB Vegeta taking his time beating Trunks as proof of Trunks being strong. This is ridiculous because we know SS3 Goku is weaker than SSB no matter what view you hold, and he beat Trunks in 1 hit. Your pure visual reasoning also implies that SS3 Goku is stronger than SSB Vegeta. This is absurd.
No it's not just that, it's also him being able to react to Super Saiyan Blue's speed and dodge his attack and it's not as though Vegeta let him hit him either. Again we know for a fact that SSJB is stronger than SSJ3. We also know that after Trunks fought SSJB Vegeta he was confident that they'd beat Black which he wasn't after he fought SSJ3 Goku. So Vegeta at that time would be putting out more power than what Goku did.

He can be holding back and that's fine but he would not laugh off SSJ3 and then go at Trunks at a level underneath SSJ3.
Third, SS2 Trunks is simply not god level in the anime since Golden Frieza and Hit can sense godly ki and so can Base Vegeta, all because of power as Whis said (they were not doing any training to sense god ki.
But Final Form Frieza can not sense Godly Ki meaning that it doesn't mean anything when Frieza was around the same level as the Base Saiyans when they fought and they were stronger after training with Whis.
Although it seems like almost everyone in this thread accepts the two base theory now.
No you can't keep forcing your opinions on to others and then trying to play that off as some kind of weird victory. With the newest chapter it only became even more obvious there is no two bases.

In the manga Goku didn't absorb the power of God and it goes Base -> SSJ -> SSJ2 -> SSJ3 -> SSJG -> SSJB. In the anime he did absorb the power of God and it goes Base -> SSJ -> SSJ2 -> SSJ3 -> SSJB.
Wtf, SSB Vegeta can't do any damage to Base Black?
Wow it's almost like SSJB isn't leagues above SSJ3 level like Mikado and myself mentioned. That surely can't make sense because Black is only as strong as SSJ3 Goku whose only Buu level right?

No this fits just fine, further confirmation that their Super Saiyans forms are God level like they said.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:57 pm

According to Herms, this is what is said during the NEP:
Black, show me your full power!
Yep. Goku Black has been holding back his power the whole time, even in his base form.

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