Universe, Multiverse/Megaverse and beyond.

[Grimlock]

Since the episode 55 of Dragon Ball Super showed us a new perspective of "-verse", and motivated since when "other Universes" concept was added to the
Dragon Ball lore, I decided to create a topic to discuss it entirely with you.

As you guys know, Zeno apparently lives in a place that it is possible to see all the Universes. Thereby, we conclude he lives outside of the twelve Universes (since I have my own terminology for things, I'm gonna use "Megaverse" for where Zeno lives, as "Multiverse" is the general name for the collection of all the Universes. I know other franchises use other names, so don't be bothered by it). What do you guys think about all of this? It will ever be possible to go beyond the Megaverse? If so, what expect from it? In Marvel comics franchise, we would go straight to reality (something that has already occurred by the way, through the use of a character), but when it comes to Dragon Ball, I would say we would finally encounter Akira Toriyama, as described by Daizenshuu 7, he is the ultimate ruler of Dragon Ball world, standing above everything and everyone.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Also, if you are interesting in knowing more in an easier way, please watch the last scene of "MIB - Men in Black" movie. The only problem is that they treat galaxies as marble balls rather than Universes themselves, but once you start thinking deeply and pretending each marble ball is a Universe instead, you will understand faster and better. The collection of marbles balls is the Multiverse, and the sack comprising them all is called "Megaverse". In terms of Dragon Ball, I would say Zeno lives outside of the marbles balls (Multiverse) but inside the sack (Megaverse). In general, each sack is a different franchise, and where that alien is we call reality (our reality), the Omniverse.

Do you have your own approach to the subject, please present it to me, I'd love to discuss it!

[Anime Kitten]

We have a thread that pretty much serves this same purpose. I'd recommend slightly rephrasing your very well thought out post for that thread.

[Cipher]

While you could potentially nest further and further in terms of more existing outside of Zenou's bubble of space-time, at this point, that's the extent of things. That said:

1) Unless they confirm Zenou is a constant across timelines, I'm assuming similar multiverses and similar versions of Zenou's realm exist parallel to what we've seen as a result of in-series time travel (the worlds that the green time rings have access to).

2) There's the greater meta world of ancillary Dragon Ball fiction that has no in-series connection to this web of parallel universes and timelines. This includes things like GT, the movies, manga/anime differences, video-games, SD, Dr. Slump (and all its parallel versions), other cross-referential Toriyama work, etc. Other fiction franchises have attempted to provide in-series connections between all their different meta versions, though it's unclear whether Dragon Ball will ever do so at this point.

[Pantalones]

I've never been a fan of the various "_____verse" terms for groupings of multiple universes or similar (they honestly just sound dumb), so I think I'd just say "the universes" or "the 12 universes" or something to reference the group... and maybe something like "Zen'ou's realm"/"Zen'ou's palace" or similar for the place where he hangs out with the universes -- or at least some sort of representations of them? -- visible, like how there's the Kaioshin realm outside the 7th universe (and presumably a similar setup for the rest, assuming they all have Kaioshins -- we only know for sure for the 6th/7th pair, the 10th, and probably the 3rd since that's the 10th's "twin." Maybe there's a universe out there with no gods at all, now that we've learned that killing all the highest creation gods off also kills the destruction god by way of some weird spirit-link/balance thing between them.)

I really doubt we're going to see anything "further out" beyond Zen'ou's place in Super, though. We haven't even seen anything from most of the 12 universes yet, after all. Heck, we haven't even seen much of the Demon Realm from the 7th, and we've known that was around ever since the Buu saga came out.

[Cetra]

Actually those introductions are nothing new, except for Dragon Ball. But even Stephen King has united all of his works in a "Makroverse", a grand entirety that contains everything. Now it is not perfectly the same because not all Toriyama-works are actually part of one and the same but Dragon Ball wise I can see that the universes and the timelines that are part of the universes are part of one and great "everything".

[Cipher]

Actually those introductions are nothing new, except for Dragon Ball. But even Stephen King has united all of his works in a "Makroverse", a grand entirety that contains everything. Now it is not perfectly the same because not all Toriyama-works are actually part of one and the same but Dragon Ball wise I can see that the universes and the timelines that are part of the universes are part of one and great "everything".

Technically we haven't had that yet. No fictional component has codified all things Dragon Ball into one great omni/macro/whatever-universe. Given Toriyama's control as a single author, it's unlikely anything ever will, though who knows? As he continues to build a larger and larger cosmic scope, he could always get cheeky and do it. Regardless, at this point there's just the twelve universes of Toriyama's Dragon World and their parallel timelines (as some sort of platonic ideal existing between the movies, anime, and manga he's helped author), and every other entry in the franchise's metafiction exists unconnected. This isn't to address a notion of "canon"; just to lay out which different "worlds" have been connected to us within the fiction, and which haven't.

I haven't played the recent games, but I think Xenoverse implies at some point that GT exists as an alternate, accessible timeline in that world? Just wanted to bring that up to clarify that it wouldn't have any bearing on what Super's laying out, though it does make some metafictional connections that at this point apply only to it. I suppose if you wanted to get really nerdy about it and something did codify a metafictional multiverse at some point, on a broader scale, that entire game world could end up in its own little pocket if it doesn't align with the rest of the system.

None of this really matters, of course. But as someone who doesn't get into a lot of world-building fiction, it's fun to see Dragon Ball grapple with this. (And I'm no stranger to it from few kinds of hard genre fiction I do enjoy; I've been around the superhero comic block a couple times. DC loves to waffle on whether it has a metafictional multiverse, a discreet one unique to its comics, or both. Weirdly enough, Ninja Turtles went and introduced a metafictional multiverse while it was still owned by its original creator and indie comics company.)

Basically, at this point, Toriyama's Goku can step into Universe 12. If he has the right time ring, he can step into the timeline Cell came from. But he can't step into the grand tour. Or Z Movie 6. Or be ready for this.

[Cetra]

Technically we haven't had that yet.

Which is why I said it is not exactly the same thing as with Stephen King. Also not when it comes to all works of Dragon Ball. I meant it more like "everything that we have seen with the twelve universes and the timelines seems to be part of something way bigger". That context I mean. Not specifically "oh yes, that part of the franchise is also included.

[Cipher]

Which is why I said it is not exactly the same thing as with Stephen King. Also not when it comes to all works of Dragon Ball. I meant it more like "everything that we have seen with the twelve universes and the timelines seems to be part of something way bigger". That context I mean. Not specifically "oh yes, that part of the franchise is also included.

Oh, sorry. I thought you were saying they were dissimilar only because not all Toriyama works are connected.

[Cetra]

Which is why I said it is not exactly the same thing as with Stephen King. Also not when it comes to all works of Dragon Ball. I meant it more like "everything that we have seen with the twelve universes and the timelines seems to be part of something way bigger". That context I mean. Not specifically "oh yes, that part of the franchise is also included.

Oh, sorry. I thought you were saying they were dissimilar only because not all Toriyama works are connected.

It is a part of what I meant, I was not really thinking about the "other Dragon Ball stuff" while posting it but of course that is another point of the argument. Basically you helped me making it more clear.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I see timelines and universes as being two separate things. One universe can have multiple timelines, but they're still part of that same universe.

[Grimlock]

While you could potentially nest further and further in terms of more existing outside of Zenou's bubble of space-time, at this point, that's the extent of things. That said:

1) Unless they confirm Zenou is a constant across timelines, I'm assuming similar multiverses and similar versions of Zenou's realm exist parallel to what we've seen as a result of in-series time travel (the worlds that the green time rings have access to).

I take the other way around, until they confirm, I prefer to think Zeno is a multiversal singularity. In other words, there's only one Zeno. Multiple timelines don't affect him and he can travel through timelines with no problem and without the need of Time Rings (actually, I even think that button will be used by Goku in Trunks' future, and Zeno will appear).

2) There's the greater meta world of ancillary Dragon Ball fiction that has no in-series connection to this web of parallel universes and timelines. This includes things like GT, the movies, manga/anime differences, video-games, SD, Dr. Slump (and all its parallel versions), other cross-referential Toriyama work, etc. Other fiction franchises have attempted to provide in-series connections between all their different meta versions, though it's unclear whether Dragon Ball will ever do so at this point.

Yeah, but if we try to include all those parallel works, all this subject will be destroyed. For now, I think it is a great explanation in-universe to the Multiverse concept but ignoring other stuff that you mentioned. Maybe in the future we can try to solve and add them.

I see timelines and universes as being two separate things. One universe can have multiple timelines, but they're still part of that same universe.

You are correct, timelines and Universes are two different concepts. Otherwise, there wouldn't be 12 Universes, there would be more. A different timeline lies within a Universe. Even though the differences between them are easy to understand, I see many people with problems with it.

[Anime Kitten]

What's wrong with you guys? It's called a Zen'ōverse.

[Zephyr]

In Zeno's realm there, where all 12 Universes are sitting in heir orbs atop their pillars....we see countless galaxies in the background. What gives?

[Polyphase Avatron]

In Zeno's realm there, where all 12 Universes are sitting in heir orbs atop their pillars....we see countless galaxies in the background. What gives?

Those are probably just representations/windows into the 12 universes. Maybe the background is another window?