Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[buutenks]

Trunks can easily be ssj3 Gotenks/ Ultimate Gohan level. It wouldnt be far fetched if he got that strong.

Also about Beerus saying Trunks is good, Beerus was also a bit impressed with Goku when he first met him, once Goku went ssj3.

Plus i somehow doubt Zamasu is god level ,especially after Beerus said that ofcourse Zamasu wouldnt stand a chance against Goku, who fought Beerus.

So while Zamasu is super strong, proly strong enough that if Buu had shown up in U10, Zamasu would have sent him packing, he isnt at ssg level.

[TheMikado]

I have no problem seeing Trunks higher than buu saga characters. I just dont see him at super saiyan god levels, that is all. Since no one mentioned anything in universe.

According to Bullza, the main reason the two base theory is false is because no one mentioned it.

But when it's something that he likes--Trunks is SSG level--it's fine for him if no one mentioned it.

Look at the double standard (in terms of logic, I don't mean it at a personal level) here.

I don't think this is necessary, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[dbzfan7]

New tier list as of Current standings, which do alter past comparisons.

Top Tier

Omni King Zeno
Super Saiyan Satan (Yes I know for some this is blasphemy, but it was a close call. I feel Zeno is above even Super Satan)
Attendants 1 & 2
Grand Priest

God Tier

Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa
Black
SSJB Goku/Vegeta
Hit (His abilities combat the raw power difference)
Golden Freeza
SSJ God Goku

Powerful Tier

SSJ3 Goku/Manga Trunks (Just a mention of the difference)
SSJ2 Goku
SSJ2 Trunks Anime
SSJ Goku/Vegeta
SSJ Trunks
Magetta
SSJ Cabba
True Frost

Middle Tier

Super Mega Awesome Chaozu
Base Goku/Vegeta
Base Trunks
3rd Form Frost
Tired Frost
Boo
Piccolo
First Form Frost
SSJ Trunks
Botamo

Cheerleader Tier

18
Base Trunks
Krillin
Tenshinhan
Yamcha
Chaozu
Yajirobe
Pan
Karin
Bulma
Dr. Briefs
Mrs. Briefs

And that's it I think. You might be wondering or thinking I forgot someone, but that's ok, so did they.

[TheMikado]

Finally, are you implying Base and SBG Goku are not the only two bases of the theory? What are you talking about? Mikado?

I have no idea what is happening in here or why my name was brought up, but I'll do my best to reply.

The history of the two base theory begin in the Champa arc tournament when the manga was running ahead. In it we saw, or rather argued if Goku went SSJ against Frost or if this was a publishing error with shading. It was later confirmed it was indeed SSJ we lead to two different branches.

1) They had a single strong base which was SSJ3 Gotenks level+ and the progression in increasing power levels followed: Base < SSG< SSJ Levels < SSB . SSJ3 vs Base Copy Vegeta seemed to confirm this in the anime. In this version SSB is the only form which is embued with God Ki and cannot be sensed.

2) They had obtained the ability to turn God Ki/power on or off at will independently of SSJ/SSB. This theorized that Goku/ Vegeta should be able to turn God power on and off like a light switch and that their normal base forms were not significantly stronger than their Buu/BoG selves. It was argued that Saiyan beyond God was a form and not their new normal base despite no visual indication that the power level was substantial different. This is why it became known as the "two base theory" ( two different power levels that look the same in base). This theory was specifically created for the ANIME. In the manga this form is replaced or taken by SSG. This the argument is that this same form SHOULD be in the anime but it is invisible and looks just like Gokus normal base. Further the power level progression should be as follows: Base < SSJ levels < SSG < SSB. Where he hierarchy of SSG in relation to SSB is reversed compared to the one base theory. The ability to turn God Ki on or off at will and outside of SSB was confirmed in the anime with the return of SSG. This was predicted by the two base theory that characters should have the ability to do that (Have God Ki but no SSJ).

problems that exist:
The issue is that both media are written a certain way with a different power structure. Essentially making everyone arguing correct... In the anime there is no form which has SSG power other than SSB, it IS NOT written with a second base as we theorized. But that also does not mean it was written correctly either. We see clearly in the manga SSJ level are meant to be below SSG and in the anime they are above. In this sense the theory is both correct and incorrect.

[Bullza]

Look at the double standard (in terms of logic, I don't mean it at a personal level) here.

It's really not the same. Obviously they have never mentioned their being two bases in any version of these events but they have only ever consistently shown them to be much stronger than before.

I never said that Trunks has to be God level because nobody has said he isn't. I said he might not be. What I'm saying is that they never said Goku or Vegeta held back against Trunks. So if they didn't hold back and Trunks was able to push Goku back while Trunks was holding back and he can react to and withstand attacks from Vegeta then he should ideally be around that level.

It's been specifically stated that God level can't be attained without the ritual or special training. It was a level that Goku couldn't reach through training. So why the hell would Future trunks be at that level?

Who can really say, Super Saiyan was supposed to be attained by them feeling a huge amount rage but then Trunks and Goten achieved it. Goku said SSJG was a power he couldn't have achieved on his own in one movie and then by the next Vegeta had apparently achieved it on his own.

It makes no sense at all. It doesn't even make sense for him to be as strong as SSJ3 Goku in the manga either. Goku and Vegeta have had more time to get stronger and many more advantages to their method of training...but SSJ2 Trunks is equal to SSJ3 Goku anyway because....?

[Noah]

So we can say that Black is SSJ3-tier in his base right, is "Super Saiyan Rosé" something like a variation of SSJ or a corrupted SSGSS? I'm asking because I want to know if:

Current SSJ3-tier x50 would be somewhat stronger than SSGSS

[TheMikado]

So we can say that Black is SSJ3-tier in his base right, is "Super Saiyan Rosé" something like a variation of SSJ or a corrupted SSGSS? I'm asking because I want to know if:

Current SSJ3-tier x50 would be somewhat stronger than SSGSS

Multiplier estimates put SSG at x1000 and SSB as x10 that so x10,00". Assuming this just normal SSJ and Black is at x400 levels currently then a SSJ x50 would be X 20,000. So (assuming this is all actually planned out well Black would be x2 as strong as a SSB from just SSJ alone. This is all theorical of course and can be off the mark.

[Alruneia]

Shooting this in, I'm pretty sure the top five power list in the multiverse goes like this:
1. Zen'ou
2. Zen'ou's two guards
4. The Grand Attendant
5. An unknown person

We don't know how strong Zen'ou's guards actually are, but I think they're up there. They need to be able to protect Zen'ou from absolutely everything, after all.

[apex_pretador]

New tier list as of Current standings, which do alter past comparisons.

Top Tier

Omni King Zeno
Super Saiyan Satan (Yes I know for some this is blasphemy, but it was a close call. I feel Zeno is above even Super Satan)
Attendants 1 & 2
Grand Priest

Interesting, it makes the top 5 people whis talked about.
I think satan will evolve to another form surpassing these all.

God Tier

Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa
Black
SSJB Goku/Vegeta
Hit (His abilities combat the raw power difference)
Golden Freeza
SSJ God Goku

Seems good, except you seem to not put KKx10 Goku.
Again, if yo are going by manga, it states that SSB vegeta was at 10% power by Whis when he got beat by hit, so SSB goku vs SSB vegeta was the same difference with hit being in the middle.

Powerful Tier

SSJ3 Goku/Manga Trunks (Just a mention of the difference)
SSJ2 Goku
SSJ2 Trunks Anime
SSJ Goku/Vegeta
SSJ Trunks
Magetta
SSJ Cabba
True Frost

I disagree a bit here.
I think Trunks should be the same level of power in both manga and anime, while it will be GOKU / VEGETA with different power levels. Just like how anime base goku > SS3 gotenks, but manga base goku is only slightly below piccolo.
So, it can be like

SS3 goku (anime)
SS2 goku anime
SS2 future trunks / SS goku anime
SS3 goku manga
SS2 goku manga
SS future trunks
SS goku manga
SS cabba

Middle Tier

Super Mega Awesome Chaozu
Base Goku/Vegeta
Base Trunks
3rd Form Frost
Tired Frost
Boo
Piccolo
First Form Frost
SSJ Trunks
Botamo

Cheerleader Tier

18
Base Trunks
Krillin
Tenshinhan
Yamcha
Chaozu
Yajirobe
Pan
Karin
Bulma
Dr. Briefs
Mrs. Briefs

Pan below base trunks? And you forgot gohan.
Other than that, pretty perfect list.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So we can say that Black is SSJ3-tier in his base right, is "Super Saiyan Rosé" something like a variation of SSJ or a corrupted SSGSS? I'm asking because I want to know if:

Current SSJ3-tier x50 would be somewhat stronger than SSGSS

The maximum power Black has displayed is a little higher than SS3 Goku's, but we don't know if that was his full power. The preview of the next episode shows Black being overpowered by SSB Vegeta, but he seems to be capable of withstanding his hits, and SSR Black forced both SSB Goku & Vegeta to step into the fight together. That's all we know so far, but the next 2 episodes will give use more information about Black.

We also have no idea what Super Saiyan Rose is yet, like if it's a corrupted SSB, a form beyond SSB, or a form exclusive to Black because he may have Zamasu's power.

[HeroR]

Damn... why I am seeing it again ?, why can't people just understand that neither base goku or vegeta are at ssg level, hell they are not even close to it. U6 fighters are top tiers buu arc at the best, nothing else. The way beerus is treating goku(base) I can see base goku being weak and insignificant to god level, but beerus knows that goku has transformations and they can change this matter.

In the manga, the latest chapter it was pointed out specifically that neither goku or vegeta are not even close to beerus. Hell, even beerus didn't comment on ssg goku in u6 being any stronger then ssg goku against beerus, which shows raise of power and improvement over base form may be really small.

In the anime, Goku is still treated casually and Trunks isn't even close to ssg, as beerus was never that impressed with him at all. Berus calling Trunks pretty good just shows trunks at his absolute maximum make him enraged ss2 vegeta from bog arc and most likely higher.

base Goku/vegeta -1
Ss goku/vegeta - 50
ss2 goku/vegeta - 100
ss3 goku - 400
ssg goku - 6000
ssb goku/vegeta - 7000-8000
beerus - 10 000

Well that it. Also please give me break with kaiokenx10 ssb bullshit, extra addition

In the anime it has been shown several times that Goku's base and Super Saiyan forms are on par with Super Saiyan God.

First, Goku was able to fight Beerus first as a Super Saiyan and then in his base form after losing Super Saiyan God. This is after Beerus two-shotted Super Saiyan 3 Goku and dismissed Ultimate Gohan.

Second, Freeza in his weakest form killed Piccolo with one Death Beam and put holes through Super Saiyan Gohan whose power is almost on par with Ultimate Gohan. Goku comes and is able to fight Freeza in his final form.

Third, Goku is able to fight Beerus when he's in his Monaka outfit. Although Beerus was held back, both Goku and Beerus put some much forced into their spar that Whis had to stop the fight before they blew up the planet. And later, we see Copy-Vegeta no sells Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks' attacks in his base form, and then Goku comes and easily catches Copy-Vegeta's fist.

So in the anime, Goku and Vegeta are Super Saiyan Gods in their base or at least their Super Saiyan forms.

[HeroR]

Not, wow, you're up there with Gohan at his best, or something like the manga did.

Well that's just specifics. People didn't seem to have any issue with Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta being stronger than Ultimate Gohan even though Roshi only said he was stronger Goku did they?

So, I'm going to need some hard evident to be convince that Trunks is past Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

Well there is none, I could be completely wrong entirely. Once again I'm just taking things as they were presented. They said SSJ Goku wasn't weaker than SSJG Goku. SSJ2 Goku would be stronger and Trunks was able to force him to defend himself and push him back. They never said he held back but they did with Trunks.

Trunks was able to put pressure on SSJ3 Goku's arm when he was blocking his sword but as a SSJ he took what Frost said was a full power punch and he just grabs his arm and it doesn't budge at all.

Whis says that Black is impressive in the present but Trunks fought him in the future where he was supposed to be stronger and he was able to hold his own briefly against someone who can probably hold his own against SSJB Vegeta going by the preview.

He can react to SSJB Vegeta's speed, he dodged his punch, he was kicked through a forest and punched around and stayed conscious but Cabba dropped before he knew what happened. Afterwards Trunks was impressed enough with Vegeta's power that he was sure they'd beat Black.

The manga is different but they both present the same idea that Trunks has powered up enough to be on a similiar level to Goku's Super Saiyan forms.

Vegeta isn't going to let someone push him around, even the merged form of his son, while Goku will let people wail on him before attacking.

Well Gotenks couldn't push him around. He was hitting and blasting away at him but it wasn't affecting him at all. He didn't do the same thing with Magetta or Cabba because they could affect him.

Doesn't make sense for SSJ2 Goku who was said to be tens of times stronger than his base form to be pushed back and guard himself from someone if they're weaker than Gotenks.

We have no statements of the such for Trunks.

We don't have any statements that Goku was holding back or dicking about against Trunks. No statement that SSJB Vegeta was holding back either.

To say he can't be at that level because it wasn't said but then assume they were holding back even though that wasn't said doesn't seem right.

We really don't need a statement that Goku wasn't being serious because he rarely is. In fact, people only comment on Goku's behavior when he is serious. It's only Trunks wondering why Goku wasn't using his full power against Black. Also, Super Saiyan 2 Goku could trade blows with Black, when we saw Trunks fight Black as a Super Saiyan 2 in a flashback, he got railroaded.

We also can't say but the logic, since such and such didn't go down in one hit, then they are on par with this character, since that's the reasoning people used to call Black weak because Super Saiyan Trunks managed to hit him and Black didn't splattered Trunks across the planet.

[Bullza]

Well they did say that Black was weaker in the present and that was by the end of the fight. He was even weaker still when he started fighting Goku. The preview showed Black withstanding SSJB Vegeta's attacks and Trunks was able to go toe to toe with him briefly in their last fight so how weak can he be?

Vegeta went at Trunks at a higher level than Goku did but Trunks wasn't bowled over there. It seems a bit farfetched that all three characters were holding back without any of them saying so.

And like I said Trunks attacked SSJ3 Goku with his sword, Goku caught it and his arm was unsteady. Frost attacks SSJ Goku with an unrestrained punch, Goku grabs his fist and his arm does not move at all.

[HeroR]

Well they did say that Black was weaker in the present and that was by the end of the fight. He was even weaker still when he started fighting Goku. The preview showed Black withstanding SSJB Vegeta's attacks and Trunks was able to go toe to toe with him briefly in their last fight so how weak can he be?

Vegeta went at Trunks at a higher level than Goku did but Trunks wasn't bowled over there. It seems a bit farfetched that all three characters were holding back without any of them saying so.

And like I said Trunks attacked SSJ3 Goku with his sword, Goku caught it and his arm was unsteady. Frost attacks SSJ Goku with an unrestrained punch, Goku grabs his fist and his arm does not move at all.

His arms weren't unsteady. He looked like a cocky punch when he easily caught Trunks' attack. Also, since different people animate Super, we can't compare fight scenes in such a way because everyone has different styles. Unless the same person who did the Frost vs. Goku fight did the Goku vs. Trunks fight.

And Super Saiyan 2 Goku was able to fight Black who was holding back. Trunks at his best got floored, and Black wasn't trying then either. Also, Black was weaker since Trunks said before that Black was as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku and was struggling against Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

Context is important here.

[Bullza]

His arms were wavering under the pressure that Trunks was putting on him which is not something he did against Frost when he was at 1/8th of the strenght. You can argue that it's because of the animators but then that's just looking for excuses.

Before they start fighting Goku says he wants to see how he compares to Black so he's not gonna be suppressing his power or playing around because that's no use to him at all.

When Goku actually fights Black. Trunks doesn't say anything about how he was stronger than when he fought him. He pretty much says the opposite so they were both weaker than SSJ3 Goku.

While Goku fought against a Black who was at first weaker than and then equal to his SSJ2 strenght, Trunks fought Black at a level slightly above SSJ3 Goku and again he forced him to protect himself. If SSJ3 Gotenks can blast away at Copy Vegeta and he can just stand and take it because it doesn't affect him at all then why would Black who is about 400 times more powerful need to guard blasts from someone weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks?

Why would Black being holding back? He just told him he was about to kill him. He would have if Trunks hadn't thrown the sword at him.

[DBZ Macky]

Some questions for you guys:
Could it be that SSJG without the ritual is 10x weaker than SSJG with the ritual and SSJB is bringing out full SSJG power?
Could Zalama be stronger than Omni-King since his dragon can grant ANY wish, including killing the Omni-King?
Would you say Omni-King's attendants are stronger than Daishinkan and Whis?
Could a hypothetical Kaioken x20 SSGSS Goku beat Beerus?
Was Vegeta stronger than Goku at any point? Would you put him weaker than or equal to Goku currently?
Do you believe Manga Trunks attained some advanced form of SSJ2 and that Rageta was a similar phenomenon?
How much difference in power would Daishinkan and Whis have? (I'd like if you could share your numbers for them)

Do you think these are the top 5 fighters Whis was referring to:
1.Zalama
2.Omni-King
3.Omni-King attendant 1
4.Omni-King attendant 2
5.Daishinkan

[HeroR]

His arms were wavering under the pressure that Trunks was putting on him which is not something he did against Frost when he was at 1/8th of the strenght. You can argue that it's because of the animators but then that's just looking for excuses.

Before they start fighting Goku says he wants to see how he compares to Black so he's not gonna be suppressing his power or playing around because that's no use to him at all.

When Goku actually fights Black. Trunks doesn't say anything about how he was stronger than when he fought him. He pretty much says the opposite so they were both weaker than SSJ3 Goku.

While Goku fought against a Black who was at first weaker than and then equal to his SSJ2 strenght, Trunks fought Black at a level slightly above SSJ3 Goku and again he forced him to protect himself. If SSJ3 Gotenks can blast away at Copy Vegeta and he can just stand and take it because it doesn't affect him at all then why would Black who is about 400 times more powerful need to guard blasts from someone weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks?

Why would Black being holding back? He just told him he was about to kill him. He would have if Trunks hadn't thrown the sword at him.

I am looking for an excuse? I am just pointed out that using fight footage from two different animators really don't prove anything. Especially when Goku has a shit grin on his face, showing that he isn't struggling. And we both know someone can be powered to the full power, without actually attacking at their full power. Which is why 50% Freeza didn't scattered Goku across the planet in one punch. The same with Goku after he became a Super Saiyan. Goku was holding back from start, otherwise he would had jumped straight to Super Saiyan 3 or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So Goku just using Super Saiyan 2 was holding back against Trunks.

He said Goku wasn't fighting at his best because he was only using Super Saiyan 2, when he knows that he has a whole another transformation, and that's before he even knew Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan existed. Trunks also didn't force Goku to protect himself. Goku just chose to block him instead of doing Copy-Vegeta, fold his arms and tanks attacks. Goku and Vegeta, as I pointed out, have two different fight styles. Vegeta isn't going to let anyone push him around, while Goku will let people weaker than him pound on him for several minutes.

We know Black is holding back because even if Trunks is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, Black can still kill Trunks in one hit since he's on par with at least Super Saiyan 2 Goku, who if we used the old multipers, would be 100x stronger than Trunks.

[Bullza]

No not you specifically, it's just that anything that points to Trunks being that strong someone has an answer for it that's just merely speculative.

Between actually seeing that Trunks could make SSJ3 Goku's arm waver whereas Frost couldn't make SSJ Goku's arms waver or assuming that maybe it's just because of the animators, I'd go with what we saw.

Between believing that Beerus views Vegeta as utterly pathetic and Trunks as pretty good or assuming that Beerus was just being mean to Vegeta because of this and that, I'd go with what he said.

After what the series presented we're really supposed to believe that all three characters just happened to be holding back against Trunks even though that doesn't benefit any of them, a Buu saga level Trunks just happened to get the compliments of Beerus and Goku, the animators just decided to animate the scene that way and that Trunks isn't around Goku's regular Super Saiyan forms like he is in the manga?

We know Black is holding back because even if Trunks is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, Black can still kill Trunks in one hit since he's on par with at least Super Saiyan 2 Goku, who if we used the old multipers, would be 100x stronger than Trunks.

But SSJ2 Trunks could be on par with SSJ2 Goku which would be why he was able to hold his own for just a little bit rather than get head poked into unconsciousness. Maybe he'd have been able to put up as good of a fight against the weaker Black that appeared in the present. He told him he was going to kill him, he powered up a big blast that he was just about to throw at him to kill him so why would he be trying to kill him and hold back at the same time?

[ssbgoku]

Damn... why I am seeing it again ?, why can't people just understand that neither base goku or vegeta are at ssg level, hell they are not even close to it. U6 fighters are top tiers buu arc at the best, nothing else. The way beerus is treating goku(base) I can see base goku being weak and insignificant to god level, but beerus knows that goku has transformations and they can change this matter.

In the manga, the latest chapter it was pointed out specifically that neither goku or vegeta are not even close to beerus. Hell, even beerus didn't comment on ssg goku in u6 being any stronger then ssg goku against beerus, which shows raise of power and improvement over base form may be really small.

In the anime, Goku is still treated casually and Trunks isn't even close to ssg, as beerus was never that impressed with him at all. Berus calling Trunks pretty good just shows trunks at his absolute maximum make him enraged ss2 vegeta from bog arc and most likely higher.

base Goku/vegeta -1
Ss goku/vegeta - 50
ss2 goku/vegeta - 100
ss3 goku - 400
ssg goku - 6000
ssb goku/vegeta - 7000-8000
beerus - 10 000

Well that it. Also please give me break with kaiokenx10 ssb bullshit, extra addition

In the anime it has been shown several times that Goku's base and Super Saiyan forms are on par with Super Saiyan God.

First, Goku was able to fight Beerus first as a Super Saiyan and then in his base form after losing Super Saiyan God. This is after Beerus two-shotted Super Saiyan 3 Goku and dismissed Ultimate Gohan.

Second, Freeza in his weakest form killed Piccolo with one Death Beam and put holes through Super Saiyan Gohan whose power is almost on par with Ultimate Gohan. Goku comes and is able to fight Freeza in his final form.

Third, Goku is able to fight Beerus when he's in his Monaka outfit. Although Beerus was held back, both Goku and Beerus put some much forced into their spar that Whis had to stop the fight before they blew up the planet. And later, we see Copy-Vegeta no sells Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks' attacks in his base form, and then Goku comes and easily catches Copy-Vegeta's fist.

So in the anime, Goku and Vegeta are Super Saiyan Gods in their base or at least their Super Saiyan forms.

Ok, let's see:

1) Means nothing, as he was still using ssg power internally while using ss outside of his body. It just shows that ss allowed goku to extend span of time while he could preserve ssg power(forced it to stay within him internally and delaying it's fadding away process). Base goku being abe to destroy beerus attack was just matter of will and also last burst of ssg fading away power to use it all at once. Literally what Akira meant by goku absorbing goodhood in himself was goku being able to use divine ki once he learns to call it back(whis's training was needed and resulted in ssb). This was only cofirmed by King Kai mentioning goku managed to become god again after turning into ssb.

2) Sure, fireeza have done this, but I disagree with ss gohan being any close to ultimate gohan as nothing points to such conclusion. Hell Gohan admiting to not train and not be certain to turn into ss makes it clear as day that gohan just got weaker if not much weaker then buu arc ultimate self. Gohan loosing muscles, neglecting training just further hints gohan was weaker. Also Majin buu being brought up for safety case shows that gohan was at the most barerly above him, which means ss gohan ~ fat buu(enraged Mr buu). Honestly I believe not even first form frieeza could beat fat buu... However Final form frieza should be at least around buutenks at least.

3) Again, filler addition, and also beerus was holding back and we do not know how much, as beerus would easily be heavily supressed. Whis stopping beerus(monaka outfit) vs goku battle again doesn't mean much as ss3 goku would be able to or close to destroy planet. Hell being around or barerly above kid buu you can destroy planets by clashing fists...At least buuhan would do that easily. Copy water arc is just filler, not planned by Akira so I am not sure if it holds any importance to canon.

No, they are not unless you can counter my arguments and prove otherwise

[DBZ Macky]

Why can't we just accept that characters get ridiculous power ups when plot calls for it? Beerus is a liar and his statements hold ZERO weight. Why can't we accept that Trunks is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, they're just 2 brats merged together with an outdated transformation. Remember when SSJ was a legendary transformation? Well, every other guy could surpass that level in literally the next arc. Why can't that be the case with Super Saiyan God? When you can accept Rageta as being stronger than SSJ3 Goku then what's stopping you from taking things at face value? There is absolutely nothing to contradict that.