Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Could it be that SSJG without the ritual is 10x weaker than SSJG with the ritual and SSJB is bringing out full SSJG power?

Nah they said that Super Saiyan Blue was stronger than Super Saiyan God and in the manga Goku was definitely stronger going from red to blue. Then again I might be reading your question wrong here.

Could Zalama be stronger than Omni-King since his dragon can grant ANY wish, including killing the Omni-King?

He wouldn't be stronger, they made a point of Zeno being above everyone even after they showed Zarama. Whether he could kill him due to his wish granting abilities I don't know, can Dragons choose to do things like that or do they have to be asked? Like the Genie in Aladdin.

Would you say Omni-King's attendants are stronger than Daishinkan and Whis?

Probably stronger than Whis. I don't know about the Daishinkan. Whis or Beerus never commented on the bodyguards like that so I'd guess no but they could be. Kibito was Supreme Kai's bodyguard but he wasn't very strong.

Could a hypothetical Kaioken x20 SSGSS Goku beat Beerus?

No because Toriyama intends for Beerus to stay stronger than Goku. At least for now regardless of what Goku does he's going to be weaker than Beerus because he's supposed to be.

Was Vegeta stronger than Goku at any point? Would you put him weaker than or equal to Goku currently?

In Super he became stronger after Bulma slapped him and arguably after the six months he had of training with Whis and Goku said he was maybe a little stronger but going by the scene not long after that where they were lifting weights just the same they were probably just equal.

They still appear to be equal aswell going by the fight in the Copy Water arc.

Do you believe Manga Trunks attained some advanced form of SSJ2 and that Rageta was a similar phenomenon?

Possibly, Vegeta's power shot through the roof when Bulma was slapped. Why couldn't Trunks' power have shot through the roof if he saw Bulma killed violently in front of his eyes? Then again it didn't happen that way in the anime and when Goku mentioned his power increase Trunks just said that it had been 10 years which perhaps implies he's had a lot of time to just train and get stronger.

But he shouldn't have the training options available to him like Goku so you'd think there was more to it. Maybe because he's half Saiyan? It could be anything.

How much difference in power would Daishinkan and Whis have?

That's impossible to say but usually a 20% difference is enough for one character to be able to stomp another. Zeno can destroy the entire multiverse if he wants to. Whis could probably destroy one universe, there's a huge gap for that Daishinkan to fit in between the two.

Do you think these are the top 5 fighters Whis was referring to

Nah there's gonna be some other characters involved in that which we haven't even seen yet, we certainly haven't seen the best the Multiverse has to offer this early on. Zeno and the Daishinkan are probably the only two in the Top 5 we've seen so far.

[Khin]

I'm going to give my two cents about the manga's power scaling and who's stronger than who. its kinda long but whatever.

Back in the Battle of Gods Arc, it was never shown or stated that Goku absorbed the Super Saiyan God power; contrary to the anime and movie version. Thus, i'm led to believe that Goku and Vegeta in the Tournament/Champa Arc are only God-Tier in their God forms. Perhaps this is the reason why Toriyama decided to retell the movies as Goku and Vegeta in the movies are way stronger than everyone else ? Theres no way Piccolo can compete in the Tournament without giving him a ridiculous boost. It might be also a problem in the future arcs as Toriyama needs to give ridiculous power boost to the characters he wants to be relevant in order for them to be on the same level as Goku and Vegeta. That's why Toyotaro and Toriyama took advantage of the retellings and decided to only have Goku in God-Tier in his God forms. Toei on the other hand messed up, probably because of its multiple writers and the amount of care they give about the power scaling; or probably because Toriyama wrote some confusing stuff in his outline.

Since the manga entirely skipped the Fukkatsu no 'F' Arc, we really don't know what exactly happened except both Goku and Vegeta defeated Freeza. Although there is a manga version of the movie, that was released even before Super was announced and is an adaption to the movie, not Super. It was also made before my speculation above about why Toriyama decided to retell the movies; so we can scrap that out. Hell, even if you consider the manga version of the movie as a part of the Super manga, you can just simply go with the theory that Goku learned to have the full access of the Super Saiyan God form while training in the Room of Spirit and Time, thus his ''Saiyan Beyond God'' state was replaced with the Red form.

With the Champa Arc, the most debated stuff in the anime is Piccolo and the power of Universe 6 participants. Piccolo was implied to be weaker than Mr. Boo but he put up a good fight against Frost, and some other things. It gets very confusing to the point that some people gave Piccolo a ridiculous boost and some went with the "Two Base Theory". However, there is literally 0 problems about the power of Piccolo and co. in the manga. As i said before, Goku was never implied to have absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God; so its highly possible that his Base is not that strong. Piccolo putting up a fight against Frost in the manga makes perfect sense considering Goku was never implied to have absorbed the God power. In the manga, Vegeta said that Cabba is "strong enough to hold his own" against him; implying Cabba is slightly inferior, contrary to the anime where Vegeta said they are equal. The anime had Goku use Kaio-ken, which creates confusion with the 10% line that Beerus had. However, Toyotaro have Goku use Super Saiyan God instead, which makes the power scaling more understandable. So Super Saiyan forms in the manga works like this:

Base --> Super Saiyan --> Super Saiyan 2 --> Super Saiyan 3 --> Super Saiyan God --> Super Saiyan Blue

Now with the Future Trunks Arc, we got an unexpected stuff: Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is more or less on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku. This led to many complaints, but i have two options how can this work out; thanks to some people.

Max Super Saiyan 2 Theory:

Back in the Battle of Gods Arc, Vegeta became much stronger and was even stated to have surpassed Goku in just his Super Saiyan 2 form (Though i can't remember if this was also stated in the manga), he did it through extreme anger. So perhaps Trunks achieved this power-up in his fight against Dabra, probably when Kaioshin died or some other scenarios and trained it so he can successfully use it anytime, while Vegeta focused on training his God power. This power-up afterall was implied to be stronger than the power of Super Saiyan 3 so maybe that's the reason why Super Saiyan 2 Trunks fought on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku even though Goku easily blocked his punch not too long ago; implying that Base Goku is stronger than Base Trunks. Trunks at that time just ate a senzu bean so you can't say he was not at full strength, and i don't think he will punch a guy whom he though is Black with not his all power.

Trunks just became ridiculously stronger through training alone:

Half-breed Saiyans was shown to have extreme potential throughout the series, but almost all of them doesn't have that much interest in fighting or training, except for Future Trunks who trained hard for 10 years. Even way back then, Trunks became over 50x stronger in just 3 years. He was so weak in his Super Saiyan form that even Base Future Gohan is stronger than him, but he surpassed Gohan in just 3 years, and Future Gohan himself said that Trunks will surpass him in a few months, another showing about his potential. The case with Goku is similar to the case with Tenshinhan. Tenshinhan trained hard for many years but he can't still surpass Kuririn, his training gains became smaller and smaller as he was closing to his limit. Many people complained about how Trunks became stronger than Goku who trained hard and also trained with Whis, RoSaT, and the otherworld. But Goku is not limitless, he was probably already reaching his limit in the Boo Arc, so his gains became smaller and smaller, he trained with Whis; but he probably didn't became way stronger, same with his training in the RoSaT. This actually ties with what Vegeta said in the anime about how him and Goku is already close to their limit that even if they train in the Room of Spirit and Time for 3 years, they won't became that much stronger. Future Trunks on the other hand has much higher potential/limit than Goku, that's why he became stronger than him, because Goku's gains became smaller, whereas his remains normal.

The theory above doesn't really explain how can Trunks, who is around 8x stronger than Goku if you by the theory was unable to even budge Goku when he punch him because he thought be was Black. So i'm gonna go with the "Max Super Saiyan 2 theory", for now.

To put it in a Power Level-like scale, i made a list below.

[spoiler]Goku/Vegeta: 200
-- SSJ: 10,000
-- SSJ2: 20,000
-- SSJ3: 80,000

Frost: 120
-- Assault Form: 200
-- Final Form: 7,500
-- Final Form (Tired): 5,000

Piccolo: 4,000

Cabba: 180
-- SSJ: 9,000

Magetta: 20,000

Future Trunks: 160
-- SSJ: 8,000
-- SSJ2: 16,000
-- Max SSJ2: 80,000

Black (Against Trunks): 100,000

For reference

Namek Freeza: 120
Perfect Cell: 4,000
Mr. Boo: 20,000[/spoiler]

That's all for now. I'm gonna post my own view and scale of the anime version and my thoughts about the "Two Base Theory" next time.

[TheMikado]

I'm going to give my two cents about the manga's power scaling and who's stronger than who. its kinda long but whatever.

Back in the Battle of Gods Arc, it was never shown or stated that Goku absorbed the Super Saiyan God power; contrary to the anime and movie version. Thus, i'm led to believe that Goku and Vegeta in the Tournament/Champa Arc are only God-Tier in their God forms. Perhaps this is the reason why Toriyama decided to retell the movies as Goku and Vegeta in the movies are way stronger than everyone else ? Theres no way Piccolo can compete in the Tournament without giving him a ridiculous boost. It might be also a problem in the future arcs as Toriyama needs to give ridiculous power boost to the characters he wants to be relevant in order for them to be on the same level as Goku and Vegeta. That's why Toyotaro and Toriyama took advantage of the retellings and decided to only have Goku in God-Tier in his God forms. Toei on the other hand messed up, probably because of its multiple writers and the amount of care they give about the power scaling; or probably because Toriyama wrote some confusing stuff in his outline.

Since the manga entirely skipped the Fukkatsu no 'F' Arc, we really don't know what exactly happened except both Goku and Vegeta defeated Freeza. Although there is a manga version of the movie, that was released even before Super was announced and is an adaption to the movie, not Super. It was also made before my speculation above about why Toriyama decided to retell the movies; so we can scrap that out. Hell, even if you consider the manga version of the movie as a part of the Super manga, you can just simply go with the theory that Goku learned to have the full access of the Super Saiyan God form while training in the Room of Spirit and Time, thus his ''Saiyan Beyond God'' state was replaced with the Red form.

With the Champa Arc, the most debated stuff in the anime is Piccolo and the power of Universe 6 participants. Piccolo was implied to be weaker than Mr. Boo but he put up a good fight against Frost, and some other things. It gets very confusing to the point that some people gave Piccolo a ridiculous boost and some went with the "Two Base Theory". However, there is literally 0 problems about the power of Piccolo and co. in the manga. As i said before, Goku was never implied to have absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God; so its highly possible that his Base is not that strong. Piccolo putting up a fight against Frost in the manga makes perfect sense considering Goku was never implied to have absorbed the God power. In the manga, Vegeta said that Cabba is "strong enough to hold his own" against him; implying Cabba is slightly inferior, contrary to the anime where Vegeta said they are equal. The anime had Goku use Kaio-ken, which creates confusion with the 10% line that Beerus had. However, Toyotaro have Goku use Super Saiyan God instead, which makes the power scaling more understandable. So Super Saiyan forms in the manga works like this:

Base --> Super Saiyan --> Super Saiyan 2 --> Super Saiyan 3 --> Super Saiyan God --> Super Saiyan Blue

Now with the Future Trunks Arc, we got an unexpected stuff: Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is more or less on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku. This led to many complaints, but i have two options how can this work out; thanks to some people.

Max Super Saiyan 2 Theory:

Back in the Battle of Gods Arc, Vegeta became much stronger and was even stated to have surpassed Goku in just his Super Saiyan 2 form (Though i can't remember if this was also stated in the manga), he did it through extreme anger. So perhaps Trunks achieved this power-up in his fight against Dabra, probably when Kaioshin died or some other scenarios and trained it so he can successfully use it anytime, while Vegeta focused on training his God power. This power-up afterall was implied to be stronger than the power of Super Saiyan 3 so maybe that's the reason why Super Saiyan 2 Trunks fought on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku even though Goku easily blocked his punch not too long ago; implying that Base Goku is stronger than Base Trunks. Trunks at that time just ate a senzu bean so you can't say he was not at full strength, and i don't think he will punch a guy whom he though is Black with not his all power.

Trunks just became ridiculously stronger through training alone:

Half-breed Saiyans was shown to have extreme potential throughout the series, but almost all of them doesn't have that much interest in fighting or training, except for Future Trunks who trained hard for 10 years. Even way back then, Trunks became over 50x stronger in just 3 years. He was so weak in his Super Saiyan form that even Base Future Gohan is stronger than him, but he surpassed Gohan in just 3 years, and Future Gohan himself said that Trunks will surpass him in a few months, another showing about his potential. The case with Goku is similar to the case with Tenshinhan. Tenshinhan trained hard for many years but he can't still surpass Kuririn, his training gains became smaller and smaller as he was closing to his limit. Many people complained about how Trunks became stronger than Goku who trained hard and also trained with Whis, RoSaT, and the otherworld. But Goku is not limitless, he was probably already reaching his limit in the Boo Arc, so his gains became smaller and smaller, he trained with Whis; but he probably didn't became way stronger, same with his training in the RoSaT. This actually ties with what Vegeta said in the anime about how him and Goku is already close to their limit that even if they train in the Room of Spirit and Time for 3 years, they won't became that much stronger. Future Trunks on the other hand has much higher potential/limit than Goku, that's why he became stronger than him, because Goku's gains became smaller, whereas his remains normal.

The theory above doesn't really explain how can Trunks, who is around 8x stronger than Goku if you by the theory was unable to even budge Goku when he punch him because he thought be was Black. So i'm gonna go with the "Max Super Saiyan 2 theory", for now.

To put it in a Power Level-like scale, i made a list below.

[spoiler]Goku/Vegeta: 200
-- SSJ: 10,000
-- SSJ2: 20,000
-- SSJ3: 80,000

Frost: 120
-- Assault Form: 200
-- Final Form: 7,500
-- Final Form (Tired): 5,000

Piccolo: 4,000

Cabba: 180
-- SSJ: 9,000

Magetta: 20,000

Future Trunks: 160
-- SSJ: 8,000
-- SSJ2: 16,000
-- Max SSJ2: 80,000

Black (Against Trunks): 100,000

For reference

Namek Freeza: 120
Perfect Cell: 4,000
Mr. Boo: 20,000[/spoiler]

That's all for now. I'm gonna post my own view and scale of the anime version and my thoughts about the "Two Base Theory" next time.

This is the exact theories that have been posted earlier, I think most people who follow the manga also believe this, especially the Toei messing up part and changing the power scaling and forms to fit a serialized format. It's super weird because people keep saying the movies are current canon despite being written years ago NOT for a serialized format.

The issue right now is that this is not how the anime is written and we have those who think the anime is wrong versus those who think manga is wrong. That's basically what everyone is fighting about and trying to reconcile.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Latest list (no Goku Black, since we don't know his full power yet):

Zenno
Grand Priest
Zenno's Guard #1 | Zenno's Guard #2
Vados | Whis
Beerus | Champa
Golden Freeza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan God Goku
God Base Goku | God Base Vegeta
Final Form Freeza
Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto
Super Saiyan Vegetto
Freeza
Vegetto
Gohan Boo
Ultimate Gohan
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan Gohan
Super Saiyan 2 Full Power Vegeta
Super Saiyan 2 Full Power Future Trunks | Super Saiyan 3 Goku | Super Saiyan Gotenks
Majin Boo
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks | Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan | Super Perfect Cell
Magetta
Super Saiyan Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Super Saiyan Cabba
Final Form Frost
Gohan
Piccolo
Super Saiyan Goten | Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku
Mecha Freeza
Gotenks
Goku | Vegeta | Future Trunks
Assault Form Frost
Cabba
Goten | Trunks
Frost
Botamo
Kuririn
Tenshinhan
Yamcha
Chaozu
Oozaru Vegeta
Piccolo Daimao
Max Power Kame-sennin
Jaco
Kame-sennin
Mr. Satan

[ssbgoku]

Latest list (no Goku Black, since we don't know his full power yet):

Zenno
Grand Priest
Zenno's Guard #1 | Zenno's Guard #2
Vados | Whis
Beerus | Champa
Golden Freeza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan God Goku
God Base Goku | God Base Vegeta
Final Form Freeza
Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto
Super Saiyan Vegetto
Freeza
Vegetto
Gohan Boo
Ultimate Gohan
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan Gohan
Super Saiyan 2 Full Power Vegeta
Super Saiyan 2 Full Power Future Trunks | Super Saiyan 3 Goku | Super Saiyan Gotenks
Majin Boo
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks | Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan | Super Perfect Cell
Magetta
Super Saiyan Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Super Saiyan Cabba
Final Form Frost
Gohan
Piccolo
Super Saiyan Goten | Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku
Mecha Freeza
Gotenks
Goku | Vegeta | Future Trunks
Assault Form Frost
Cabba
Goten | Trunks
Frost
Botamo
Kuririn
Tenshinhan
Yamcha
Chaozu
Oozaru Vegeta
Piccolo Daimao
Max Power Kame-sennin
Jaco
Kame-sennin
Mr. Satan

Great and wow so many characters, Here go mine issues with your list:

1) Current ssb goku/vegeta is above golden frieeza
2) SS Vegetto being below ff frieza makes no sense to me, not even mentoning ss3 vegetto. However I understand it comes from god base for goku and vegeta which I find wrong and explained it many times already over and over
3) No God base goku or vegeta
4) Super Saiyan gohan is too high, as he would be barerly above super perfect cell especially for rof, unless you think training with picoolo made difference such big.

here I will try mine:

Zenno
Zenno's Guard #1 | Zenno's Guard #2
Grand Priest
Vados | Whis
Beerus | Champa
Golden Freeza | Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan God Goku
Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto
Super Saiyan Vegetto
Final Form Freeza(very close to ss vegetto bog arc, possibly above buu arc ss vegetto)
base Vegetto
Gohan Boo
Ultimate Gohan
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
First form Freeza
Super Saiyan 2 Full Power Vegeta
Super Saiyan 2 Full Power Future Trunks | Super Saiyan 3 Goku | Super Saiyan Gotenks
Super Saiyan Gohan
Majin Boo
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks | Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan | Super Perfect Cell
Magetta
Super Saiyan Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Super Saiyan Cabba
Final Form Frost
Gohan
Piccolo
Super Saiyan Goten | Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku
Mecha Freeza
Gotenks
Goku | Vegeta | Future Trunks
Assault Form Frost
Cabba
Goten | Trunks
Frost
Botamo
Kuririn
Tenshinhan
Yamcha
Chaozu
Oozaru Vegeta
Piccolo Daimao
Max Power Kame-sennin
Jaco
Kame-sennin
Mr. Satan

so this is mine .

[Noah]

Super Saiyan Vegetto
Freeza
Vegetto
Gohan Boo
Ultimate Gohan

First Form Freeza (RoF) being above Base Vegetto which is not a problem, but he's above Super Boo-han in that list? You cannot be serious, if you're considering anime filler then you should put Gotenks bellow Trunks.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Forgot to add Sorbet, Tagoma, and Shisami (why can't I edit my previous post?!):
[spoiler]Zenno
Grand Priest
Zenno's Guard #1 | Zenno's Guard #2
Vados | Whis
Beerus | Champa
Golden Freeza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan God Goku
God Base Goku | God Base Vegeta
Final Form Freeza
Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto
Super Saiyan Vegetto
Freeza
Vegetto
Gohan Boo
Ultimate Gohan
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan Gohan
Super Saiyan 2 Full Power Vegeta
Super Saiyan 2 Full Power Future Trunks | Super Saiyan 3 Goku | Super Saiyan Gotenks
Majin Boo
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks | Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan | Super Perfect Cell
Magetta
Super Saiyan Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Super Saiyan Cabba
Final Form Frost
Gohan
Shisami
Piccolo
Super Saiyan Goten | Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku
Mecha Freeza
Gotenks
Goku | Vegeta | Future Trunks
Assault Form Frost
Cabba
Goten | Trunks
Frost
Botamo
Kuririn
Tenshinhan
Yamcha
Chaozu
Oozaru Vegeta
Tagoma
Piccolo Daimao
Max Power Kame-sennin
Jaco
Kame-sennin
Mr. Satan
Sorbet[/spoiler]

1) Current ssb goku/vegeta is above golden frieeza

We haven't been told that they have surpassed Freeza, and they have reached their limits since Boo arc so they don't get significant increases through training anymore (it was stated in Super as well). Not saying that it's impossible for them to be above Freeza at this point, but until we get confirmation, I'll assume that they are still below Freeza, but I think they are close to him.

2) SS Vegetto being below ff frieza makes no sense to me, not even mentoning ss3 vegetto. However I understand it comes from god base for goku and vegeta which I find wrong and explained it many times already over and over
3) No God base goku or vegeta

Forgot to mention, I only take into account the original manga, DBZ: Battle of Gods, DBZ: Resurrection "F", Dragon Ball Super manga (chapters 5+), and the anime from the point it goes beyond the manga at the moment. So, I use the 2-base theory to connect the movies with the manga.

4) Super Saiyan gohan is too high, as he would be barerly above super perfect cell especially for rof, unless you think training with picoolo made difference such big.

I disregard his training with Piccolo as it never happened in the manga, so he is still at the same level as in FnF. In FnF, base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo, meaning that he hasn't lost all of his Ultimate powers, and SS makes him 50 times stronger, but still weaker than Ultimate. So, I believe that SS Gohan is very strong, and not in normal SS levels. Unless if I missed something that puts him below the level I have him?

First Form Freeza (RoF) being above Base Vegetto which is not a problem, but he's above Super Boo-han in that list? You cannot be serious, if you're considering anime filler then you should put Gotenks bellow Trunks.

What's your problem with 1st Form Freeza being stronger than Gohan Boo? Also, I disregard the anime, except for the episodes that are ahead from the manga for the time being.

[Darkron2151]

Forgot to add Sorbet, Tagoma, and Shisami (why can't I edit my previous post?!):
[spoiler]Zenno
Grand Priest
Zenno's Guard #1 | Zenno's Guard #2
Vados | Whis
Beerus | Champa
Golden Freeza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan God Goku
God Base Goku | God Base Vegeta
Final Form Freeza
Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto
Super Saiyan Vegetto
Freeza
Vegetto
Gohan Boo
Ultimate Gohan
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan Gohan
Super Saiyan 2 Full Power Vegeta
Super Saiyan 2 Full Power Future Trunks | Super Saiyan 3 Goku | Super Saiyan Gotenks
Majin Boo
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks | Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan | Super Perfect Cell
Magetta
Super Saiyan Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Super Saiyan Cabba
Final Form Frost
Gohan
Shisami
Piccolo
Super Saiyan Goten | Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku
Mecha Freeza
Gotenks
Goku | Vegeta | Future Trunks
Assault Form Frost
Cabba
Goten | Trunks
Frost
Botamo
Kuririn
Tenshinhan
Yamcha
Chaozu
Oozaru Vegeta
Tagoma
Piccolo Daimao
Max Power Kame-sennin
Jaco
Kame-sennin
Mr. Satan
Sorbet[/spoiler]

Why in particular do you have ROF Gohan being so strong (as he's seemingly only depicted that way in the anime)? Nothing wrong with it at all, was just curious since the movies/manga weren't too specific on Gohan's power (all that's shown is 1st Form Freeza > SSJ Gohan > Shisami > Piccolo). Most see Gohan as being more in his Buu-arc levels of power w/o his Ultimate state with what's shown. It's only in the anime where his power is depicted as being significantly greater than that (ROF Base > ROF Piccolo, Super Saiyan > Every other Z Fighter other than Goku/Vegeta, etc.).

[ssbgoku]

Forgot to add Sorbet, Tagoma, and Shisami (why can't I edit my previous post?!):
[spoiler]Zenno
Grand Priest
Zenno's Guard #1 | Zenno's Guard #2
Vados | Whis
Beerus | Champa
Golden Freeza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan God Goku
God Base Goku | God Base Vegeta
Final Form Freeza
Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto
Super Saiyan Vegetto
Freeza
Vegetto
Gohan Boo
Ultimate Gohan
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan Gohan
Super Saiyan 2 Full Power Vegeta
Super Saiyan 2 Full Power Future Trunks | Super Saiyan 3 Goku | Super Saiyan Gotenks
Majin Boo
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks | Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan | Super Perfect Cell
Magetta
Super Saiyan Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Super Saiyan Cabba
Final Form Frost
Gohan
Shisami
Piccolo
Super Saiyan Goten | Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku
Mecha Freeza
Gotenks
Goku | Vegeta | Future Trunks
Assault Form Frost
Cabba
Goten | Trunks
Frost
Botamo
Kuririn
Tenshinhan
Yamcha
Chaozu
Oozaru Vegeta
Tagoma
Piccolo Daimao
Max Power Kame-sennin
Jaco
Kame-sennin
Mr. Satan
Sorbet[/spoiler]

1) Current ssb goku/vegeta is above golden frieeza

We haven't been told that they have surpassed Freeza, and they have reached their limits since Boo arc so they don't get significant increases through training anymore (it was stated in Super as well). Not saying that it's impossible for them to be above Freeza at this point, but until we get confirmation, I'll assume that they are still below Freeza, but I think they are close to him.

2) SS Vegetto being below ff frieza makes no sense to me, not even mentoning ss3 vegetto. However I understand it comes from god base for goku and vegeta which I find wrong and explained it many times already over and over
3) No God base goku or vegeta

Forgot to mention, I only take into account the original manga, DBZ: Battle of Gods, DBZ: Resurrection "F", Dragon Ball Super manga (chapters 5+), and the anime from the point it goes beyond the manga at the moment. So, I use the 2-base theory to connect the movies with the manga.

4) Super Saiyan gohan is too high, as he would be barerly above super perfect cell especially for rof, unless you think training with picoolo made difference such big.

I disregard his training with Piccolo as it never happened in the manga, so he is still at the same level as in FnF. In FnF, base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo, meaning that he hasn't lost all of his Ultimate powers, and SS makes him 50 times stronger, but still weaker than Ultimate. So, I believe that SS Gohan is very strong, and not in normal SS levels. Unless if I missed something that puts him below the level I have him?

First Form Freeza (RoF) being above Base Vegetto which is not a problem, but he's above Super Boo-han in that list? You cannot be serious, if you're considering anime filler then you should put Gotenks bellow Trunks.

What's your problem with 1st Form Freeza being stronger than Gohan Boo? Also, I disregard the anime, except for the episodes that are ahead from the manga for the time being.

1) Well you can simply go by common logic/mechanism of plot which means main or even just relevant characters are getting stronger in new arc then the last villain in previous arc. Also They seemed to be close to each other, I mean ssb and golden frieeza. Just then see they have trained for 3 days in rosat and they were impressed by their progress even although they were supposed to be at limit. Well after fighting/combating with participants from u6 in universe 6 arc, they should get stronger by fighing alone which is Saiyan trait.

2) Well sure, that ok. I also have buu arc base vegetto below even buu arc ultimate gohan or at the most slightly above him. However I didn't support two base theory which in my mind is needless as there is no super god level base for goku and vegeta. Also statement about goku absorbing goodhood and not needed to tranform in ssg, seems to be taken out of context and misunderstood. That why later goku being impressed with vegeta, who felt different and catched up with beerus made people think that both goku and vegeta are god level in base. Later whis mentioned they improved vastly so well people guessed they could be stronger in ssg in base. However here are hints/statements which prove otherwise or at least throw wrench in two base theory:

- Oracle fish mentioned of super Saiyan transformation and making both goku and vegeta much more stronger, which means x50 multpilier would be still correct.(ssgx50) and still being below beerus sound ridiculous. especially after kkx10 ssb bullshit and more confused part.

- Whis stating that both goku and vegeta are only tree in compare to castle(beerus). Also Goku and Vegeta right away refused to fight beerus when he asked them to confront him.

- King Kai calling goku for finally regaining god status and divine ki by turning in ssb which was clear refference to ssg achieved in bog arc.

- Majin buu being relevant against first form frieeza and z team being disappointed and concerned with lack of buu on their side.

3) see explenation above.

4) Well if you disregard gohan's training with Picoolo then I dont' see him being even much more stronger then Majin buu, honestly either on par with him or close to him.
Picoolo would also get weaker in time of peace and being turned into babysitter for Pan. Also big loss of muscles in gohan's case and it is even siginificant in drawing of dragon ball super where characters are generally slimmer then they would be normally. Gohan being uncertain if he can turn into ss and weak performance well I think it just hints to gohan being infferior to even his teen ssj2 which would make him around buu arc ss gohan and buu arc ss2 gohan(before z sword).

whis
beerus
golden frieeza
ssb goku/vegeta
ss vegetto
buutenks buuhan
Final form frieeza
super buu
base goku/vegeta
(Enraged) Majin Buu
Majin Buu
First form Frieeza
ss gohan
Picoolo without cape and weights
base gohan
Picoolo with cape and weights

[RandomGuy96]

Wait, did the two-base theory just get a big boost of evidence? Seems everyone is subscribing to it now.

[Lord Beerus]

Wait, did the two-base theory just get a big boost of evidence? Seems everyone is subscribing to it now.

The two base theory is pretty much the only way to make sense the power scaling in the manga or anime. SSJ2 Future Trunks being as strong as SSJ3 Goku fucked up everything. Now power scaling for Super as a whole (anime and manga) is a big fat mess.

[dbzfan7]

Pan below base trunks? And you forgot gohan.
Other than that, pretty perfect list.

I didn't forget anyone? What do you mean? Who is that weird person you're suggesting I forgot? I don't think they exist.

[Chiki]

[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

I never said they need. Strawman fallacy again. It happens that Regular Goku has black hair, and Saiyan Beyond God too.

Oh really? You made it very clear that it was needed in this post:

No, as you said previously, the two-base theory refers to black-haired Goku having two different powerlevels, not two different forms.

"As you said previously" but I never said that. Isn't what you're doing the straw man fallacy? I never said that the two base theory refers to black haired Goku (well, perhaps I said an older version of the theory does).

The language you use makes it very clear that you think black hair Goku = base:

We have been calling the regular black-haired Goku "base", because he has transformations. It's an obvious fact.

This definition entails that you think Base and SBG Goku can be the only two bases for the two base theory since you only call black hair Goku base.

I'm not making any straw man fallacies here, but maybe you are.[/spoiler]

You don't seem to be understanding the confusion you are doing here.

First, I never made any clear the two bases we are talking about here need black hair, they both just happen to have black hair. They don't need, they have. That's why I pointed a strawman fallacy.

Second, you didn't understand what I said there. You said previously the "two base" theory referred to powerlevels rather than appearance. Okay. Then, I assumed you were talking about the regular black-haired Goku we all know, because honestly what else could he be? After that, we started a debate concerning if Saiyan Beyond God is a base or a transformation and I concluded that you can reconcile the two definitions as long as they can't cohexist.

Third, I do think Base Goku has black hair. Does anyone else here think he doesn't?

Fourth, the obvious fact I said is that if Goku didn't have transformations, he couldn't have a base. And if Goku has transformations, he has a base.

Finally, are you implying Base and SBG Goku are not the only two bases of the theory? What are you talking about? Mikado?[/spoiler]

I think there's a language barrier between our posts here. This is what makes me think so:

You said previously the "two base" theory referred to powerlevels rather than appearance. Okay. Then, I assumed you were talking about the regular black-haired Goku we all know, because honestly what else could he be?

? What I clearly meant that bases have nothing to do with black-hair or red-hair or appearance of any kind, therefore I wasn't talking about regular black-haired Goku or any haired Goku. I was simply talking about Goku's power level while ignoring his appearance. I think it was fairly obvious from the way I worded what I said.

Third, I do think Base Goku has black hair. Does anyone else here think he doesn't?

No, the question is whether a Base necessarily (in every possible world) must involve Goku with his natural hair color, which is black.

I say no. I think Goku's bases can be Oozaru or SSG.

Fourth, the obvious fact I said is that if Goku didn't have transformations, he couldn't have a base. And if Goku has transformations, he has a base.

That's not true. Again, I'd say it's trivially true (we had an argument about this before) that Raditz has a Base, it's just his usual form.

It's like saying that it is trivially true that Barack Obama is 4 feet tall. You might say it's false to say that Obama is 4 feet tall, but it literally IS TRUE.

It's a common linguistic intuition to say it's false that Barack Obama is 4 feet tall, but it's literally true since he is more than 4 feet tall.

Wait, did the two-base theory just get a big boost of evidence? Seems everyone is subscribing to it now.

Yeah, pretty much everyone who discusses power levels regularly accepts the two base theory now, except obviously Bullza and HeroR. Since the two base theory was confirmed in the manga it's been rather obvious.

[HeroR]

Damn... why I am seeing it again ?, why can't people just understand that neither base goku or vegeta are at ssg level, hell they are not even close to it. U6 fighters are top tiers buu arc at the best, nothing else. The way beerus is treating goku(base) I can see base goku being weak and insignificant to god level, but beerus knows that goku has transformations and they can change this matter.

In the manga, the latest chapter it was pointed out specifically that neither goku or vegeta are not even close to beerus. Hell, even beerus didn't comment on ssg goku in u6 being any stronger then ssg goku against beerus, which shows raise of power and improvement over base form may be really small.

In the anime, Goku is still treated casually and Trunks isn't even close to ssg, as beerus was never that impressed with him at all. Berus calling Trunks pretty good just shows trunks at his absolute maximum make him enraged ss2 vegeta from bog arc and most likely higher.

base Goku/vegeta -1
Ss goku/vegeta - 50
ss2 goku/vegeta - 100
ss3 goku - 400
ssg goku - 6000
ssb goku/vegeta - 7000-8000
beerus - 10 000

Well that it. Also please give me break with kaiokenx10 ssb bullshit, extra addition

In the anime it has been shown several times that Goku's base and Super Saiyan forms are on par with Super Saiyan God.

First, Goku was able to fight Beerus first as a Super Saiyan and then in his base form after losing Super Saiyan God. This is after Beerus two-shotted Super Saiyan 3 Goku and dismissed Ultimate Gohan.

Second, Freeza in his weakest form killed Piccolo with one Death Beam and put holes through Super Saiyan Gohan whose power is almost on par with Ultimate Gohan. Goku comes and is able to fight Freeza in his final form.

Third, Goku is able to fight Beerus when he's in his Monaka outfit. Although Beerus was held back, both Goku and Beerus put some much forced into their spar that Whis had to stop the fight before they blew up the planet. And later, we see Copy-Vegeta no sells Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks' attacks in his base form, and then Goku comes and easily catches Copy-Vegeta's fist.

So in the anime, Goku and Vegeta are Super Saiyan Gods in their base or at least their Super Saiyan forms.

Ok, let's see:

1) Means nothing, as he was still using ssg power internally while using ss outside of his body. It just shows that ss allowed goku to extend span of time while he could preserve ssg power(forced it to stay within him internally and delaying it's fadding away process). Base goku being abe to destroy beerus attack was just matter of will and also last burst of ssg fading away power to use it all at once. Literally what Akira meant by goku absorbing goodhood in himself was goku being able to use divine ki once he learns to call it back(whis's training was needed and resulted in ssb). This was only cofirmed by King Kai mentioning goku managed to become god again after turning into ssb.

2) Sure, fireeza have done this, but I disagree with ss gohan being any close to ultimate gohan as nothing points to such conclusion. Hell Gohan admiting to not train and not be certain to turn into ss makes it clear as day that gohan just got weaker if not much weaker then buu arc ultimate self. Gohan loosing muscles, neglecting training just further hints gohan was weaker. Also Majin buu being brought up for safety case shows that gohan was at the most barerly above him, which means ss gohan ~ fat buu(enraged Mr buu). Honestly I believe not even first form frieeza could beat fat buu... However Final form frieza should be at least around buutenks at least.

3) Again, filler addition, and also beerus was holding back and we do not know how much, as beerus would easily be heavily supressed. Whis stopping beerus(monaka outfit) vs goku battle again doesn't mean much as ss3 goku would be able to or close to destroy planet. Hell being around or barerly above kid buu you can destroy planets by clashing fists...At least buuhan would do that easily. Copy water arc is just filler, not planned by Akira so I am not sure if it holds any importance to canon.

No, they are not unless you can counter my arguments and prove otherwise

King King said that Goku became a Super Saiyan God again. Which is true because Goku did lose Super Saiyan God during his fight with Beerus. Howeve, his power didn't drop. He was still able to fight Beerus without even realizing that he lost his transformation. Beerus had to tell him. So this isn't a matter of Goku willing himself to keep the power since he didn't even noticed he wasn't transformed anymore.

Gohan in his base was still stronger tha Piccolo, who is at least up to par with Semi-Perfect Cell. According to Beerus, Goku's base form was still weaker than full power Freeza. Meaning that Gohan's base alone was up there with Perfect Cell. Keep in mind that Gohan originally had to be a Super Saiyan 2 to surpass Cell. So Super Saiyan Gohan's power is within range of his Ultimate power. Gohan even said as much before he transformed. Also, they wanted Buu because Buu is the second strongest person, if we don't count Gotenks. He would be more usefully than Piccolo or any of the other human characters.

There is no filler in the anime, at least not in the way it was in the original series. The anime is not buying time for the manga or another source to catch up nor do you have Toriyama's script to do a compare and contrast. So you can't discount something as filler and not counting. Also, Goku put up a fight against Beerus in the Monaka outfit, while Super Saiyan 3 Goku couldn't even touch Beerus who was trying even less. Also, Whis wouldn't have to intervene if Beerus could just knock Goku out in one-shot at any time he wanted.

[RandomGuy96]

Wait, did the two-base theory just get a big boost of evidence? Seems everyone is subscribing to it now.

The two base theory is pretty much the only way to make sense the power scaling in the manga or anime. SSJ2 Future Trunks being as strong as SSJ3 Goku fucked up everything. Now power scaling for Super as a whole (anime and manga) is a big fat mess.

Wut. Explain.

Since the two base theory was confirmed in the manga it's been rather obvious.

Wut. Explain.

[Hugo Boss]

I think Goku's bases can be Oozaru or SSG.

So, do you think "base" actually can be any form? Explain this.

Wait, did the two-base theory just get a big boost of evidence? Seems everyone is subscribing to it now.

Yeah, pretty much everyone who discusses power levels regularly accepts the two base theory now, except obviously Bullza and HeroR. Since the two base theory was confirmed in the manga it's been rather obvious.

As far as I'm aware, I'm one of the people who doesn't subscribe to the theory. I don't think Super Saiyan God is Goku's second base.

Finally, are you implying Base and SBG Goku are not the only two bases of the theory? What are you talking about? Mikado?

I have no idea what is happening in here or why my name was brought up, but I'll do my best to reply.

I'm questioning if Base and Saiyan Beyond God are or aren't the only two bases of the theory. I can see what Super Saiyan God from manga has to do with this, though I don't agree with this paralelism. Still, your explanation is different from Chiki's, his criteria for deciding which form of Goku is his base seems quite confusing.

[Chiki]

So, do you think "base" actually can be any form? Explain this.

It's very simple if you understand it and not confusing at all.. It follows straightforwardly from my definition of a Base being a non-Super Saiyan form. Goku's natural form is a Base, Goku's Oozaru is a Base, SSG is a Base.

A Base is just something that you combine with to get a Super Saiyan form. In other words, a Base is nothing more than a non-Super Saiyan form.

Goku's normal Base = 0
Goku's SSG Base = SSG
Goku's Oozaru Base = Oozaru

0 + SS = SS (trivial)
SS + SSG = SSB
Oozaru + SS = SS4

Raditz has a base because he can transform into Oozaru. Kuririn doesn't have a base because he can't transform.

Distinguish between the natural base (Kuririn's normal form and Raditz's normal form) which is what you keep calling "Base," and "bases." It's like distinguishing between "the acid," hydrochloric acid which is important for humans, and other kinds of acids, like sulphuric acid.

I don't think Super Saiyan God is Goku's second base.

Then you're mistaken. Even if you don't think so, you can still subscribe to the two base theory, since the two base theory I attempted to use for the anime has the EXACT SAME power levels as I predicted in the manga, apart from Trunks. That can't just be a coincidence. The predictions of my two base theory were all true apart from Trunks which I never even denied the possibility of.

[TheMikado]

Chiki is retroactively applying the name "base" to SSG in order to make himself 100% correct in the past. 50% correct is just fine too.

The reason the theory exists is because applying two bases is the only way to make the manga and anime "sync" up. In the manga, all SSJ forms are below SSG currently, while in the anime it appears all forms are above SSG. If we applied the "two base theory" where Goku and Vegeta infused their bases with God Ki against Frieza and SSJ3 Gotenks while they didn't do it while in the Champa arc then suddenly all the power levels are suddenly in the same realm across all media. Basically it makes everything across all media be able to somewhat sync.

[Bullza]

Wait, did the two-base theory just get a big boost of evidence? Seems everyone is subscribing to it now.

No it seems now as though in the manga Goku really didn't absorb the power of SSJG after all so his Base and Super Saiyan forms are the same as they always were and he can still also transform into SSJG at will.

In the anime, like in the movie, Goku did absorb the power of SSJG which is why he doesn't transform into SSJG and his Base and Super Saiyan forms are more powerful than before.

So in the manga Base Goku should be weaker than Namek Frieza and in the anime Base Goku is stronger than Resurrected Frieza. It's just one base in each version but they just greatly differ between versions.

Which also means that Trunks, Cabba, Magetta, Frost, Hit and probably Beerus and the others are at a drastically lower level of power when compared to the anime.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't think Super Saiyan God is Goku's second base.

Then you're mistaken. Even if you don't think so, you can still subscribe to the two base theory, since the two base theory I attempted to use for the anime has the EXACT SAME power levels as I predicted in the manga, apart from Trunks. That can't just be a coincidence. The predictions of my two base theory were all true apart from Trunks which I never even denied the possibility of.

No, I'm done here. I'm suspecting I lack what it takes to understand your definition of "base". I think Super Saiyan God is just one more of Goku's transformations, that's what I chose to go by. You have the right to disagree.

The reason the theory exists is because applying two bases is the only way to make the manga and anime "sync" up. [...] Basically it makes everything across all media be able to somewhat sync.

Fine, but do the manga, the anime or some other media need to sync up? Why not accept the events can be told in their own way? Anime and manga have already contradict themselves in the past.