Understanding Kaioshin's connection to Beerus (Super spoilers)

[Kishido]

It makes no sense... Where is the tree always giving birth to a new Kaioshin?

What about the fact that actually nothing happens to Kaioshins if they are killed... But this was already a plot hole during Z. Elder Kai and NOrther Kai just got a halo and that's it... So why should Beerus be different? Same goes for the Kais killed by Buu in the past.

And why does U7 so much Kaioshins and even and Dai Kaioshin and U10 for example not?

[GodKaio-Ken]

I agree with Kaboom.
As for the reason for this connection, balance I guess. You can't have too much destruction neither too much creation, it works as a fail-safe device.

Currently, Hakaishins are nominated and Kaioshins should be born from the tree but it seems that has been retconned. There might be a possibility that it would be hard and long to replace the Gods. Better safe than sorry. It's not like the Omni-King respects them enough to care about their lives, he's like the Big Boss of a major corporation.

I don't think its a retcon so much....I mean the universe is basically a figment of Zenos imagination more or less so for all we know he can bind anyone at any time he wants.

[LightBing]

I agree with Kaboom.
As for the reason for this connection, balance I guess. You can't have too much destruction neither too much creation, it works as a fail-safe device.

Currently, Hakaishins are nominated and Kaioshins should be born from the tree but it seems that has been retconned. There might be a possibility that it would be hard and long to replace the Gods. Better safe than sorry. It's not like the Omni-King respects them enough to care about their lives, he's like the Big Boss of a major corporation.

I don't think its a retcon so much....I mean the universe is basically a figment of Zenos imagination more or less so for all we know he can bind anyone at any time he wants.

It's retcon to the information Mr.Toriyama provided in a interview(guide?).
In-universe it's not. We never got an origin story to the Kaioshins, we've never seen the World Tree in the manga. For all we know Kaioshins might all be Kais who were promoted like Zamasu.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I agree with Kaboom.
As for the reason for this connection, balance I guess. You can't have too much destruction neither too much creation, it works as a fail-safe device.

Currently, Hakaishins are nominated and Kaioshins should be born from the tree but it seems that has been retconned. There might be a possibility that it would be hard and long to replace the Gods. Better safe than sorry. It's not like the Omni-King respects them enough to care about their lives, he's like the Big Boss of a major corporation.

I don't think its a retcon so much....I mean the universe is basically a figment of Zenos imagination more or less so for all we know he can bind anyone at any time he wants.

It's retcon to the information Mr.Toriyama provided in a interview(guide?).
In-universe it's not. We never got an origin story to the Kaioshins, we've never seen the World Tree in the manga. For all we know Kaioshins might all be Kais who were promoted like Zamasu.

I don't see how it contradicts. Kaioshin can be born from the tree just as stated,I imagine Zamasu as a Kaio who was an exception and surpassed his birth status.

Then again it also could be a retcon of the whole idea and probably is...just saying it doesn't have to be. Beerus being tied doesn't really impact it..just the promotion of Zamasu.

[Tectorman]

It makes no sense... Where is the tree always giving birth to a new Kaioshin?

What about the fact that actually nothing happens to Kaioshins if they are killed... But this was already a plot hole during Z. Elder Kai and NOrther Kai just got a halo and that's it... So why should Beerus be different? Same goes for the Kais killed by Buu in the past.

And why does U7 so much Kaioshins and even and Dai Kaioshin and U10 for example not?

As far as I could tell, the Elder Supreme Kai dying did have consequences. Being a dead person, he was then denied the ability to go to the world of the living unless he used his one day (which, presumably, he used to go with Kibitokai and Dende to Namek).

True, being mostly a mentor figure to Kibitokai, being dead wouldn't really have impacted the Elder Supreme Kai all that much. Beerus would be another story, though. From what we've seen, his job entails deciding which planets are to be destroyed, and his decision-making process involves actually going there and investigating the planets and any civilizations that may live there. Even if Beerus were dead, he could probably still blast any planet in the universe to pieces from his home planet. But it would just be guesswork whether the planets have it coming, since he can no longer go there and interact with the inhabitants.

That said, the fact that the Elder Supreme Kai was able to give up his life for Goku the way he did raises the possibility of Beerus not being as vulnerable as it seems. If all the Supreme Kais died, he would die, too. But if two other highly placed figures (Whis and maybe the Grand Kai, for example) were to give their lives, one for one of the Supreme Kais, the other for Beerus, that would then solve the problem.

And it might not even require two lives. Back in the Namek Saga, no one wished Kami back to life. He got a free ride because his lifeforce was tied to Piccolo's. So it might just take a trade to revive one of the Supreme Kais, with Beerus just hitching a ride back to being alive just like Kami.

[apex_pretador]

I wrote a mini-rant on this in the episode thread. Should I copy & paste it here?

please do.

[Berserker1921]

Like Geekdom mentioned. Which I agree with. Is that beerus life is tied to all the kaioshin. Not just one. Like for instance in universe 7, beerus had five kaioshin. So when four were killed. it was jusr East kaioshin. So he is still alive. But if kaoishin dies. Then Beerus dies. And I personally think if gowasu dies. So will the universe 10 god of destruction. But what worries me after buus rampage. Why didn't Whis do anything to stop him. Or does he truly not care about berrus?

[Zephyr]

If Beerus sealed Elder Kaioshin, then Elder Kaioshin counts toward the life force as well, right? If that's the case, then he must also be dead in Future Trunks' timeline.

Something must have happened to the Z Sword in the future. It wouldn't be terribly surprising if Kaioshin had Trunks use it against Dabura. It could have been destroyed, with Elder Kaioshin killed subsequently. Otherwise things get too screwy for me.

[GodKaio-Ken]

If Beerus sealed Elder Kaioshin, then Elder Kaioshin counts toward the life force as well, right? If that's the case, then he must also be dead in Future Trunks' timeline.

Something must have happened to the Z Sword in the future. It wouldn't be terribly surprising if Kaioshin had Trunks use it against Dabura. It could have been destroyed, with Elder Kaioshin killed subsequently. Otherwise things get too screwy for me.

I think it'd odd with the connection between Black and Zamasu, with Zamasu being a Kaioshin, that noone has proposed Black destroyed the Z Sword in a rampage against the Kaoshin he feels are "Sinners" for just watching mortals.

He may have leveled or blown up their world thus destroying the Z Sword and possibly killing the last Kaioshin.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I wrote a mini-rant on this in the episode thread. Should I copy & paste it here?

please do.

- Here's the whole Kaioshin/Hakaishin link thing, which I thought was a really terrible plot point as soon as I heard about it. Just to start with:
* How does this even work? With Piccolo and Kami it made sense that if one of them died the other would too, as they were two separated halves of the same being. But everything we're shown implies that Hakaishin (and in some cases Kaioshin) are appointed for the job. Does becoming one somehow create a magical contract that binds your life to the other?
* For example, if the Universe 10 Hakaishin had died right after Gowasu temporarily promoted Zamasu to Kaioshin, does that mean Zamasu would die, but if the Hakaishin died a second before he was promoted or a second after he was demoted, he wouldn't?
* If the Kaioshin were so worried about the universe during Goku and Beerus' fight, why didn't they kill themselves to kill Beerus? Do they even know about this rule?
* What would happen to the Hakaishin if all of the Kaioshin in a given universe simultaneously demoted each other?

To sum up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDyVeIuTQLY

[Friezacooler]

If Beerus sealed Elder Kaioshin, then Elder Kaioshin counts toward the life force as well, right? If that's the case, then he must also be dead in Future Trunks' timeline.

Something must have happened to the Z Sword in the future. It wouldn't be terribly surprising if Kaioshin had Trunks use it against Dabura. It could have been destroyed, with Elder Kaioshin killed subsequently. Otherwise things get too screwy for me.

I think it'd odd with the connection between Black and Zamasu, with Zamasu being a Kaioshin, that noone has proposed Black destroyed the Z Sword in a rampage against the Kaoshin he feels are "Sinners" for just watching mortals.

He may have leveled or blown up their world thus destroying the Z Sword and possibly killing the last Kaioshin.

wasn't their world confirmed as indestructible during the fight with Kid buu?

[Dbzfan94]

If Beerus sealed Elder Kaioshin, then Elder Kaioshin counts toward the life force as well, right? If that's the case, then he must also be dead in Future Trunks' timeline.

Something must have happened to the Z Sword in the future. It wouldn't be terribly surprising if Kaioshin had Trunks use it against Dabura. It could have been destroyed, with Elder Kaioshin killed subsequently. Otherwise things get too screwy for me.

I think it'd odd with the connection between Black and Zamasu, with Zamasu being a Kaioshin, that noone has proposed Black destroyed the Z Sword in a rampage against the Kaoshin he feels are "Sinners" for just watching mortals.

He may have leveled or blown up their world thus destroying the Z Sword and possibly killing the last Kaioshin.

wasn't their world confirmed as indestructible during the fight with Kid buu?

Was it? I remember Elder Kai getting annoyed that their planet would be ravaged and all war-torn if they fought there

[dbgtFO]

wasn't their world confirmed as indestructible during the fight with Kid buu?

Was it? I remember Elder Kai getting annoyed that their planet would be ravaged and all war-torn if they fought there

The basic claim was that the Kaioshin world was very sturdy, and yeah he also later laments the fact the planet got roughed up pretty good.

[GodKaio-Ken]

wasn't their world confirmed as indestructible during the fight with Kid buu?

Was it? I remember Elder Kai getting annoyed that their planet would be ravaged and all war-torn if they fought there

The basic claim was that the Kaioshin world was very sturdy, and yeah he also later laments the fact the planet got roughed up pretty good.

Even if the planet can't be destroyed, which I'm unsure either way, evwn a barrage of ki blasts may have destroyed the sword.

[Friezacooler]

Was it? I remember Elder Kai getting annoyed that their planet would be ravaged and all war-torn if they fought there

The basic claim was that the Kaioshin world was very sturdy, and yeah he also later laments the fact the planet got roughed up pretty good.

Even if the planet can't be destroyed, which I'm unsure either way, evwn a barrage of ki blasts may have destroyed the sword.

it toke Katchin to destroy it hardest metal in the universe. so I doubt it would take a regular ki blast to damage that sword.

[GodKaio-Ken]

The basic claim was that the Kaioshin world was very sturdy, and yeah he also later laments the fact the planet got roughed up pretty good.

Even if the planet can't be destroyed, which I'm unsure either way, evwn a barrage of ki blasts may have destroyed the sword.

it toke Katchin to destroy it hardest metal in the universe. so I doubt it would take a regular ki blast to damage that sword.

We don't know it took that much to destroy it. We know it was destroyed by it but it was never implied only katchin could break i. I could be wrong.

[Khin]

The fact that Whis immediately assumed that Future Beerus died just by hearing that the Kaioshin of the future died (With no mention of Elder Kaioshin whatsoever) heavily suggests that Elder Kaioshin is no longer tied with the Hakaishin, probably because he is not a current Kaioshin. Another implication is the latest episode, where Beerus told Whis to keep Kaioshin as safe as possible; implying once again that he is the only Kaioshin currently that is tied to Beerus.

This brings up a question as why the hell Whis or Beerus himself didn't do anything when the Kaioshins was rampaged by Majin Boo and Bibidi long ago, and when Kaioshin almost died against Boo in the Boo Arc (I just realized that Vegeta technically saved Beerus' life back then)

As for the Kaiju fruit thingy. I assume that the tree won't produce new golden fruits unless all Kaioshins will die, which explains why the Kaioshins that was killed by Boo wasn't replaced yet. And why Gowasu is the only Kaioshin in Universe 10, and why Universe 6 seemingly only have 1 Kaioshin. When all Kaioshins die (Along with the Hakaishin), a new Hakaishin will replace the position, which goes back then when Whis offered Goku to become the next Hakaishin when Beerus kicks the bucket. In the process, you will probably receive some kind of "God Ki" which will make your life tied to the new Kaioshins that will be born.

The Kaioshins and Haikaishin will probably just simply cease to exist if they die, which explains why the Kaioshins that was killed by Boo are nowhere to be found. Elder Kaioshin however received a halo when he died because he is no longer an active Kaioshin.

[dbgtFO]

It doesn't make sense.
It really doesn't and here's why:
Whis says the God of Destruction and Kaioshin come as a set and that's why Beerus is worried about the East Kaioshin, because his life is tied to that weakling. However they never mention anything about Beerus being tied to previous Kaioshin or the Elder Kaioshin, which means we have to make up theories to prevent the glaring plothole that hasn't been addressed..

BEERUS WAS ALIVE BEFORE EAST KAIOSHIN EVEN CAME INTO EXISTENCE!

Recall Episode 3, where Elder Kaioshin tells Kaioshin-Kibito, that Beerus was the one to seal him in the Z-Sword(which is a retread of Toriyama's statement in some interview he did in 2014 IIRC).
Elder Kaioshin was a Kaioshin of 15 generations before the incumbent, even before Majin Buu's rampage against the newest generation of Kaioshin.
Funnily enough there were established to be 5 Kaioshin back in the newest generation, 4 for each cardinal direction and then their leader, but now it seems like Toriyama has changed the lore(yet again), so there's only supposed to be 1 Kaioshin, just like there's only 1 God of Destruction.
In Champa Arc we got one Kaioshin from U6 and his attendant and in the current arc, we just have Gowasu and his apprentice Zamasu, who wasn't even a Kaioshin to begin with.
Given this I'm weary about using information from Toriyama's interviews from a few years back, as it seems those were ideas, that he doesn't seem to be sticking with in the new material. I really dislike the fact that Zamasu was a Kaio before getting promoted, as his design is obviously that of a Kaioshin and this new tidbit seems like another I won't like, but we'll see if they come up with a good explanation for it.

[Lord Frieza]

I would the the main reason was that Buu had technically only killed 2 of the kaioshin. Grand and South were both still very much a live and separate from Buu when he first absorbed them so even if Buu had killed East Beerus and Whis could have found a way to free them but since things didn't turn out that way Beerus decided to just leave things as they were. A better question would be why not save the kaioshin on earth when there was a very good chance he would have been killed. I guess its because he was asleep.

I don't see this as being necessary as Beerus already has restrictions placed on him to stop his abusing his power already.

One way to explain it could be that this connection to the kaioshin is something that only happened after the incident with Buu. Perhaps the other universe Zeno destroyed all had rebellious Gods of Destruction and after he got ride of them he added an extra restriction to keep the rest in line or maybe it was done to try and force the God of Destruction to help protect their universes.

[Cipher]

It doesn't make sense.
It really doesn't and here's why:
Whis says the God of Destruction and Kaioshin come as a set and that's why Beerus is worried about the East Kaioshin, because his life is tied to that weakling. However they never mention anything about Beerus being tied to previous Kaioshin or the Elder Kaioshin, which means we have to make up theories to prevent the glaring plothole that hasn't been addressed..

The idea that Beerus is specifically linked to (the formerly) East Kaioshin is too narrow an interpretation of what we've been given. Rather, the Kaioshin (however many of them there are at the time) and the God of Destruction are a set. If one whole side goes, so does the other.