Akira Toriyama's view on "DragonBall GT"

Pieter · Post by **Pieter** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:49 am

VegettoEX wrote:Regardless of what your views are, I'm going to once again warn you to type properly. You're clearly aware of multiple languages and cultures, and as such, should have no problem following the rules you've agreed to.

I'm sorry but where in the rules does it say that you may not refer to Toriyama by his first name?

Post by **VegettoEX** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:20 am

Pieter wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:Regardless of what your views are, I'm going to once again warn you to type properly. You're clearly aware of multiple languages and cultures, and as such, should have no problem following the rules you've agreed to.
I'm sorry but where in the rules does it say that you may not refer to Toriyama by his first name?

That's irrelevant and wasn't being referring to. I'm talking about capitalization, punctuation, and sentences that make coherent sense.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:37 am

Aoi wrote:Right, and we're speaking in a message board inhabitted by people from mostly the United States.

And we're talking about showing some respect to a Japanese person, so I fail to see how that's relevant.

I'm Japanese (so nice try ), speaking of someone on first name basis is not an insult in the way you see it

So you know much about "the way I see it"? Damn, you are well-informed!
And referring to Toriyama as "Akira" is just plain weird. Sorry, but that's how it is. I don't care where you're born: that's irrelevant. You may be born in Japan, but you don't know quite a few things about Japanese culture, apparently (but nice try

).

If you think it matters to Akira that they call him by both names on an internet forum about casual dragon ball talk, then you really have a wrong view of who this man really is.

Cut the crap already. You're not the man's best friend.

Wont go into too detail of my few meetings with him (only watched though).

"Only watched", huh? I'd say that's detailed enough, thanks.

Besides, your first words in this topic were:

Aoi wrote:After reading the translation it surprised me much

... because you understood all of a sudden?
So you're Japanese, but you don't understand Japanese. I guess that makes you an authority. And Toriyama's best friend. Who "just watches".

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:58 am

Olivier Hague wrote:... because you understood all of a sudden?
So you're Japanese, but you don't understand Japanese. I guess that makes you an authority. And Toriyama's best friend. Who "just watches".

I suggest that we now refer to Olivier Hague as "Captain Burns" of the U.S.S. Starship...Hot* ;p

Seriously though, come on. Referring to someone by familiar has been a reserved privledge in many cultures for a very long time. Just because American society has a more relaxed standard doesn't mean you should run around calling Toriyama by his first name. It's disrespectful.

-Corey

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:59 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Regardless of what your views are, I'm going to once again warn you to type properly. You're clearly aware of multiple languages and cultures, and as such, should have no problem following the rules you've agreed to.

sure Vegetto. But know that my english isn't as developed as yours (though I can speak normally). I am bound to have errors when I type, but I work hard to limit them.

thanks for your understanding.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:01 pm

Aoi wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:Regardless of what your views are, I'm going to once again warn you to type properly. You're clearly aware of multiple languages and cultures, and as such, should have no problem following the rules you've agreed to.
sure Vegetto

*slams head into desk*

CHECK. PLEASE.

-Corey

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:11 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Aoi wrote:Right, and we're speaking in a message board inhabitted by people from mostly the United States.
And we're talking about showing some respect to a Japanese person, so I fail to see how that's relevant.

I'm Japanese (so nice try ), speaking of someone on first name basis is not an insult in the way you see it
So you know much about "the way I see it"? Damn, you are well-informed!
And referring to Toriyama as "Akira" is just plain weird. Sorry, but that's how it is. I don't care where you're born: that's irrelevant. You may be born in Japan, but you don't know quite a few things about Japanese culture, apparently (but nice try ).

If you think it matters to Akira that they call him by both names on an internet forum about casual dragon ball talk, then you really have a wrong view of who this man really is.
Cut the crap already. You're not the man's best friend.

Wont go into too detail of my few meetings with him (only watched though).
"Only watched", huh? I'd say that's detailed enough, thanks.

Besides, your first words in this topic were:
Aoi wrote:After reading the translation it surprised me much
... because you understood all of a sudden?
So you're Japanese, but you don't understand Japanese. I guess that makes you an authority. And Toriyama's best friend. Who "just watches".

Yes watched, as my mother spoke to him for around 30 minutes

(went both times, he spoke to me a little (the man is the most modest man you can ever meet). I was very young though....long story. And you're right, I dont know anything about Japanese culture

(let's end the ignorance here guys, this argument has been over before you even began to type). I will call Akira Toriyama "Akira" whenever I want and because you know a Japanese person or read a "wikipedia" article, you wont change my mind. (wont talk further on the matter, it's too irrelevant)
----

There is a big difference in the drawing Akira drew about SSJ4 and the other artist drew. After seeing Toriyama's drawing, I find that his is much more like the "Goku we know" (loving, strong, gentle) than the super angry SSJ4 that was in Dragon ball GT. But I'm glad they did not change his personality from the one we loved (as we saw when he smiles at Pan and all the funny moments with Vegeta).

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:13 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:
Aoi wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:Regardless of what your views are, I'm going to once again warn you to type properly. You're clearly aware of multiple languages and cultures, and as such, should have no problem following the rules you've agreed to.
sure Vegetto
*slams head into desk*

CHECK. PLEASE.

-Corey

was that an inteligent response or epilepsy?

. That actually made me laugh

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:56 pm

Well, I am glad I visited this thread. It is fairly obvious that DBGT is not canon. I am even shocked that Toriyama liked the idea of DBGT.

I have yet to see Toriyama discredit the Dragonball Z anime. Dragonball Z anime is considred canon, It is even more canon now since I found out that Akira Toriyama worked on the anime but he even did some filler!

I only consider Dragonball manga and anime canon, I have yet to see an interview where Toriyama says that the Dragonball Z movies are canon?

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:12 pm

Well, it's strange. George Lucas made idea of making something "canon" or "not canon" that fans now judge other shows. Only a few series in television history have had creators to say what is "canon" and "not canon" (like the Star Trek creator). But just because 2-3 shows have done that, now fans try to decide what is canon or not canon.

The truth is that very few creators care in the way fans do because
1) the show is fictional. It is not a real life story of these characters.
2) Saying something is "not canon" and making it less important can make DVD sales go down, they will never say: "GT is not part of the story and not important at all".

For example: The new Saint Seiya movies not made by the original creator. Many fans got angry saying it is "Not canon" but you will never hear anything from TOEI or the creator for the reasons said above.

If you follow the logic that fans base what is "canon" or not (exemplified through Lucas's detailed star wars canon organization: Anything that is made by the official source (Fox or Lucas or another independent writer with permision from Lucas) is canon if it is not imposible for it to fit into the continuity.

Take that how you will.

Soluzar · Post by **Soluzar** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:56 pm

Aoi wrote:Well, it's strange. George Lucas made idea of making something "canon" or "not canon" that fans now judge other shows.

That's nonsense. The concept of canon goes back to the publication of the first Christian bibles, which was centuries ago. It's an ancient concept, and one which is widely applied. The specific notion of canon as it applies to a body of fictional work was perhaps first defined by the Baker Street Irregulars, with regards to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's body of work featuring Sherlock Holmes. This group has existed since 1935.

The concept is far older than George Lucas, and you simply expose your ignorance by suggesting that it originated with him. I'm sure he'd like you to believe that, though.

Only a few series in television history have had creators to say what is "canon" and "not canon" (like the Star Trek creator). But just because 2-3 shows have done that, now fans try to decide what is canon or not canon.

I'll repeat it once again, in the hope that it might sink in. The concept predates which ever two or three shows you might be thinking of. IN the absense of an official statement, canon in fiction is determined as much by consensus as by any other means. Really, you're just displaying your lack of understanding of the topic. I suggest that you do a little research into the fandom of fictional worlds other than Dragon Ball, and you'll learn a lot.

The truth is that very few creators care in the way fans do because
1) the show is fictional. It is not a real life story of these characters.
2) Saying something is "not canon" and making it less important can make DVD sales go down, they will never say: "GT is not part of the story and not important at all".

While it is true that there are creators who do not care about the concept of canon, this is entirely irrelevant. The absense of an official statement does not give any information whatsoever, other than that an official statement has not been made.

It is at this point that intelligent fans will realise that their own judgement is just as important as that of the publishing company which is responsible for these works. If certain works which are not written by the original creator do not appear to fit in with the main sequence continuity, and appear to be stylistically inconsistent to boot, then should they really be considered canon? This is a question that many fans who witnessed the unfolding of the plot holes in Dragon Ball GT must have asked themselves, and the absense of an official answer is not in itself an aswer.

Wikipedia wrote:Items that are considered canon usually come from the original source or author of the fictional universe, while non-canon material comes from adaptations, spin-offs or unofficial items, often in different media. Fan fiction is usually an example of non-canonical fiction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_%28f ... nal_canons

In so far as Wikipedia is a poor source, then please allow me to point out that I include this passage only because it is a clear and conscise expression of my own beliefs. Please note the use of the term "spin-off" which is clearly the classification under whcih Dragon Ball GT should be placed.

For example: The new Saint Seiya movies not made by the original creator. Many fans got angry saying it is "Not canon" but you will never hear anything from TOEI or the creator for the reasons said above.

Quite so. You will never hear anything either way. You have no information whatsoever. It could be that TOEI intended these new Saint Seiya movies as an addition to, and extension of the existing canon, or it could be that they were intended in the same way as the Dragon Ball movies. I don't think you would find many fans to dispute the notion that the Dragon Ball movies simply cannot take place within the main sequence continuity.

If you follow the logic that fans base what is "canon" or not (exemplified through Lucas's detailed star wars canon organization: Anything that is made by the official source (Fox or Lucas or another independent writer with permision from Lucas) is canon if it is not imposible for it to fit into the continuity.

That would be fine if it were accepted that we should go by the guidelines established by George Lucas. Personally I do not feel that anyone should take a leaf out of his book in any regard whatsoever, but leaving my personal feelings aside, I would invite you to consider the Star Trek situation.

I trust you're entirely aware that there are any number of Star Trek authorised publications which have been expunged from the canon, even though they are not incompatbile with main sequence continuity. This is simply because Paramount feel that it is more appropriate to maintain a clear-cut two-tier system.

MisterFlashdude · Post by **MisterFlashdude** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:13 pm

Since this thread is starting to develope a familiar, distasteful pattern...
I'd like to request that we keep this thread from becoming a debate over the definition and application of 'canon', as I'm sure it will only lead to repetitive non-conclusions.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:24 pm

Such irrelevant ranting going on here.

My point to you guys is that the Dragonball Z anime is canon. Regardless of what people say, it is NOT a spin-off nor is it an adaption.

I am just so sick of ignorant ass people claiming that the Dragonball Z anime is just like DBGT. "Akira Toriyama had nothing to do with the DBZ anime therfore non-canon." Such a load of crap, Who the hell decides what is canon and non-canon any @#$ing ways? Why the hell do Dragonball fans or dragonball haters try to label crap they did not create? In all the Toriyama interviews that I have read, I never heard him once say the Dragonball Z anime is not canon. Hell, the guy worked on the anime, he even did FILLERS!!!!!!!

My point is don't try to label something non canon when it actually is part of continuity and especially when the Muthabeepin creator worked on it himself.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:25 pm

MisterFlashdude wrote:Since this threat is starting to develope a familiar, distasteful pattern...
I'd like to request that we keep this thread from becoming a debate over the definition and application of 'canon', as I'm sure it will only lead to repetitive non-conclusions.

Agreed, no more posts from Aoi and we should be good

Sorry, had to...

-Corey

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:08 pm

Phenomenol wrote:My point to you guys is that the Dragonball Z anime is canon. Regardless of what people say, it is NOT a spin-off nor is it an adaption.

The anime is an adaptation because of concepts that occur which directly contradict events in the manga, events that can't be ignored and occur differently. There are specific moments of dialogue and other plot elements that occur in the anime that directly contradict the manga. Events like Dodoria killing Kargo, Trunks' first transformation into a Super Saiyan, Vegeta seeing Goku as a Super Saiyan on Namek, and frankly design differences such as the number of fingers on a Namekian and distinguishable traits of a Super Saiyan 2. Heck, not just with DBZ, but also original DB; Yamcha's defeat at the hands of the Mummy in Baba's tournament is very different, Goku's actually somewhat aware of who Tien is by the time of the 22nd Budokai (as in the anime, he's already met him beforehand), and Tien actually attempts the Mafuba against Daimao in the anime. The anime is not a direct canon copy-pasting of the manga, there are just too many differences for that to be the case. Stick with your opinion if you must, but I guarantee there are way too many flaws if you try to link the anime and manga directly together. At most, I think the only connection these two sides of the same coin really share is the Bardock special.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:49 pm

Aoi wrote:Yes watched, as my mother spoke to him for around 30 minutes

Well, like I said, that sure makes you an authority.
After all...

You are no one to talk to me about Akira Toriyama. This is what is great about the internet and how little you know who you really are talking to.

Yeah, what the fuck, man? You mean you don't know Aoi? He's just the son of the woman who talked to Toriyama for 30 minutes! I know I'm in awe.

And you're right, I dont know anything about Japanese culture

Well, either you don't know that much about it or you simply can't admit you're wrong.
'Could also be both.

(let's end the ignorance here guys, this argument has been over before you even began to type)

My, your posts are so potent!

I will call Akira Toriyama "Akira" whenever I want

Yeah, who cares what these so-called "other people" think? You're Aoi! Brat extraordinaire!

and because you know a Japanese person or read a "wikipedia" article

Well, to be honest, I just have a brother who knows somebody who saw a "wikipedia" (is that how it's called? I sure wouldn't know: these things are below me, as you could have guessed!) article about a person who might be Japanese.
Still. 'Better than nothing, right?

you wont change my mind.

'Guess not. Then again, based on what I've seen so far, I wasn't exactly holding my breath...
Besides, your "I'm sure he wouldn't mind" argument was so convincing... It's not like rude people ever used that one.

Phenomenol wrote:My point to you guys is that the Dragonball Z anime is canon. Regardless of what people say, it is NOT a spin-off nor is it an adaption.

Er... Of course it's an adaptation. But that's another matter...

I am just so sick of ignorant ass people claiming that the Dragonball Z anime is just like DBGT. "Akira Toriyama had nothing to do with the DBZ anime therfore non-canon."

Why, yes, Toriyama was involved. After all, if he hadn't been involved at all, Tôei would be in trouble, right?

Does that mean the TV series is "canon" though?
How would you define "canon"?

In all the Toriyama interviews that I have read, I never heard him once say the Dragonball Z anime is not canon.

That sure wouldn't make for great advertising...

But when he calls "Dragon Ball GT" a "side story"? Rather than, say... a "sequel"? Or a "follow-up"?
I may be overanalyzing, but I think it's... "interesting".

Hell, the guy worked on the anime, he even did FILLERS!!!!!!!

He made some contributions (designs or ideas) for some filler episodes and movies. It's not like he was the one who decided to make all these things in the first place, and the stories weren't his.

My point is don't try to label something non canon when it actually is part of continuity and especially when the Muthabeepin creator worked on it himself.

Er... I believe most people label the movies, filler episodes and "Dragon Ball GT" as "non-canon" precisely because they don't fit in the continuity of the original work...

Post by **VegettoEX** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:35 pm

I'm not going to name any names... I think it goes without saying by reading the defensive (and also passive-aggressive) style posts... but this, folks, is why people don't like reading your posts on this forum, and I'm getting all sorts of complaints about you via e-mail, IMs, PMs, etc. You're not making this forum a hospitable place.

The temp- and full-bans are coming out swinging. I mean, shit... it's not even a point-of-view thing going on... it's flat out pages and pages of quote-and-reply of insults.

Locked, because no-one can act like adults. On a forum about a show for children. Yes, I get the irony. Feel free to have normal conversations in other threads, and if this topic happens to come up again, I'd love to entertain a natural, flowing, happy talk!