Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Well obviously some things have been changed either from being retconned or them just changing their mind on things.

Beerus' power being retconned is understandable because it's a big part of his character that he's stronger than Goku and Vegeta, it sets up the whole relationship between the characters and it wouldn't work if Beerus was weaker.

Beerus wasn't even twice as strong as Goku in the movie so for him to stay stronger would mean to severely limit Goku's growth which they probably wouldn't want to do. If Beerus really is stronger than SSJB Kaioken x10 then a retcon is the only thing that explains it.

But there's really nothing in the anime at least that points to SSJG being retconned. It hasn't reappeared since, we've only seen Base Goku be much more powerful than before and Gowasu said SSJ2 Goku rivaled the God of Destruction.

It's not like it was retconned in the manga either because he never absorbed it to begin with.

[ssbgoku]

Well obviously some things have been changed either from being retconned or them just changing their mind on things.

Beerus' power being retconned is understandable because it's a big part of his character that he's stronger than Goku and Vegeta, it sets up the whole relationship between the characters and it wouldn't work if Beerus was weaker.

Beerus wasn't even twice as strong as Goku in the movie so for him to stay stronger would mean to severely limit Goku's growth which they probably wouldn't want to do. If Beerus really is stronger than SSJB Kaioken x10 then a retcon is the only thing that explains it.

But there's really nothing in the anime at least that points to SSJG being retconned. It hasn't reappeared since, we've only seen Base Goku be much more powerful than before and Gowasu said SSJ2 Goku rivaled the God of Destruction.

It's not like it was retconned in the manga either because he never absorbed it to begin with.

I agree with what you stated/wrote. However bold part is only part where I disagree. Also I am only talking about anime, not manga or movies.

Bold part, Beerus straight away denied it and even claimed it no where close to level at which goku fought beerus, which means either only ssg or also ss and base as only one time thing which only happened due to pure will and holding on fading away crimson fire(ssg) which was later required for whis training to be brought in form as ssb, even stronger then ssg. Please check the episode again and see this comment of beerus, doesn't it contradict it right away ?

What is funny that later Goku agree with beerus stating that Zamasu can still reach beerus some day as he has vast potential to grow...See, pure retconns, how am I wrong then ?

beerus retconn: 10% line used against enraged vegeta(later visually powers up a lot against ssg) -> ssbx10kaioken-> retconn beerus power
ssg being absorbed in base or ss retconn: post ssg ss goku = ssg goku -> ssg goku >ss2 goku against Zamasu -> retconn of ssg being equal to any form below ss2.

See my point, Basically beerus didn't even bother to comment or be impressed with ss2 goku fight against Goku Black, which means what I wrote above. Now it could only left ss3 vague. However considering how beerus didn't bother to comment about goku turning ss3(holding back vastly) against trunks, it means not even heavily supressed ss3 > ssg.

I can understand that beerus power being retconned would be alone enough to explain why beerus wasn't bothering to comment about goku's increase in power, especially if beerus 10 in movie would be 100 in anime. However it doesn't mean that we shouldn't accept another retconn(ssg = ss) if it is already contradicted, right ? Until someone prove me wrong I will stick to vastly powered up base form, then ss, ss2 and ss3 but ssg being still above(even if anime will never bother to bring it back)

[TheMikado]

Well Super Saiyan God is just a transformation for the manga. He doesn't transform into in the anime because as Beerus said the power had merged and became a part of Goku.

You could assume that it was just a one time deal but they never said that it was and they have never had Super Saiyan God show up in the anime since even though it's still a relatively new form and they've had all the others show up.

Yeah I know, also it was very pattern in dragon ball z, so it may not be the same with dbs as it was in dbz. So here it is how I see it"

if dbs pattern of transformations=dbz pattern of transformations and super Saiyan god is transformation = then base< ss < ss2 < ss3 < ssg < ssb (no matter what arc)
else, it is up to our interpretation...

Also what make me wonder and sometimes angry is people using double standards. I mean people are easily accepting for possiblity of beerus being retconned to be much stronger then ssg even although eariler beerus was happy and excited at least to fight against ssg, so surely it wasn't any less then 10% of his power... However for some reason people can not accept possiblity of ssg power being absorbed being retconned in anime too, why ?, just please explain to me someone.

Is it only due to power level going up and can not be down ?, or maybe is it due to Akira stating that he doesn't plan for goku or vegeta to suprass beerus... I am really curious. If it is only due to interview then why people are ready to accept 6-10-15 scale was retconned or Akira stating ss2 and ss3 forms are absolete and will not get used, and then being used again does not contradict what Akira stated, doesn't it prove that Akira's word in interview should be taken with grain of salt ?

In my humble opinion even in dragon ball z there were retconns and in dbs they were too and will keep pooping up as Author cares only about sales and merchandise, however he will try to stay consistent after his editors point him out something wrong.

Example:

Editors: "Dragon ball super has great sales so far, but what we could do to increase it..."
Akira: "Damn... I am missing ss form and even ss2 and ss3 (light bulb in head), well that it, let's bring all these forms back !"
Editors: "Yeah, that cool, but wait what about ssg form, it doesn't sell that good since you decided to not bring it back..."
Akira: "Really then brings it back too, as long as it is entertaining and nice to watch it will be ok".
Editors: "Wait, but Mr. Akira in anime ssg is as strong as ss form... so"
Akira: "Just retconn it and make ss form just powered up from base form, let's say 1000 multiplier for ssg from base and scale all forms from it, ok ?"
Editors: "that ok but what if someone points out these flaws"
Akira: "You can not doubt word of God, they will swallow it and get used to it with pass of time. Mwahaha I am evil genius, am I not ?"
Editors: *sweatdrops*

hahaha, I love this. I'm going to start writing things in this style!

[apex_pretador]

Well obviously some things have been changed either from being retconned or them just changing their mind on things.

Beerus' power being retconned is understandable because it's a big part of his character that he's stronger than Goku and Vegeta, it sets up the whole relationship between the characters and it wouldn't work if Beerus was weaker.

Beerus wasn't even twice as strong as Goku in the movie so for him to stay stronger would mean to severely limit Goku's growth which they probably wouldn't want to do. If Beerus really is stronger than SSJB Kaioken x10 then a retcon is the only thing that explains it.

But there's really nothing in the anime at least that points to SSJG being retconned. It hasn't reappeared since, we've only seen Base Goku be much more powerful than before and Gowasu said SSJ2 Goku rivaled the God of Destruction.

It's not like it was retconned in the manga either because he never absorbed it to begin with.

I agree with what you stated/wrote. However bold part is only part where I disagree. Also I am only talking about anime, not manga or movies.

Bold part, Beerus straight away denied it and even claimed it no where close to level at which goku fought beerus, which means either only ssg or also ss and base as only one time thing which only happened due to pure will and holding on fading away crimson fire(ssg) which was later required for whis training to be brought in form as ssb, even stronger then ssg. Please check the episode again and see this comment of beerus, doesn't it contradict it right away ?

What is funny that later Goku agree with beerus stating that Zamasu can still reach beerus some day as he has vast potential to grow...See, pure retconns, how am I wrong then ?

beerus retconn: 10% line used against enraged vegeta(later visually powers up a lot against ssg) -> ssbx10kaioken-> retconn beerus power
ssg being absorbed in base or ss retconn: post ssg ss goku = ssg goku -> ssg goku >ss2 goku against Zamasu -> retconn of ssg being equal to any form below ss2.

See my point, Basically beerus didn't even bother to comment or be impressed with ss2 goku fight against Goku Black, which means what I wrote above. Now it could only left ss3 vague. However considering how beerus didn't bother to comment about goku turning ss3(holding back vastly) against trunks, it means not even heavily supressed ss3 > ssg.

I can understand that beerus power being retconned would be alone enough to explain why beerus wasn't bothering to comment about goku's increase in power, especially if beerus 10 in movie would be 100 in anime. However it doesn't mean that we shouldn't accept another retconn(ssg = ss) if it is already contradicted, right ? Until someone prove me wrong I will stick to vastly powered up base form, then ss, ss2 and ss3 but ssg being still above(even if anime will never bother to bring it back)

Beerus said he did NOT use 10% of his power in a long time, and that includes vegeta.

[Bullza]

See my point, Basically beerus didn't even bother to comment or be impressed with ss2 goku fight against Goku Black

Pretty sure Whis called Black impressive.

[ssbgoku]

Well Super Saiyan God is just a transformation for the manga. He doesn't transform into in the anime because as Beerus said the power had merged and became a part of Goku.

You could assume that it was just a one time deal but they never said that it was and they have never had Super Saiyan God show up in the anime since even though it's still a relatively new form and they've had all the others show up.

Yeah I know, also it was very pattern in dragon ball z, so it may not be the same with dbs as it was in dbz. So here it is how I see it"

if dbs pattern of transformations=dbz pattern of transformations and super Saiyan god is transformation = then base< ss < ss2 < ss3 < ssg < ssb (no matter what arc)
else, it is up to our interpretation...

Also what make me wonder and sometimes angry is people using double standards. I mean people are easily accepting for possiblity of beerus being retconned to be much stronger then ssg even although eariler beerus was happy and excited at least to fight against ssg, so surely it wasn't any less then 10% of his power... However for some reason people can not accept possiblity of ssg power being absorbed being retconned in anime too, why ?, just please explain to me someone.

Is it only due to power level going up and can not be down ?, or maybe is it due to Akira stating that he doesn't plan for goku or vegeta to suprass beerus... I am really curious. If it is only due to interview then why people are ready to accept 6-10-15 scale was retconned or Akira stating ss2 and ss3 forms are absolete and will not get used, and then being used again does not contradict what Akira stated, doesn't it prove that Akira's word in interview should be taken with grain of salt ?

In my humble opinion even in dragon ball z there were retconns and in dbs they were too and will keep pooping up as Author cares only about sales and merchandise, however he will try to stay consistent after his editors point him out something wrong.

Example:

Editors: "Dragon ball super has great sales so far, but what we could do to increase it..."
Akira: "Damn... I am missing ss form and even ss2 and ss3 (light bulb in head), well that it, let's bring all these forms back !"
Editors: "Yeah, that cool, but wait what about ssg form, it doesn't sell that good since you decided to not bring it back..."
Akira: "Really then brings it back too, as long as it is entertaining and nice to watch it will be ok".
Editors: "Wait, but Mr. Akira in anime ssg is as strong as ss form... so"
Akira: "Just retconn it and make ss form just powered up from base form, let's say 1000 multiplier for ssg from base and scale all forms from it, ok ?"
Editors: "that ok but what if someone points out these flaws"
Akira: "You can not doubt word of God, they will swallow it and get used to it with pass of time. Mwahaha I am evil genius, am I not ?"
Editors: *sweatdrops*

hahaha, I love this. I'm going to start writing things in this style!

Great , I am happy to entertain someone, but I really could see it going in Akira's mind like or even for real. Anyway be my guest

Well obviously some things have been changed either from being retconned or them just changing their mind on things.

Beerus' power being retconned is understandable because it's a big part of his character that he's stronger than Goku and Vegeta, it sets up the whole relationship between the characters and it wouldn't work if Beerus was weaker.

Beerus wasn't even twice as strong as Goku in the movie so for him to stay stronger would mean to severely limit Goku's growth which they probably wouldn't want to do. If Beerus really is stronger than SSJB Kaioken x10 then a retcon is the only thing that explains it.

But there's really nothing in the anime at least that points to SSJG being retconned. It hasn't reappeared since, we've only seen Base Goku be much more powerful than before and Gowasu said SSJ2 Goku rivaled the God of Destruction.

It's not like it was retconned in the manga either because he never absorbed it to begin with.

I agree with what you stated/wrote. However bold part is only part where I disagree. Also I am only talking about anime, not manga or movies.

Bold part, Beerus straight away denied it and even claimed it no where close to level at which goku fought beerus, which means either only ssg or also ss and base as only one time thing which only happened due to pure will and holding on fading away crimson fire(ssg) which was later required for whis training to be brought in form as ssb, even stronger then ssg. Please check the episode again and see this comment of beerus, doesn't it contradict it right away ?

What is funny that later Goku agree with beerus stating that Zamasu can still reach beerus some day as he has vast potential to grow...See, pure retconns, how am I wrong then ?

beerus retconn: 10% line used against enraged vegeta(later visually powers up a lot against ssg) -> ssbx10kaioken-> retconn beerus power
ssg being absorbed in base or ss retconn: post ssg ss goku = ssg goku -> ssg goku >ss2 goku against Zamasu -> retconn of ssg being equal to any form below ss2.

See my point, Basically beerus didn't even bother to comment or be impressed with ss2 goku fight against Goku Black, which means what I wrote above. Now it could only left ss3 vague. However considering how beerus didn't bother to comment about goku turning ss3(holding back vastly) against trunks, it means not even heavily supressed ss3 > ssg.

I can understand that beerus power being retconned would be alone enough to explain why beerus wasn't bothering to comment about goku's increase in power, especially if beerus 10 in movie would be 100 in anime. However it doesn't mean that we shouldn't accept another retconn(ssg = ss) if it is already contradicted, right ? Until someone prove me wrong I will stick to vastly powered up base form, then ss, ss2 and ss3 but ssg being still above(even if anime will never bother to bring it back)

Beerus said he did NOT use 10% of his power in a long time, and that includes vegeta.

Yeah that what he said, but there no nothing which excludes vegeta from this statement. I don't argure that enraged vegeta is = 10% beerus, hell I would lowball and put mutated ss2 vegeta as only 1% of beerus, but if beerus was at this point at 10% and later visibly power up and shown greater feats then it clearly contraditcts idea of ssbx10kaioken being still infferior to beerus. How can you deny this ?

See my point, Basically beerus didn't even bother to comment or be impressed with ss2 goku fight against Goku Black

Pretty sure Whis called Black impressive.

Maybe, Pretty sure beerus still denied ss2 goku being any close to the fight he had with goku(aka ssg, and temporary ss powered up form), which means ssg=ss is contradicted as according to beerus to ssg > current ss2 goku, see my point ?

[Bullza]

Maybe, Pretty sure beerus still denied ss2 goku being any close to the fight he had with goku(aka ssg, and temporary ss powered up form), which means ssg=ss is contradicted as according to beerus to ssg > current ss2 goku, see my point ?

That's the second time I heard that said so I just watched the last part of the episode and I don't see anything like that said at all.

In fact Goku says he feels a trembling he hadn't felt since he fought Beerus and he had a lot of room for improvement and could become as strong as Beerus.

[ssbgoku]

Maybe, Pretty sure beerus still denied ss2 goku being any close to the fight he had with goku(aka ssg, and temporary ss powered up form), which means ssg=ss is contradicted as according to beerus to ssg > current ss2 goku, see my point ?

That's the second time I heard that said so I just watched the last part of the episode and I don't see anything like that said at all.

In fact Goku says he feels a trembling he hadn't felt since he fought Beerus and he had a lot of room for improvement and could become as strong as Beerus.

Ok, I am sorry because I may misunderstood it or found bad/incorrect subs. I have also just watched Dragon ball super episode 53, just focusing on goku fight with Zamasu part and then last part where Beerus, goku and whis are comming back from universe 10. Here is what was said:

goku: ''still, this trembling in my hand makes me think back to when I fought Beerus-sama"
Beerus: "What ?!, Don't compare him to me ! I am on completly different level !"
goku: "nah he is still has plenty of room to improvement"
goku: "he might become a god as strong as you..."
Berrus: "Don't compare him to me ! I am on completly different level !"

From this short exchange or dialogs, I would consider these things:

1) Current ss2 goku ~ ssg, Goku compares his fight with beerus as ssg with his fight against zamasu as ss2. Zamasu could be near ssg, but not then yet.
2) Beerus is indeed much stronger then ssg, so he was retconned like that(due to 10% line which was contradicted)
3) Zamasu can be as strong as beerus, so possibly ss2 goku is a bit below ssg

Either way, no matter how you look at it, ss~ssg seems to be retconned in anime

[Bullza]

All I see it as is Goku's hand trembles like when he fought Beerus but he ain't as strong as Beerus but could be one day.

SSJ Goku could be as strong as SSJG back then. Zamasu is stronger than that. SSJ2 Goku is stronger than that and Beerus is on a completely different level which we knew because he's stronger than SSJB Goku.

[DBZ Macky]

All I see it as is Goku's hand trembles like when he fought Beerus but he ain't as strong as Beerus but could be one day.

SSJ Goku could be as strong as SSJG back then. Zamasu is stronger than that. SSJ2 Goku is stronger than that and Beerus is on a completely different level which we knew because he's stronger than SSJB Goku.

There can't be much difference between SSJG from BoG and SSJB from RoF though.
Goku was still weaker than Beerus, It didn't look like SSJB increased Godku's power by 500x.
What you're saying is:

SSJG Goku= 6
Beerus= 10
Goku= 0.12
Goku (SSJ)= 6
Goku (SSJ2)= 12
Goku (SSJ3)= 48
Goku (SSJB)= ~70

This makes no sense since Beerus's power wasn't retconned like that when Rof came out.
BTW What multiplier would you give SSJG and SSJB if you consider both as separate transformations (Both in the Anime and the Manga).

I'd say SSJB is 10x SSJG since Toriyama DID say that he felt SSJ was a 10x multiplier instead of 50x, so why not consider that for SSJGSSJ?

[HeroR]

All I see it as is Goku's hand trembles like when he fought Beerus but he ain't as strong as Beerus but could be one day.

SSJ Goku could be as strong as SSJG back then. Zamasu is stronger than that. SSJ2 Goku is stronger than that and Beerus is on a completely different level which we knew because he's stronger than SSJB Goku.

There can't be much difference between SSJG from BoG and SSJB from RoF though.
Goku was still weaker than Beerus, It didn't look like SSJB increased Godku's power by 500x.
What you're saying is:

SSJG Goku= 6
Beerus= 10
Goku= 0.12
Goku (SSJ)= 6
Goku (SSJ2)= 12
Goku (SSJ3)= 48
Goku (SSJB)= ~70

This makes no sense since Beerus's power wasn't retconned like that when Rof came out.
BTW What multiplier would you give SSJG and SSJB if you consider both as separate transformations (Both in the Anime and the Manga).

I'd say SSJB is 10x SSJG since Toriyama DID say that he felt SSJ was a 10x multiplier instead of 50x, so why not consider that for SSJGSSJ?

But Goku can become a normal Super Saiyan on top of Super Saiyan 2 and 3. So if Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God after the events of BOG, then Super Saiyan 2 and 3 would boost Goku's power further, which is already an 8x multipler.

Also, the 6, 10, and 15 numbers are flawed since it has been stated that Goku isn't near Beerus in power in both the anime and manga, and would need Vegeta to just stand a chance, yet a Super Saiyan God pushed Beerus to use 70% of his power in the movie.

[DBZ Macky]

All I see it as is Goku's hand trembles like when he fought Beerus but he ain't as strong as Beerus but could be one day.

SSJ Goku could be as strong as SSJG back then. Zamasu is stronger than that. SSJ2 Goku is stronger than that and Beerus is on a completely different level which we knew because he's stronger than SSJB Goku.

There can't be much difference between SSJG from BoG and SSJB from RoF though.
Goku was still weaker than Beerus, It didn't look like SSJB increased Godku's power by 500x.
What you're saying is:

SSJG Goku= 6
Beerus= 10
Goku= 0.12
Goku (SSJ)= 6
Goku (SSJ2)= 12
Goku (SSJ3)= 48
Goku (SSJB)= ~70

This makes no sense since Beerus's power wasn't retconned like that when Rof came out.
BTW What multiplier would you give SSJG and SSJB if you consider both as separate transformations (Both in the Anime and the Manga).

I'd say SSJB is 10x SSJG since Toriyama DID say that he felt SSJ was a 10x multiplier instead of 50x, so why not consider that for SSJGSSJ?

But Goku can become a normal Super Saiyan on top of Super Saiyan 2 and 3. So if Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God after the events of BOG, then Super Saiyan 2 and 3 would boost Goku's power further, which is already an 8x multipler.

Also, the 6, 10, and 15 numbers are flawed since it has been stated that Goku isn't near Beerus in power in both the anime and manga, and would need Vegeta to just stand a chance, yet a Super Saiyan God pushed Beerus to use 70% of his power in the movie.

I feel that the 6-10-15 scale must work for RoF even if it doesn't work for anything after that. And Goku definitely didn't surpass Beerus in RoF.

[Bullza]

The 6/10/15 scale could have already been outdated by the time Resurrection F came out. At the time Toriyama said that he wasn't here if he'd even get involved with a sequel.

But yeah for now I'd say SSJB is 10x stronger than SSJG. It's a complete and utter guess though and it could easily be a lot more than that, it's more than 8x stronger anyway.

I'm hoping the next episode gives an idea. I'd expect that SSJB Vegeta will force Black to transform.

Is Black's Rose form his equivalent of SSJ making him 50x stronger or SSJB making him hundreds of times stronger?

I can see there being confusion because Base Black is hundreds of times stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta so surely the same would be true in any respective SSJ or SSJB form so they should get utterly stomped right? For example

Goku - 1
SSJ Goku - 50
SSJ2 Goku - 100
SSJ3 Goku - 400
SSJB Goku - 500

Black - 410
SSJ Black - 20,500
SSJB Black - 205,000

Unless SSJ Rose is just Black as a SSJ and SSJB is like 50x stronger than SSJ3 then who knows how that'll that work.

[DBZ Macky]

The 6/10/15 scale could have already been outdated by the time Resurrection F came out. At the time Toriyama said that he wasn't *sure* if he'd even get involved with a sequel.

This is Toriyama but even he couldn't have forgotten what he said in such a recent interview (I hope so).

I'm hoping the next episode gives an idea. I'd expect that SSJB Vegeta will force Black to transform.

Yeah me too, but he's obviously gonna transform at the end and leave the episode on a cliffhanger. So I wouldn't expect too much.

Is Black's Rose form his equivalent of SSJ making him 50x stronger or SSJB making him hundreds of times stronger?

That would make him OP. I'd say Base to SSJR for Black is the same multiplier as SSJG to SSJB for Goku.

Goku - 1
SSJ Goku - 50
SSJ2 Goku - 100
SSJ3 Goku - 400
SSJB Goku - 500

What multiplier would you give to SSJG and SSJB in the manga?

[Bullza]

What multiplier would you give to SSJG and SSJB in the manga?

Well it's trickier to say in the manga because it skipped over the Resurrection F saga. In the manga Goku never said that fusing with Vegeta wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus so you couldn't say for sure that he's stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegito.

But SSJG is a lot stronger than Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta who is a lot stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks who would be 400x stronger than Base Gotenks who would be much stronger than Base Goku.

So SSJG Goku would be at least thousands of times stronger than Base Goku. How much stronger SSJB Goku is than that I don't know how you could even begin to guess.

[buutenks]

How about, base=1/50 of ssg?

base form= 1/50 ssg
ssj=ssg
ssj2=2x ssg
ssj3=8x ssg
ssj blue= 50x ssg

in anime.

manga its obvious that ssj1-3 r nowhere near ssg.

[Lord Beerus]

Base Goku Black no sold a barrage of attacks from Vegeta then sent him flying, and visibly hurt, with one kick to the stomach. Goku Black in his base form is far beyond SSJB, and as a SSJ Rose, Vegeta and Goku can't do shit against him. They are really up against it now.

Also, according to Herms:

Black says he's gone beyond what any mortal can, and is still improving.

Yep. Goku Black is looking untouchable right now.

[Chiki]

Base Goku Black no sold a barrage of attacks from Vegeta then sent him flying, and visibly hurt, with one kick to the stomach. Goku Black in his base form is far beyond SSJB, and as a SSJ Rose, Vegeta and Goku can't do shit against him. They are really up against it now.

Also, according to Herms:

Black says he's gone beyond what any mortal can, and is still improving.

Yep. Goku Black is looking untouchable right now.

I don't think Black's kick did anything to Vegeta, and I think SSB Vegeta did well until Black surprised him with the stab to the chest. Also in the next ep preview we see SSB Goku stall Black for quite a while so I don't think the gap between SSB and SSR is that great. Oh yeah, and Vegeta caught SSR Black's fist easily.

Black seems to be immune to pain and somewhat impervious to damage.

[Beyond]

Black took all those hits from Vegeta like a champ in regular state. However, when he went to Rose form, he didn't insta beat Vegeta. That's kinda crazy. The boost might be less than 2x as he seemed to only win by catching Vegeta off guard.

[Chiki]

Black took all those hits from Vegeta like a champ in regular state. However, when he went to Rose form he didn't insta beat Vegeta. That's kinda crazy. The boost might be less than 2x as he seemed to only win by catching Vegeta off guard.

Yeah, I agree. Since RoF I've been saying that SSB was a x1.333... boost. Looks like that might be right.