This franchise has become a joke now

[TheMikado]

^ you're right not everything is subjective, and in a strictly production, quality, and planning level GT was executed far better then the production woes of Super with include its pre-production. That being said, and I hate to turn this into a Super vs GT thread but I would like to know specifics rather than general, "it's terrible" statements. I can give plenty for Super but I would like you to show your hand first so I can respond in kind and also because you made your statement first.

[sintzu]

The franchise really should have ended with the Buu arc, and even then it was pushing it.

Today's episode might change your mind about that.

[DBZfan2015]

The new saiyan transformations in DBS don't really impress me. Glowy blue hair is cool and all, but I still prefer the iconic golden hair. When Goku first transformed into Super Saiyan 1 on Namek, I was excited. My heart was pumping. Nowadays when I see Goku with a different hair color, I'm like "meh". Am I the only one who feels this way?

Will Goku and Vegeta have polka doted hair next?

[Cipher]

The new saiyan transformations in DBS don't really impress me. Glowy blue hair is cool and all, but I still prefer the iconic golden hair. When Goku first transformed into Super Saiyan 1 on Namek, I was excited. My heart was pumping. Nowadays when I see Goku with a different hair color, I'm like "meh". Am I the only one who feels this way?

Will Goku and Vegeta have polka doted hair next?

I think that's a result of one coming first and has jack-all to do with what color the hair is, to be honest.

The first time that sort of element is revealed is always going to hold more weight than subsequent updates.

For all the legitimate shots to be lobbed at Super, ones regarding its transformations still feel off the mark to me. Is Super Saiyan Blue truly less remarkable than Super Saiyan 2, a transformation that amounts to slightly different hair and sparks (other than its tongue-in-cheek shorthand in the color-coded name)? It's less visually distinct than Super Saiyan 3, but that was a form designed for endgame, near parodic excess. The only route from there is something vastly different and equally complex -- Super Saiyan 4, for example -- or simplified, per Toriyama's general approach. He's never been able to play with color before, so Blue makes sense -- especially as an update on Super Saiyan God, which is rather distinct in its own, equally stripped down way.

If anyone's no longer feeling in awe of Super Saiyan transformations, I'd guess it's because we have, at minimum, six of the damn things now. At the very least the fiction has gone out of its way to deem Super Saiyan God and Blue suitably conceptually different than the previous transformation route -- they're part of this whole new mechanic of godly ki that's apparently removed from the way any of the characters were utilizing the concept before. Just as Super Saiyan 4 was conceptually different before them.

[dbzfan7]

The new saiyan transformations in DBS don't really impress me. Glowy blue hair is cool and all, but I still prefer the iconic golden hair. When Goku first transformed into Super Saiyan 1 on Namek, I was excited. My heart was pumping. Nowadays when I see Goku with a different hair color, I'm like "meh". Am I the only one who feels this way?

Will Goku and Vegeta have polka doted hair next?

I think that's a result of one coming first and has jack-all to do with what color the hair is, to be honest.

The first time that sort of element is revealed is always going to hold more weight than subsequent updates.

For all the legitimate shots to be lobbed at Super, ones regarding its transformations still feel off the mark to me. Is Super Saiyan Blue truly less remarkable than Super Saiyan 2, a transformation that amounts to slightly different hair and sparks (other than its tongue-in-cheek shorthand in the color-coded name)? It's less visually distinct than Super Saiyan 3, but that was a form designed for endgame, near parodic excess. The only route from there is something vastly different and equally complex -- Super Saiyan 4, for example -- or simplified, per Toriyama's general approach. He's never been able to play with color before, so Blue makes sense -- especially as an update on Super Saiyan God, which is rather distinct in its own, equally stripped down way.

If anyone's no longer feeling in awe of Super Saiyan transformations, I'd guess it's because we have, at minimum, six of the damn things now. At the very least the fiction has gone out of its way to deem Super Saiyan God and Blue suitably conceptually different than the previous transformation route -- they're part of this whole new mechanic of godly ki that's apparently removed from the way any of the characters were utilizing the concept before. Just as Super Saiyan 4 was conceptually different before them.

Guess it depends on what you've been sensitized to. I've been on the net for years surfacing on Dragon Ball. I've seen countless amounts of fanwork and entirely new super saiyan forms, that pretty much are exactly what the new movies and Super has shown. Take the established design, give it a new coat of paint, and then call it something new. It's been a thing since the early 2000's, and still goes strong today. I guess they're biggest problem was giving those forms a number, instead of a name, cause back then this kind of stuff was laughed at for being lazy. Though Super Saiyan Angel and Devil did exist online with the same principle. If one didn't grow up seeing a lot of that, or being part of the more artistic side of the fandom, then I can see why they might have no issues with the whole new pattern. It wouldn't feel as played out or done by countless others.

It's not really something Dragon Ball exclusive that bugs me either. WWE came out with new belts that are all just recolours of their existing belts. Before they had completely different titles for their shows, but now every major title outside the US & Intercontinental title is basically the same. The Universal Title received huge backlash. While the smackdown titles were better received as a silver tag belt is better than an ugly bronze tag belt, while the new women's title get's a bit of a pass cause of the whole trying to get across a women's era.

[fadeddreams5]

I agree with the title, but only partially for some of the reasons TC wrote.

If the issue are transformations, the Buu saga was the decline of this series. It introduced SSJ2 (yes, it did, not the Cell Games), SSJ3, kid SSJs, mystic, and fusions. Can't jump the shark higher than this saga. It's the catalyst for all the crap that followed it, including the SSJ5+ fanart. Somehow, it's infinitely better too.

[SaintEvolution]

^ you're right not everything is subjective, and in a strictly production, quality, and planning level GT was executed far better then the production woes of Super with include its pre-production. That being said, and I hate to turn this into a Super vs GT thread but I would like to know specifics rather than general, "it's terrible" statements. I can give plenty for Super but I would like you to show your hand first so I can respond in kind and also because you made your statement first.

Super is worse than GT only in animation, music and maybe storytelling. But in plot and character development, GT is much worse. Much.

But okay, let's not transform this in a "GT VS Super" topic.

I agree with the title, but only partially for some of the reasons TC wrote.

If the issue are transformations, the Buu saga was the decline of this series. It introduced SSJ2 (yes, it did, not the Cell Games), SSJ3, kid SSJs, mystic, and fusions. Can't jump the shark higher than this saga. It's the catalyst for all the crap that followed it, including the SSJ5+ fanart. Somehow, it's infinitely better too.

Buu saga was not worse than Cell Saga. Just saying. And introducing transformations is not a bad thing by itself. Buu Saga has less plot holes than Cell's, even if the story is less complex - and that is a good point comparing the two sagas: Cell saga was pretentious, tried to become more than DB really is; it had some pros, but it had a lot of cons too, speccially in characters powers levels.

I mean, none of the two sagas are better than Frieza/Saiyan arcs, but Buu's was not a decline. It was a desconstruction(with the protagonism returning to Goku again). However, I agree to people that thinks the series should have end there. Like someone said before, Super is more like some extra stuff. Better than stuff like GT or some of the old movies, but not good as DBZ was.

[fadeddreams5]

I'm not saying one saga is better than the other (though I do prefer the Cell one). By decline, I mean the Buu saga introduced things that, in my opinions, have greatly negatively influenced the series since then. For example, it began the trend of Gohan losing power after not training. It made the SSJ transformation easily accessible to any saiyan, to the point that it's a joke. It made SSJ2 a thing and introduced SSJ3, which is the reason we now have SSJ4, SSJG, SSJB, SSJR, thousands of ugly fanart, and a plethora of uninspired SSJ forms to come (from a business standpoint, it was a brilliant move, I suppose). And the whole Gotenks vs Super Buu fiasco is Super in a nutshell with the gags and undercutting tension/drama.

On the other hand, the Cell saga didn't really have any long term effects. It went the only logical route the series could have gone at that point: stronger villains, new SSJs, and training to master that form. Nothing introduced really impacted anything. Gohan never replaced Goku. Future Trunks was never heard from again until recently. Cell didn't accomplish anything. It was very stand-alone.

There's no coming back from the shit the Buu saga started. lol.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The franchise really should have ended with the Buu arc, and even then it was pushing it.

As much as I enjoy Beerus, the Goku black arc, and all the lore building with the 12 universes, Gods, etc....its all just "extra" stuff. If anything most of it could have been condensed into movies like they were originally doing with Movie 14 and 15...not stretched out over a series.

I disagree U6 arc onwards can't be done in a movie form. Not possible. Those arcs have been given room to breathe by being in a series otherwise we'd be getting movies like the M15 where things don't flow and look like things have been cut out.

[MCDaveG]

I was just thinking back, like you, at the end of 90's and beginning of the 2000, when I was a kid, watching Dragon Ball and participating in stuff.
There even wasn't much info around, so everything was kinda shrewed in mystery.

The franchise is not a joke, tough I really don't like the modern anime culture. I never liked otakus and people using random japanese terms to begin with.
But everything back then had much more gravitas. There were really good artworks and we could watch them with friends and think they are badass.
There was some perspective and thought in them, but it's just bunch of coulourful characters thrown together nowadays, also, the pallete was darker.

I can't describe it by words, but if I can summarize my feelings, I would describe it in pictures.

Dragon Ball back then:


Dragon Ball now:

[TheMikado]

^ you're right not everything is subjective, and in a strictly production, quality, and planning level GT was executed far better then the production woes of Super with include its pre-production. That being said, and I hate to turn this into a Super vs GT thread but I would like to know specifics rather than general, "it's terrible" statements. I can give plenty for Super but I would like you to show your hand first so I can respond in kind and also because you made your statement first.

Super is worse than GT only in animation, music and maybe storytelling. But in plot and character development, GT is much worse. Much.

But okay, let's not transform this in a "GT VS Super" topic.

Alright, this is going to get good . I see you conceded that GT was technically better on 3 out of 5 points. The character development and plot are harder to gauge since we are still in the middle of Super but I will see what I can do.

Goku GT vs Super character and plot:
As can been seen by the many threads in here Goku is NOT his DBZ self and seems to have severely regressed. His maturity levels is totally at odds with his age and progression he made in the Buu saga. GT turns him into a kid and gives him a youthful personality, but there are many times Goku displays the seriousness and maturity we see in Z and it often catches his opponents off guard due to his youthful Appearence and serves as a nice contrast.
I won't even go into detail, just search for all the thread in this forum about Gokus regression.

Vegeta Character and Plot: in Super Vegeta has become the ultimate "Jobber" as Black specifically states he's nothing but the appetitizer. In GT we see Vegeta almost entirely dedicated to his family, he does t follow Goku into space or anywhere else, he preferred to stay at home and raise his family. A fitting development for him given his sacrifice in the Buu saga and realizations. You could argue the My Bulma Rageta segment was the equivalent, however it was incredibly forced and unnatural. Something we still joke about. The most we joke about is the Vegetastache which Toriyama personally designed.

Vegeta did shine in GT as the main villain of the Baby arc via baby, it made him both powerful and menacing and tied to their roots as Saiyans. Furthermore I won't even go into how much better the SSJ4 form is in both its methods of achieving it and tying it back to the Oozaru form from the original Dragonball and the SSJ form from Z. Further Vegeta was also given a chance to become part of the story again in the final act, while not being forced into it. Let me be clear, Vegeta lost repeatedly in GT but there was never a big build up for s let down, he just happened to be around and lost.

I won't even go into things like how much better characters like piccolo or Gohan or handled. Even Goten gets a little bit more respect. Anyway if you want to go all in and more in depth I would be happy to in another thread.

[ABED]

Your kidding right???????!!!!!!

They literally have decades of ratings and statistics to go off of!

Highest rated episodes?
Transformations
Most viewed YouTube?
Transformations
Most purchased episodes from funimation/DVD
Transformations

Every time a new transformation is announced internet traffic spikes.

Its literally NOT possible for them to not know transformations sell unless they literally have the worst marketing and executive team in world.

No, I'm not kidding. Youtube means F--- all! Internet traffic means nothing unless you can monetize it. I know many of you will look at those temporary spikes and claim, well, it might not be good for the art or story, but it's good business. The two aren't mutually exclusive. And good business isn't predicated on just a bunch of temporary spikes. You have to think long term and just adding a new form won't help things over the long haul. At some point, their returns are going to diminish.

It isn't that they knew like an all powerful god. However its pretty basic logic actually and a tool used by almost every company whether it is movies or soda. Why do you think Sprite comes out with new cans? When something new is introduced into a popular brand sales generally increase.

New Coke proves otherwise and those spikes are temporary. They're like sugar rushes.

Buu saga was not worse than Cell Saga. Just saying. And introducing transformations is not a bad thing by itself. Buu Saga has less plot holes than Cell's, even if the story is less complex - and that is a good point comparing the two sagas: Cell saga was pretentious, tried to become more than DB really is; it had some pros, but it had a lot of cons too, speccially in characters powers levels.

I mean, none of the two sagas are better than Frieza/Saiyan arcs, but Buu's was not a decline. It was a desconstruction(with the protagonism returning to Goku again). However, I agree to people that thinks the series should have end there. Like someone said before, Super is more like some extra stuff. Better than stuff like GT or some of the old movies, but not good as DBZ was.

The Cell arc wasn't at all pretentious. It's a little more serious. How did it try to be more than what DB is moreso than the Freeza arc or the Piccolo Daimao arc? The Buu arc was definitely a decline, nor would I call it a deconstruction.

[Lord Beerus]

I can't describe it by words, but if I can summarize my feelings, I would describe it in pictures.

Dragon Ball back then:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Dragon Ball now:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

A little bit of cherry picking with those images, don't you think?

[ekrolo2]

Goku is the de facto worst part of new Dragon Ball for me. If Toei went out of their way to make him too heroic back in the 90s, they've gone into the opposite extreme and made him either bland and boring as hell or a total moron.

Hell, I would rather take too heroic Goku over Supers. At least with the former, you've got a guy who's capable of taking things seriously and comes off like having some actual investment in what's happening around him. There is nothing more boring than a protagonist who has nothing even resembling an iota of urgency.

[Doctor.]

I agree with the title, but only partially for some of the reasons TC wrote.

If the issue are transformations, the Buu saga was the decline of this series. It introduced SSJ2 (yes, it did, not the Cell Games), SSJ3, kid SSJs, mystic, and fusions. Can't jump the shark higher than this saga. It's the catalyst for all the crap that followed it, including the SSJ5+ fanart. Somehow, it's infinitely better too.

No, the Cell arc is where it jumped the shark. It introduced the grade forms, mastery of the Super Saiyan form, a form that surpasses Super Saiyan, not to mention all of Cell's transformations and power-ups in his Perfect form. The Boo arc and, by extension, Super are just continuations of the trend, the Cell arc is where it all went to shit.

[ABED]

I like the different transformations in the Cell arc, if only because there were tradeoffs and it showed both Goku's and even Vegeta's intelligence in battle. Other than that, Toriyama kept beating that drum. DB may have jumped the shark in the Cell arc, it certainly got worse in the Buu arc.

[Bansho64]

I like the different transformations in the Cell arc, if only because there were tradeoffs and it showed both Goku's and even Vegeta's intelligence in battle. Other than that, Toriyama kept beating that drum. DB may have jumped the shark in the Cell arc, it certainly got worse in the Buu arc.

Same, though I'm not sure if I like it for the same reasons you do. I liked it for the fact that the transformations showed the SSJ form has flaws and that the fighters can train to get used to it and better themselves to use it. I also liked that it showed how smart Goku can be when fighting. Oh yeah, and I'm kinda a huge fanboy for Grade 2

[TheMikado]

No, I'm not kidding. Youtube means F--- all! Internet traffic means nothing unless you can monetize it. I know many of you will look at those temporary spikes and claim, well, it might not be good for the art or story, but it's good business. The two aren't mutually exclusive. And good business isn't predicated on just a bunch of temporary spikes. You have to think long term and just adding a new form won't help things over the long haul. At some point, their returns are going to diminish.

I'm not sure what you're arguing, I thought the question was if they knew adding a transformation was going to be a selling point and generate interest which they know because they have decades of data. I don't recall you stating on your original premise if the transformations were good for the story or are form which is a separate issue altogether. McGriddles weren't good for your health but the sold like crazy. Something doesn't have to be technically good to be a selling point.

Anyway here's some data, so what you want with it.

http://graphtv.kevinformatics.com/tt0214341

[ABED]

No, I'm not kidding. Youtube means F--- all! Internet traffic means nothing unless you can monetize it. I know many of you will look at those temporary spikes and claim, well, it might not be good for the art or story, but it's good business. The two aren't mutually exclusive. And good business isn't predicated on just a bunch of temporary spikes. You have to think long term and just adding a new form won't help things over the long haul. At some point, their returns are going to diminish.

I'm not sure what you're arguing, I thought the question was if they knew adding a transformation was going to be a selling point and generate interest which they know because they have decades of data. I don't recall you stating on your original premise if the transformations were good for the story or are form which is a separate issue altogether. McGriddles weren't good for your health but the sold like crazy. Something doesn't have to be technically good to be a selling point.

Anyway here's some data, so what you want with it.

http://graphtv.kevinformatics.com/tt0214341

Interest isn't the same as buying a ticket. They have previous data, the only thing they can glean from that is that it MIGHT work. Even your inferences are off the mark. Sure, if you have 500 episodes and a bunch of singles dvd releases, the one's with the big plot turns, such as transformations, are going to get the biggest sales. Does that mean every episode should have a big transformation? Your mcgriddle example is bad because it misses the point. If Toei or Toriyama keeps adding transformations, at some point, it's likely not going to produce the returns they want.

What are you inferring from that data?

[TheMikado]

You do understand that's how ALL marketing works. That's literally what the entire science is based off. Otherwise marketing agencies just randomly throw darts at a board?