Harnessing the Oozaru Power

DaemonCorps · Post by **DaemonCorps** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:48 pm

... and I don't mean like what they did in GT.

Watching the episode of when Gohan turns Oozaru in the late Vegeta Saga made me wonder how the idea of actually using the power of the Oozaru in an actual battle could have affected the series. I mean, we're given the impression by Vegeta's transformation that one could actually maintain their consciousness in the form instead of going completely wild.

The Oozaru is also brought up when chibi Goku "kills" King Piccolo (with the whole Oozaru in the background while Goku rushes at Piccolo to give him the finishing blow).

With all of the hints at how powerful the level is and by actually giving it some kind of in depth explanation (with Vegeta's talk about Brute waves and zeno) you'd think Toriyama would have fallen back on this as a transformation, but he instead just adds on levels of Super Saiyajin.

What do you guys think could have been done more with the Oozaru in the series?

Personally, I would have liked Vegeta to teach the other Saiyajins (Goku, Gohan, Trunks, Goten) to keep their consciousness while in the form so they could use it as some kind of "just-in-case" thing. Maybe it could have been talked about during one of the training breaks before a bad guy shows up (ie. before the Androids or while in the Room of Spirit and Time).

I dunno, it just seems like a part of the series that could have been expanded upon but never was (with the exception of GT. But even then, it was only used as a way to get to another SSJ level).

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:34 pm

While Vegeta retained his self, I first assumed it was another one of the things that separated the Saiyan peasants from the elite.

SuperSaiyan3Goku · Post by **SuperSaiyan3Goku** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:11 pm

Super Sonic wrote:While Vegeta retained his self, I first assumed it was another one of the things that separated the Saiyan peasants from the elite.

That could actually be true. We were told that the "Elite" Saiyans were more powerful than the "lower-class". Well, then why didn't Goku as a SSJ4, who is clearly more powerful than Vegeta in the Saiyan saga, lose his mind? Oh, that's right, the makers of GT forgot everything from Z.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:37 pm

SuperSaiyan3Goku wrote:That could actually be true. We were told that the "Elite" Saiyans were more powerful than the "lower-class". Well, then why didn't Goku as a SSJ4, who is clearly more powerful than Vegeta in the Saiyan saga, lose his mind? Oh, that's right, the makers of GT forgot everything from Z.

Goku didn't lose his mind as a SSJ4 because he regained his rationality as a Golden Oozaru, which hence led to his SSJ4 transformation. If anything, SSJ4 Goku seems to be the embodiment of Goku's rationality and the Saiyan bloodlust of what the infant head-bump suppressed (that being Kakarrot). This is very evident considering Goku has no qualms with killing Bebi after he abandons Vegeta, where any other time, he'd let the villain go hoping the battle experience would change him (Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza, somewhat with Buu in asking for him to be reincarnated). Goku openly admits to one of the dark dragons that his inhibitions are greatly lowered in the state, which is probably due to him physically being a cross between his Oozaru form and his adult body at its best, and the Oozaru form is a state Goku never truly got under control. I mean when Pan is absorbed by Qi Xing Long, Goku still beats the living hell out of him and comes damn near close to killing him, thereby also nearly killing Pan (keep in mind, this was a moment where the fate of the Dragonballs was uncertain, so Goku had no clue if he could even wish her back). I think it's clear Super Saiyan 4 is an equivalent state of mind to what Goku was at after he first became a Super Saiyan against Freeza, though Goku is much more calm and less struggling with his personal morals.

KinoFourpaws · Post by **KinoFourpaws** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:45 pm

SuperSaiyan3Goku wrote:
Super Sonic wrote:While Vegeta retained his self, I first assumed it was another one of the things that separated the Saiyan peasants from the elite.
That could actually be true. We were told that the "Elite" Saiyans were more powerful than the "lower-class". Well, then why didn't Goku as a SSJ4, who is clearly more powerful than Vegeta in the Saiyan saga, lose his mind? Oh, that's right, the makers of GT forgot everything from Z.

Actually, I believe Saiyans like Vejita being able to control themselves in their transformed state is due to receiving training to do so at a young age. All Saiyans are usually trained as such, not just the elites, am I correct? The fact that Goku and Gohan never got any such training due to having spent their whole lives on Earth seems the most reasonable explanation behind their lack of control as Oozaru (and since, like DaemonCorps said, the form was never expounded upon in DBZ past the Vejita arc, they never again needed to use it, so they probably didn't receive any sort of training from Vejita afterwards, either).

I agree with you about the idea, Daemon. Further inclusion of the Oozaru transformation would have been something I'd very much have liked to see. Maybe it's because I have some weird fascination with people changing into beasts, but whatever... I'd've loved to see that used more often in the storyline. :<

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:47 pm

KinoFourpaws wrote:I agree with you about the idea, Daemon. Further inclusion of the Oozaru transformation would have been something I'd very much have liked to see. Maybe it's because I have some weird fascination with people changing into beasts, but whatever... I'd've loved to see that used more often in the storyline. :<

Well, as obvious as I'm sure this is, there's always GT.

KinoFourpaws · Post by **KinoFourpaws** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:56 pm

Conan the SSJ wrote:
KinoFourpaws wrote:I agree with you about the idea, Daemon. Further inclusion of the Oozaru transformation would have been something I'd very much have liked to see. Maybe it's because I have some weird fascination with people changing into beasts, but whatever... I'd've loved to see that used more often in the storyline. :<
Well, as obvious as I'm sure this is, there's always GT.

Yeah, I know, and it being included there was pretty cool; but even with GT, I don't feel there was nearly enough emphasis on the form's use. I'm not saying that Toriyama should have used Oozaru just as much as the Super Saiyajin (Gah, I'm switching between spellings! Nawg! D: ) form was used (abused?) in the later parts of it, but I'd've liked it if he used it in DBZ at least once or twice outside of the Vejita arc. That would have satisfied me, at least.

DaemonCorps · Post by **DaemonCorps** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:21 pm

Well, what I don't like about how GT handled the whole Oozaru thing is that that form wasn't even a goal for the characters to reach. Throughout the series, the Saiyajin characters (for the most part) continue training for the sake of getting stronger and, as mentioned in the Cell Saga, to surpass the SSJ1 level. The characters never really thought of the Oozaru form as something they could actually use to their advantage.

And even when it was brought up in GT, they took a more different route than I'd've expected and kinda "cheated" to bring up Oozarus (what with Goku's tail being pulled out with pliers and Vegeta using Bulma's machine).

I would have liked some kind of explanation for why/how their tails grew back. For example, it was never revealed as to how Kami was able to permanently remove Goku's tail.

As for the whole Saiyajin royalty being stronger (at least at first) I figured it was because they were either kept on Planet Vegeta, where the gravity was way more than Earth's, or because they were sent to planets of the same or heavier gravity than Planet Vegeta's.

KinoFourpaws wrote: [...] I don't feel there was nearly enough emphasis on the form's use. I'm not saying that Toriyama should have used Oozaru just as much as the Super Saiyajin (Gah, I'm switching between spellings! Nawg! D: ) form was used (abused?) in the later parts of it, but I'd've liked it if he used it in DBZ at least once or twice outside of the Vejita arc.

Yeah. Maybe at least once more just to answer all the questions surrounding the Oozaru form, but not to the point that a Super Oozaru 3 form was attainable. :/

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:05 am

Couldn't whoever they're doing it against just destroy the moon? I mean, this is what I'm seeing:

VEGETA: And true Saiyans can concentrate their energy to perfectly simulate the light of the moon!
CELL: Eh?
VEGETA: Burst and mix!
VEGETA: Perfect, huh... you'll be sorry...
CELL: ...
CELL: *destroys moon orb*
VEGETA:

CELL: Haha, Super Vegeta.

It would probably take like one second to slice off the tail, too.

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:30 am

What if Cell had a tail and looked at the full moon?

Magica · Post by **Magica** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:35 am

Castor Troy wrote:What if Cell had a tail and looked at the full moon?

You'd think that with having Saiyajin cells/dna in his body, he would have that ability.

(Correct me if I'm wrong. It's been ages since I've watched it).

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:36 am

Well, he can do a Genki Dama and go SSJ. He just doesn't have a tail.

EDIT: Er, wait. A saiyan tail.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:59 am

Well, technically, it is a Saiyan tail (just no fur and shaped/formed differently). Then again, it's also part of the race of Freeza's and King Cold's. We gotta keep in mind, Cell has many DNA extracts from the Saiyans. Those included are Goku, Vegeta, Nappa, and (anime-only I think) Gohan. Maybe if there were a Bruitz Wave absorbing situation, he'd transform into a crazy form of his own.

?

What we gotta keep in mind is Cell is the clone-embodiment of a multiple number of warriors in the series, those of which are: King Cold, Freeza, Vegeta, Goku, Nappa, Piccolo, (anime-only from this point I think) Gohan, Tien, Kuririn, Yamcha, and 6 Saibamen.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:41 am

Y'know, in the Manga, do we ever see an adult Saiyan's tail grow back? That would explain Goku's "permanant" removal and Vegeta never getting it back. That also means that Vegeta was a moron when he expected it to grow back.

sailorspazz · Post by **sailorspazz** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:02 am

Yeah, I kind of got the impression that adults (for whatever reason) couldn't regrow their tails. Maybe the tail can only grow back if the body itself is still growing (though Vegeta did seem to get a bit taller after his initial appearance, but I think that has more to do with Toriyama-sensei's changing drawing style).

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:23 am

*Beware, big rant involving the anime, GT, and a movie; oh my!

sailorspazz wrote:Yeah, I kind of got the impression that adults (for whatever reason) couldn't regrow their tails. Maybe the tail can only grow back if the body itself is still growing (though Vegeta did seem to get a bit taller after his initial appearance, but I think that has more to do with Toriyama-sensei's changing drawing style).

This would seem to make some sense later in the Saiyan/Vegeta saga and in GT as well. Piccolo seemingly removes Gohan's tail permanently (twice in the anime!) and he still grows it back in the final showdown with Vegeta (and, for those like myself whom see movie 5 in anime continuity, during the 3 year training gap at some point). Also, later in GT, it's implied that the reason the Kaioshins try regrowing Goku's tail is because he's a child again, so because the Super Saiyan 3 form's power is extremely limited, they figured on going toward a positive perk on Goku being reverted.

Obviously Bebi-Vegeta, as well as Vegeta in his pure state later on, couldn't regrow his tail without the influence of an overcharged amount of Bruitz Waves concentrated directly on him. I seem to recall after Vegeta reverted from SSJ4 to normal during the battle with Super Yi Xing Long, his tail disappeared as well. This may help support the idea that even a force-grown tail can't last on an adult Saiyan, only if it's their original tail (though Goku could apparently keep his since his transformation was more natural and he was a child, though he'd lose it after departing with Shenlong). This may have something to do with Raditz's reluctance to cut his own tail off the first time Goku restrained him for Piccolo's attack, since his Oozaru form was his biggest advantage in battle and he had no idea that adult Saiyans could grow them back (but apparently Vegeta thought they could).

Soluzar · Post by **Soluzar** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:28 am

If not for Vegeta's one line where he said it would grow back, there would be no real reason for doubt. Adult Saiyajin as a rule do not grow their tails back. The events of Dragon Ball GT are a clear exception, since they had to go to extraordinary lengths to regrow their tails.

The thing that always puzzled me about the tail is why it comes off so easily. Piccolo barely even pulls Gohan's tail in order to remove it. It seems to come away as though it were never really connected. The first time Goku lost his tail it was because Puar transformed into a pair of scissors and snipped it off. Have you ever had a pet with a tail? I've never tried cutting a tail, admittedly, but those things are fairly solid. They have a bone running through, which seems to imply to me that they wouldn't be so easy to remove.

Of course that's looking too deeply, so I don't ascribe any significance to that at all. It's just interesting the way it was portrayed.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:34 am

Piccolo is pretty strong, remember. How much effort did it take for Grandpa SonGohan to remove Goku's tail in their fight? No harder to remove than Nail's arm... Meh.

I... don't remember when Vegeta said his tail would grow back. Other than that, there isn't any evidence that it would for an adult. And I still will not believe that Goten and Trunks were born without tails until ... you know, I don't want to see what I'd have to see to know that, so I just won't believe it.

gohanku · Post by **gohanku** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:39 am

I would love to see the Oozaru form used more, Vegeta could show them how to control it and I would love to see more Oozaru related attacks like Goku's Oozaru Fist.

The S · Post by **The S** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:38 am

I've always liked the Oozaru forms more than the Super Saiya-jin, and find that they are HORRIBLY underused. Which is why I was so ecstatic to learn of the multiple Oozaru in Sparking! NEO (despite them sharing mostly the same pool of moves - Baby's is the only one with ANY unique moves).

That being said, Toriyama-sensei himself once said that Son Goten and Trunks were not born with tails.