Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Chiki]

Black was a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku, per Trunks' statement. It's clear from the first fight with SSJ2 Goku that both were holding back. Beyond SSJ3 there is only SSB. So Black was between 3 and Blue then powered up to the point he rivals SSB Vegeta in just base from just fighting a SSJ2 Goku, meaning the gap between 3 and Blue can't be that large. If this doesn't prove there is no two base theory in the anime and that Goku and Vegeta are just super freaking strong, I don't know what will.

Base Goku < SSJ Goku < SSJ2 Trunks < Zamasu < SSJ2 Goku ~ Base Black < SSJ3 Goku ~ Base Black full power < improved Base Black < SSB Goku < SSR Black.

Um.. no. There's evidence that SSB Vegeta was holding back quite a bit just a couple posts above you (SSR Black was surprised by SSB Vegeta right after fighting him in Base. The only way that makes sense is if he was holding back).

[Lupin879]

Wait ! SSGSS does not have regeneration and the SSG has the regeneration?

[Chiki]

Oh yeah, I just watched the ep with subs and Black says he got stronger from Vegeta beating the shit out of him.

Thanks Vegeta. You made Cell and Buu and now Black stronger.

[Saiyan007]

Wait ! SSGSS does not have regeneration and the SSG has the regeneration?

To be fair SSG regeneration took a while to kick in Vegeta dropped right out of the form so I guess the regeneration didn't have time to kick in.

[apex_pretador]

So it goes like :

Whis
Beerus / Champa
KK x10 goku
SSR Black / hit
SSB Vegeta
SSB Vegeta (not all out)
Base black (powered up) , SSG
.
Black (pre power up) , SS3 goku
SS2 goku / Black in past
SS2 trunks full power, Zamasu
SS Goku / vegeta
SS Trunks
SS Cabba
Frost
Base goku / vegeta
.
SS3 gotenks
Buu
Piccolo
SPC

[ssbgoku]

So it goes like :

Whis
Beerus / Champa
KK x10 goku
SSR Black / hit
SSB Vegeta
SSB Vegeta (not all out)
Base black (powered up) , SSG
.
Black (pre power up) , SS3 goku
SS2 goku / Black in past
SS2 trunks full power, Zamasu
SS Goku / vegeta
SS Trunks
SS Cabba
Frost
Base goku / vegeta
.
SS3 gotenks
Buu
Piccolo
SPC

disagree, to me more like this:

Whis
Beerus / Champa
SSR Black
SSB Vegeta/ssb goku
hit
golden frieeza
SSB Vegeta (not all out)
Base black (powered up) , SSG
.
Black (pre power up) , SS3 goku
SS2 goku / Black in past
SS2 trunks full power, Zamasu
SS Goku / vegeta
SS Trunks
SS Cabba
Frost
Base goku / vegeta
.
SS3 gotenks
Buu
Piccolo
SPC

[apex_pretador]

So it goes like :

Whis
Beerus / Champa
KK x10 goku
SSR Black / hit
SSB Vegeta
SSB Vegeta (not all out)
Base black (powered up) , SSG
.
Black (pre power up) , SS3 goku
SS2 goku / Black in past
SS2 trunks full power, Zamasu
SS Goku / vegeta
SS Trunks
SS Cabba
Frost
Base goku / vegeta
.
SS3 gotenks
Buu
Piccolo
SPC

disagree, to me more like this:

Whis
Beerus / Champa
SSR Black
SSB Vegeta/ssb goku
hit
golden frieeza
SSB Vegeta (not all out)
Base black (powered up) , SSG
.
Black (pre power up) , SS3 goku
SS2 goku / Black in past
SS2 trunks full power, Zamasu
SS Goku / vegeta
SS Trunks
SS Cabba
Frost
Base goku / vegeta
.
SS3 gotenks
Buu
Piccolo
SPC

You forgot KK x10?

[ssbgoku]

So it goes like :

Whis
Beerus / Champa
KK x10 goku
SSR Black / hit
SSB Vegeta
SSB Vegeta (not all out)
Base black (powered up) , SSG
.
Black (pre power up) , SS3 goku
SS2 goku / Black in past
SS2 trunks full power, Zamasu
SS Goku / vegeta
SS Trunks
SS Cabba
Frost
Base goku / vegeta
.
SS3 gotenks
Buu
Piccolo
SPC

disagree, to me more like this:

Whis
Beerus / Champa
SSR Black
SSB Vegeta/ssb goku
hit
golden frieeza
SSB Vegeta (not all out)
Base black (powered up) , SSG
.
Black (pre power up) , SS3 goku
SS2 goku / Black in past
SS2 trunks full power, Zamasu
SS Goku / vegeta
SS Trunks
SS Cabba
Frost
Base goku / vegeta
.
SS3 gotenks
Buu
Piccolo
SPC

You forgot KK x10?

I am just not accepting this until I see it being used again I just consider it one thing stuff hapening, so that it.

[TheMikado]

Black was a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku, per Trunks' statement. It's clear from the first fight with SSJ2 Goku that both were holding back. Beyond SSJ3 there is only SSB. So Black was between 3 and Blue then powered up to the point he rivals SSB Vegeta in just base from just fighting a SSJ2 Goku, meaning the gap between 3 and Blue can't be that large. If this doesn't prove there is no two base theory in the anime and that Goku and Vegeta are just super freaking strong, I don't know what will.

Base Goku < SSJ Goku < SSJ2 Trunks < Zamasu < SSJ2 Goku ~ Base Black < SSJ3 Goku ~ Base Black full power < improved Base Black < SSB Goku < SSR Black.

I agree with this, which is what's super weird but that's how he anime presents it so that's what it is. I've been theorizing since Trunks vs Blugeta that SSB wasn't much stronger than SSJ3 in the anime. If Trunks has the same manga ability of powering up to near SSJ3 levels than things make a lot more sense as to why he could survive a strong Black or spar with SSB.

[Hugo Boss]

For me, it was pretty clear that Vegeta was about to finish Black off when he was took off-guard. Even if Black powered-up from Vegeta's fight, it seems Goku can still do something in the next episode.

And I don't think we can say Zamasu is stronger than Trunks yet. It seems he has become immortal due to some misterious stuff, which will probably be explained.

[Bullza]

So just to rewind back a bit, I rewatched the Goku vs Hit fight like I said I would and yeah...without the time skip ability Hit appears to be weaker than SSJB Goku though not by any significant amount of anything.

He doesn't power up throughout the fight, he just increases how long he can stop time and that is the only reason he's able to put up a fight even after Goku uses Kaioken.

The only real question about it is why Hit was able to withstand punches from Goku like that but whatever, Goku is clearly packing more power because Hit landed a barrage on Goku and then Goku punched Hit once and seemed to do more damage to him.

So...if Hit fought Golden Frieza and he wasn't able to use his time skip then Golden Frieza could probably beat him right? Though of course with the time skip he'd defeat him as easily as he did Vegeta I suppose.

[ssbgoku]

So just to rewind back a bit, I rewatched the Goku vs Hit fight like I said I would and yeah...without the time skip ability Hit appears to be weaker than SSJB Goku though not by any significant amount of anything.

He doesn't power up throughout the fight, he just increases how long he can stop time and that is the only reason he's able to put up a fight even after Goku uses Kaioken.

The only real question about it is why Hit was able to withstand punches from Goku like that but whatever, Goku is clearly packing more power because Hit landed a barrage on Goku and then Goku punched Hit once and seemed to do more damage to him.

So...if Hit fought Golden Frieza and he wasn't able to use his time skip then Golden Frieza could probably beat him right? Though of course with the time skip he'd defeat him as easily as he did Vegeta I suppose.

I agree and I think so as well ;p, however at the same time I try to forget about kkx10 ssb even happeining, but even if I had to deal with it, I can see goku easily decreasing kaioken to x2 after using powerfull kamehameha which Hit has never planned to even block or something, just powering up his time skip ability to maximum level so he barerly escapes. Another fact is that als goku may be loosing power in fast way with each second passed especially after kamehameha unleashed...

[buutenks]

So just to rewind back a bit, I rewatched the Goku vs Hit fight like I said I would and yeah...without the time skip ability Hit appears to be weaker than SSJB Goku though not by any significant amount of anything.

He doesn't power up throughout the fight, he just increases how long he can stop time and that is the only reason he's able to put up a fight even after Goku uses Kaioken.

The only real question about it is why Hit was able to withstand punches from Goku like that but whatever, Goku is clearly packing more power because Hit landed a barrage on Goku and then Goku punched Hit once and seemed to do more damage to him.

So...if Hit fought Golden Frieza and he wasn't able to use his time skip then Golden Frieza could probably beat him right? Though of course with the time skip he'd defeat him as easily as he did Vegeta I suppose.

He wouldnt be able to since, Freeza would run out of steam before he could finish off Hit.

From the fight. Seems Black Rose is a bit stronger than ssj blue. Kinda like how Golden Freeza was above ssj blue.

And from NEP, seems Goku is able to hold his own vs Black Rose.

So ignoring kkx10, since it obviously is just fun filler.

My numbers would be based of the Toriyama scale as follows:

Whis 15
Beerus 10
Black Rose 9
Golden Freeza/ssj Blue 8.5
Black 6

[TheMikado]

^ that would imply Goku > Vegeta. I guess I'll just wait and see. I need the manga version ASAP

[DBZ Macky]

So just to rewind back a bit, I rewatched the Goku vs Hit fight like I said I would and yeah...without the time skip ability Hit appears to be weaker than SSJB Goku though not by any significant amount of anything.

He doesn't power up throughout the fight, he just increases how long he can stop time and that is the only reason he's able to put up a fight even after Goku uses Kaioken.

The only real question about it is why Hit was able to withstand punches from Goku like that but whatever, Goku is clearly packing more power because Hit landed a barrage on Goku and then Goku punched Hit once and seemed to do more damage to him.

So...if Hit fought Golden Frieza and he wasn't able to use his time skip then Golden Frieza could probably beat him right? Though of course with the time skip he'd defeat him as easily as he did Vegeta I suppose.

He wouldnt be able to since, Freeza would run out of steam before he could finish off Hit.

From the fight. Seems Black Rose is a bit stronger than ssj blue. Kinda like how Golden Freeza was above ssj blue.

And from NEP, seems Goku is able to hold his own vs Black Rose.

So ignoring kkx10, since it obviously is just fun filler.

My numbers would be based of the Toriyama scale as follows:

Whis 15
Beerus 10
Black Rose 9
Golden Freeza/ssj Blue 8.5
Black 6

Super Saiyan Rose Black is leagues above Super Saiyan Blue IMO. We can't really trust the NEPs, I don't really understand why Black Goku can't be on par with Kaioken x10 Goku. I wonder how Toei is gonna explain Goku not using the Kaio-ken in such a dire situation. Also, How is Vegeta "Just a warm-up" when he's in the same ballpark as Goku? I'm guessing Goku would need to use Kaioken or Fusion to stand even a sliver of chance against Black, The fight's gonna be SUPER long just like Goku VS Beerus and Goku & Vegeta VS Frieza so I can see it going atleast ~3 episodes. That's enough time for Black to dominate Goku only for him to pull out some special secret weapon. Currently, I'm going with SSJR Goku Black being 10x stronger than SSJB Goku & Vegeta.

[ssbgoku]

^ that would imply Goku > Vegeta. I guess I'll just wait and see. I need the manga version ASAP

Why bold part ;p ?, I don't see any issue with that. Can you elaborate if you mean just at current situation or back then against hit ?

[Bullza]

I can see goku easily decreasing kaioken to x2 after using powerfull kamehameha which Hit has never planned to even block or something

Well I saw something about that which got me thinking. This was mentioned on the DB wiki and also VSbattles but essentially this is Goku using the Kaioken at first.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And this is Goku when specifically using Kaioken x10.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

He used the latter briefly at the start and when he fired the Kamehameha but he never looked like that in the following episode.

So is that an animation thing or was Goku no longer using Kaioken x10 after the Kamehameha but the regular Kaioken and that's why the fight was a little closer as it should be.

[TheMikado]

^ that would imply Goku > Vegeta. I guess I'll just wait and see. I need the manga version ASAP

Why bold part ;p ?, I don't see any issue with that. Can you elaborate if you mean just at current situation or back then against hit ?

The current I guess, although it really just seems like Goku is written stronger than Vegeta in all these arcs.

[ssbgoku]

I can see goku easily decreasing kaioken to x2 after using powerfull kamehameha which Hit has never planned to even block or something

Well I saw something about that which got me thinking. This was mentioned on the DB wiki and also VSbattles but essentially this is Goku using the Kaioken at first.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And this is Goku when specifically using Kaioken x10.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

He used the latter briefly at the start and when he fired the Kamehameha but he never looked like that in the following episode.

So is that an animation thing or was Goku no longer using Kaioken x10 after the Kamehameha but the regular Kaioken and that's why the fight was a little closer as it should be.

Exactly just see example of goku fighting against Freeza. Until King Kai didn't say it we didn't have any idea of goku already using kaioken x10. Anyway Hit being suprised by kkx2 then stating he can improve too would go well with hit holding his own against kkx2 with his time skip ability improved. Goku using kkx10 only for kamehameha makes great sense with it too... so I will go by that.

[buutenks]

Super Saiyan Rose Black is leagues above Super Saiyan Blue IMO. We can't really trust the NEPs, I don't really understand why Black Goku can't be on par with Kaioken x10 Goku. I wonder how Toei is gonna explain Goku not using the Kaio-ken in such a dire situation. Also, How is Vegeta "Just a warm-up" when he's in the same ballpark as Goku? I'm guessing Goku would need to use Kaioken or Fusion to stand even a sliver of chance against Black, The fight's gonna be SUPER long just like Goku VS Beerus and Goku & Vegeta VS Frieza so I can see it going atleast ~3 episodes. That's enough time for Black to dominate Goku only for him to pull out some special secret weapon. Currently, I'm going with SSJR Goku Black being 10x stronger than SSJB Goku & Vegeta.

Well, unless Goku shows kkx10in the next upcoming episodes. There is no reason to place Black Rose so high.

He is simply stronger than ssj blue, but not many times stronger. For now anyways.