Lord Beerus wrote:Black and Zamasu are most definitely not the same person judging from the latest episode of Super. The theory that Black was created by Zamasu is dead in th ware for because nothing indicates that Black is Zamasu's creation. I know will point to the fact the Black and Zamasu have similar ki being a strong indication of that, but just because they have similar ki doesn't mean that Zamasu created Black, I think it just means that they have similar ki. That's it. They're most like implying that Black and Zamasu both have Goldy ki more than anything given how strong Black is and the position of Kaioshin that Zamasu has which grants him access to Goldy ki. It seems more like Goku Black and Zamasu just know each other and and are just associates working together because they have the same goal and ideal of hating mortals and wanting to wipe them all out.
This doesn't make sense to me but maybe you can help me out here.
What do you mean implying they both have Godly Ki in this sense? They may both have God Ki but its never stated to be similar in feeling to other God Ki. I don't see how Whis would know Black had similar Ki to a random Kaioshin in training from u10 if thebonly similarity is God Ki.
Did you mean something different?
Currently watching: My Hero Academia
Last watched: Akame Ga Kill, Hokuto No Ken, Hokuto No Ken 2, Hunter X Hunter
Quote if I were to Hakai someone: "Omae Wa Mou Shindeiru. Hakai!"
Lord Beerus wrote:Black and Zamasu are most definitely not the same person judging from the latest episode of Super. The theory that Black was created by Zamasu is dead in th ware for because nothing indicates that Black is Zamasu's creation. I know will point to the fact the Black and Zamasu have similar ki being a strong indication of that, but just because they have similar ki doesn't mean that Zamasu created Black, I think it just means that they have similar ki. That's it. They're most like implying that Black and Zamasu both have Goldy ki more than anything given how strong Black is and the position of Kaioshin that Zamasu has which grants him access to Goldy ki. It seems more like Goku Black and Zamasu just know each other and and are just associates working together because they have the same goal and ideal of hating mortals and wanting to wipe them all out.
This doesn't make sense to me but maybe you can help me out here.
What do you mean implying they both have Godly Ki in this sense? They may both have God Ki but its never stated to be similar in feeling to other God Ki. I don't see how Whis would know Black had similar Ki to a random Kaioshin in training from u10 if thebonly similarity is God Ki.
Did you mean something different?
What I mean is that, given that were under the impression that Black and Zaamsu have similar ki, and know that the only kind of ki that Zamasu can have, given that he is Kaioshin, is God ki, this would mean that Black would have Goldly ki too. It's especially more apparent given that in Black's SSJR form was able to do some major damage to SSJB Vegeta.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
-a reanimated corpse that Zamasu imbued with some of his own ki.
Or
-a Gokû from another timeline that he's corrupted.
Spoiler:
"So...Bulma would be cool with you telling her?" Jaco asked.
Kuririn peered out from between his fingers, glowering at him, "You're telling her."
"Like hell I am!"
"Well I'm not doing it!"
"You're the arresting officer!"
"And you're the guy who let them run off!"
"If you think I could've stopped either of them you're highly overestimating my skills and for that I applaud how well you think of me. As I'll think of you from the safety of someplace far far away." Jaco was halfway to climbing out the window.
"Get back here!" Kuririn got to his feet.
"So long, arm of the law!"
Chuquita wrote:-a reanimated corpse that Zamasu imbued with some of his own ki.
Zombie Goku Black? Just wait until Rick and his gang find out about him.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
What if Black is in love with Zamas and he is using this as an adventage to persuade Black to do what he wants? That would explain the rosé and all the "I'm faboulous, bitch" attitude. I'm just kidding. But that would be really cool, lol.
Well, if anyone here has read the Dragon Ball doujin that was made by Toyotaro (aka Toyble) in the past, you will note a lot of similarities between this arc and the Xicor arc. The most prominent of all, the Kai who turns evil and the Clone of Goku.
If Toyotaro helped Toriyama to build this arc as much as it seems, I think Black was made based on the DNA of the real Goku. Somehow, Zamas got it and created his own Goku. The reason why Black knows many techniques of Goku, may be because he keeps his "fighting memory", but not his memories. I don't know if what I said makes sense, but whatever...
Last edited by CrimsonYouth on Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CrimsonYouth wrote:Well, if anyone here has read the Dragon Ball doujin that was made by Toyotaro (aka Toyble) in the past, you will note a lot of similarities between this arc and the Xicor arc. The most prominent of all, the Kai who turns evil and the Clone of Goku.
If Toyotaro helped Toriyama to build this arc as much as it seems, I think Black was made based on the DNA of the real Goku. Somehow, Zamas got it and created his own Goku. The reason why Black knows many techniques of Goku, may be because he keeps his "fighting memory", but not his memories. I don't known if what I said makes sense, but whatever...
It might just be coincidence. Toriyama didn't mention getting any help other than the anime staff nudged him in this direction.
CrimsonYouth wrote:Well, if anyone here has read the Dragon Ball doujin that was made by Toyotaro (aka Toyble) in the past, you will note a lot of similarities between this arc and the Xicor arc. The most prominent of all, the Kai who turns evil and the Clone of Goku.
If Toyotaro helped Toriyama to build this arc as much as it seems, I think Black was made based on the DNA of the real Goku. Somehow, Zamas got it and created his own Goku. The reason why Black knows many techniques of Goku, may be because he keeps his "fighting memory", but not his memories. I don't known if what I said makes sense, but whatever...
It might just be coincidence. Toriyama didn't mention getting any help other than the anime staff nudged him in this direction.
Coincidence or not its till a good idea, though I prefer the way the Super has done it. Also Am I the only on who finds it ironic that in the anime our heroes are fighting against rogue gods while in Heroes they are fighting demons all of which revolves around time travel.
Anyone here hoping it's Goten that was taken by Zamasu to be raised as a "GOD" and since Zamasu can't directly kill anyone because he's a Kaioshin he has a mortal do his bidding by purging all the unworthy mortals for him?
SaiyanSoul wrote:Anyone here hoping it's Goten that was taken by Zamasu to be raised as a "GOD" and since Zamasu can't directly kill anyone because he's a Kaioshin he has a mortal do his bidding by purging all the unworthy mortals for him?
Me! Although I won't get my hopes up for Goten, it'd be a cool twist.
Well, I surmise it's Goku. I mean, he's never called himself Black. He said he's Son Goku.
My guesses:
A. Obvious answer - Zamasu learned the time ring was created from Future Trunks' timeline. After betraying Gowasu and possibly killing him, he uses the time ring to take control of Goku's corpse, possibly using the potara to imbue him with his own ki, thoughts, and overall essence. So in a sense, Black is an incarnation of Zamasu who has full control of Goku's body and memories.
B. Far-fetched answer - Zamasu raised Goku. As in, he went back in time, kidnapped baby Goku before he arrived on Earth, and raised him to be an enforcer of his views on humanity.
C. Boring answer - Zamasu simply created Black. He's a kaioshin, after all.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
SaiyanSoul wrote:Anyone here hoping it's Goten that was taken by Zamasu to be raised as a "GOD" and since Zamasu can't directly kill anyone because he's a Kaioshin he has a mortal do his bidding by purging all the unworthy mortals for him?
The main problem I see with the Goten theory is that he is not a pure saiyan. And you will ask: So what?
The thing is that the hairstyle of the pure Saiyans stays the same through their lives. But the ones who aren't pure have to cut or arrange it, because it grows. We have living examples like Gohan or Trunks. Even in EoZ, when Goten was some years older, he had a different hairstyle to Goku. So, Black being Goten makes zero sense.
Besides, I think Black, despite having the appearance of Goku, is some kind of God. Not only because the things he says, but also because the ki he has is similar to Zamasu's. He is not merely a Goku, but a Goku with God powers. I think if Zamasu created or revived him somehow, he infused on him part of his powers.
CrimsonYouth wrote:The thing is that the hairstyle of the pure Saiyans stays the same through their lives. But the ones who aren't pure have to cut or arrange it, because it grows. We have living examples like Gohan or Trunks. Even in EoZ, when Goten was some years older, he had a different hairstyle to Goku. So, Black being Goten makes zero sense.
Goten had different hair at the 28th, because he was getting confused for Goku all the time, so he changed it. As far as we know, his hair would have been exactly the same as Goku's, if he didn't do anything to it.
- Black is indeed Goku, but he became evil because of Zamasu and corrupted when he became a God. He sees himself as a different being from Goku but he can use all his techniques, including the ability to transform into a SSJ. This Goku is either from FT Timeline (hinted when he touched his heart after the first battle against Goku) or from one of the other timelines, maybe the timeline that got saved by the Future Trunks Cell killed in his timeline? In that timeline Goku could have grown as strong if not stronger than he grew in our timeline and Zamasu could have used one of the green rings to get to that timeline. Everything points out to Black being Goku as stated in the manga, Bulma herself dubbed him Goku Black, and Trunks wonders if she knew something he didn't. That line must mean something, maybe Bulma didn't tell Trunks because she feared what his reaction would have been. But the line is absent from the anime so it could as well mean nothing.
- Black is Goten, kidnapped and raised by Zamasu to become a Kaioshin, that's why he is a God and possesses God Ki and that's also why he shows respect for Zamasu. He is not his puppet though. Black sees Goku, his father, as his goal, that's why he has so much respect for him, but he acknowledges his father is just a mere mortal. Black thinks of himself as a higher creature so defines Trunks as the latest of Saiyans. His genes being half Saiyan could also explain why is Super Saiyan form mixed with God Ki gives him Rose hair. It's possible Trunks might achieve the same form in the near future and that's why is hair was changed to be blue?
Another possible reason of why Black could be Goten is because we have seen Goten in the picture at the beginning of each episode with Goku, Black, Mai, Trunks and Zamasu and Kid Trunks, Goten and the Pilaf Gang too, even though Goten has only appeared in one episode since the beginning of this arc. Strange isn't it? So I think he will have some sort of role, but that could also mean nothing.
Our theories will probably turn out to be all wrong or partially wrong, and that's why I'm loving DBS.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
What I consider canonical
Spoiler:
Dragon Ball Manga
Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman
Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return
Additional lore from Toriyama
Daima
Battle of Gods
emperior wrote:Our theories will probably turn out to be all wrong or partially wrong, and that's why I'm loving DBS.
That's Dragon Ball Super's greatest attribute for being an anime and not based off a manga, you never know what's gonna happen next. Even with the leaked episode titles and summaries, you never know how exactly the plot will unfold.
I initially though that Zamasu created Black, but after the latest episode, I'm starting to think that a third party may be involved in this whole Goku Black fiasco. I think he/she/it used to be a Kaioshin from Universe 10 and in the years working as a Kaioshin in that universe only saw the very worst in mortals/humans and knew Zamasu on a personal level and would influence Zamasu's own opinion on mortals as he/she/it would constantly rant to Zamasu on how mortals and humans were worthless beings that needed to be wiped out for the sake of the universe. In the process, that Kaioshin went rouge and travelled to other universes looking for an immensely strong being to aid him/her/it in their cause or wiping out all mortals and humans and came across the ideal being in Goku from another timeline in Universe 7, Potara fused with Goku or infused their soul and being into Goku's body and Goku Black was born.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
emperior wrote:Our theories will probably turn out to be all wrong or partially wrong, and that's why I'm loving DBS.
That's Dragon Ball Super's greatest attribute for being an anime and not based off a manga, you never know what's gonna happen next. Even with the leaked episode titles and summaries, you never know how exactly the plot will unfold.
I initially though that Zamasu created Black, but after the latest episode, I'm starting to think that a third party may be involved in this whole Goku Black fiasco. I think he/she/it used to be a Kaioshin from Universe 10 and in the years working as a Kaioshin in that universe only saw the very worst in mortals/humans and knew Zamasu on a personal level and would influence Zamasu's own opinion on mortals as he/she/it would constantly rant to Zamasu on how mortals and humans were worthless beings that needed to be wiped out for the sake of the universe. In the process, that Kaioshin went rouge and travelled to other universes looking for an immensely strong being to aid him/her/it in their cause or wiping out all mortals and humans and came across the ideal being in Goku from another timeline in Universe 7, Potara fused with Goku or infused their soul and being into Goku's body and Goku Black was born.
Still can't be a fusion. Black looks exactly like Goku. Also, Black knows too many things like not being surprised at Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, knowing who Vegeta is, knowing that Trunks was a Saiyan on sight despite Saiyan and humans looking alike, and he knows Goku's techniques. Black also tries a little too hard to impressed Goku.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
I'm just waiting for confirmation that he is Zamasu's creation based on Goku, because he was the strongest human Zamasu faced.
Black is not Goku, but he recognizes him as the one to aspire to, and seems to hold some sort of respect for him, despite Goku just being a human, so I just assume that respect comes from Black partly owing his existence to Goku.
fadeddreams5 wrote:Well, I surmise it's Goku. I mean, he's never called himself Black. He said he's Son Goku.
My guesses:
A. Obvious answer - Zamasu learned the time ring was created from Future Trunks' timeline. After betraying Gowasu and possibly killing him, he uses the time ring to take control of Goku's corpse, possibly using the potara to imbue him with his own ki, thoughts, and overall essence. So in a sense, Black is an incarnation of Zamasu who has full control of Goku's body and memories.
B. Far-fetched answer - Zamasu raised Goku. As in, he went back in time, kidnapped baby Goku before he arrived on Earth, and raised him to be an enforcer of his views on humanity.
C. Boring answer - Zamasu simply created Black. He's a kaioshin, after all.
Or, the twist answer, Goten is sick of having no identity and decides to steal his father's and destroy Humanity
why do people think black is goten? Goten was never born in trunks timeline as he was conceived during the 7 day break before the cell games. Goku died months before that
