"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Patrolman Jaco]

I think that Toyataro is a pretty good fight artist, but the reason Toriyama's look better is because of how much more intense they look. Toyataro's can be more dynamic than Toriyama's, but the frequent plain white backgrounds, lack of action lines, pretty generic looking sound effects, etc. make his look a little more boring.

Not sure I follow Toyotaro's backgrounds are probably better than anything in the original manga, the backgrounds in the original were always pretty void especially during fight scenes. I mean, isn't Dragon Ball notorious for the overuse of deserted wastelands as settings for the fights? Also confused as to how sound effects in manga can make a fight more interesting, but the sound effects used in the Vegeta vs Magetta are more unique than any of the sound effects I remember from Toriyama. As for action lines they're plastered all over Toyotaro's fight scenes.

[buutenks]

I read or viewed a few chapters yesterday from the DBZ manga, and now the db super chapter 15. And something feels different.

Maybe its nostalgia, but when i read the DBZ manga, i feel joy and all peaceful inside and when i read the DBS manga, it makes me feel hollow and a bit sad.

[mikey4111]

Thank you. It appears that Trunks started at a level above SS2 Gohan in order to show Goku his original SS2 level from when he obtained the form, and then powered up to the level he reached after further training. So, this has nothing to do with Vegeta's rage boost, or any mastery of the SS2 form.

So the Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta's syndrome (which allows him to surpass Super Saiyan 3 Goku) is a genetic trait and Trunks got it too, huh? That's... Uhm... What!?

Trunks not only surpassed Movie 14's Super Saiyan 3 Goku, as he is equal to Future Trunks' saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku too? Okay then.

No, Trunks reached that level because he is a Saiyan Halfling, so he is much more gifted than Goku & Vegeta, and he trained his ass for over a decade

? If anything, it can be understood as a statement in favor of the FPSS2 theory, and a counterargument to the rage SS2 boost, since he wasn't satisfied with the usual SS2 power and wanted to ascend, much like how Vegeta wasn't satisfied with the SS power in the Android arc and wanted to ascend. The parallels are pretty clear.

The parallels aren't clear at all. You're saying that it makes sense for a FPSS2 to surpass a SS3. But when Gohan first used SS2 he far surpassed a FPSS. If a FPSS can't surpass a SS2 then a FPSS2 shouldn't be able to surpass a SS3.

[LightBing]

The parallels aren't clear at all. You're saying that it makes sense for a FPSS2 to surpass a SS3. But when Gohan first used SS2 he far surpassed a FPSS. If a FPSS can't surpass a SS2 then a FPSS2 shouldn't be able to surpass a SS3.

Mastered SSJ surpassed SSJ Grade I and Grade II(technically). Imagine SSJ3 as SSJ2 Grade I. While SSJ and SSJ2 were never described as having flaws, besides the common aspects of SSJ. Grade I had a slight decrease in speed, Grade II had a major decrease in speed and SSJ3 had major ki consumption.
That's the parallel.

[mikey4111]

The parallels aren't clear at all. You're saying that it makes sense for a FPSS2 to surpass a SS3. But when Gohan first used SS2 he far surpassed a FPSS. If a FPSS can't surpass a SS2 then a FPSS2 shouldn't be able to surpass a SS3.

Mastered SSJ surpassed SSJ Grade I and Grade II(technically). Imagine SSJ3 as SSJ2 Grade I. While SSJ and SSJ2 were never described as having flaws, besides the common aspects of SSJ. Grade I had a slight decrease in speed, Grade II had a major decrease in speed and SSJ3 had major ki consumption.
That's the parallel.

The major ki consumption just means that he can't use the form as long. That flaw didn't come into play at all when Goku sparred with Trunks. A FPSS2 should only be at the highest SS2 tier and below SS3. Just like how a FPSS is the highest tier of SS and below SS2. And I'm pretty sure Goku was already a FPSS2 in the Buu Saga because Vegeta was assumed to already have the SS2 and even after the Majin Boost he still was only even with Goku. So I always just considered Goku to have mastered the SS2 form and thus be a FPSS2. That's why I don't get how Trunks in his SS2 form can surpass SS3 Goku who has been training non-stop just like Trunk and yet even had training from Whis.

[Pannaliciour]

True but didn't Vegeta surpassed Goku also in BOG?

[LightBing]

The major ki consumption just means that he can't use the form as long. That flaw didn't come into play at all when Goku sparred with Trunks. A FPSS2 should only be at the highest SS2 tier and below SS3. Just like how a FPSS is the highest tier of SS and below SS2. And I'm pretty sure Goku was already a FPSS2 in the Buu Saga because Vegeta was assumed to already have the SS2 and even after the Majin Boost he still was only even with Goku. So I always just considered Goku to have mastered the SS2 form and thus be a FPSS2. That's why I don't get how Trunks in his SS2 form can surpass SS3 Goku who has been training non-stop just like Trunk and yet even had training from Whis.

This is my last post about this in this thread, it's starting to get off-topic. We can continue in the Power level thread.

Major ki consumption is still a flaw, which makes it an imperfect form. Against Trunks, Goku was transformed for like a second. Note that Trunks isn't actually said to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku, only comparable. Altought if they fought in those forms due to the flaw, Trunks was likely to come on top.
In the Boo Arc Goku and Vegeta are barely above Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan, in no way have they mastered the form.

They just took different roads and ended up in about the same place, Goku got SSJ3 while Trunks improved SSJ2 because he wasn't able to get SSJ3 or didn't discovered it like Goku did.

[ParkerAL]

Not sure I follow Toyotaro's backgrounds are probably better than anything in the original manga, the backgrounds in the original were always pretty void especially during fight scenes. I mean, isn't Dragon Ball notorious for the overuse of deserted wastelands as settings for the fights?

[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

I enjoy Toyotaro's chapters, but I can't think of anything he does better than Toriyama, backgrounds included.

[Drayenko]

So what you're saying is Goku and Vegeta wasted 7 years of training.

[Nejishiki]

So what you're saying is Goku and Vegeta wasted 7 years of training.

You could say Gohan at the Cell Games set the standard too high. It doesn't have to be at the detriment of the characters.

[Drayenko]

I'm saying in relation to Trunks.

[Cipher]

I read or viewed a few chapters yesterday from the DBZ manga, and now the db super chapter 15. And something feels different.

Maybe its nostalgia, but when i read the DBZ manga, i feel joy and all peaceful inside and when i read the DBS manga, it makes me feel hollow and a bit sad.

I can see that. There's a warm, detailed quality to Toriyama's art I don't think Toyotarou has ever quite captured.

And while I'm glad the Super manga's around, it does show artifacts of being promotional, even in the Universe 6 arc, particularly with its quick pacing. That can be hard to ignore.

[Neon Z]

And while I'm glad the Super manga's around, it does show artifacts of being promotional, even in the Universe 6 arc, particularly with its quick pacing. That can be hard to ignore.

Aside from the epilogue, I think the manga's pacing benefited the story. It makes no sense to waste two episodes with the Magetta battle and treat it as a dramatic event when Vegeta is heavily holding back during it. The manga going with a faster pacing, and basically treating it as a joke fits much better. Aside from that, only the epilogue really was rushed, but that happened a couple of times in the original manga too. Although I guess not even giving a full page to Super Shenlong was kind of odd.

As a writer, I saw a lot of people, who followed his previous works (fanmanga in majority), saying that he's bad at that. Unfortunately I didn't have an overall view or a detailled opinion.

It's surprising when I see efforts he brings to make his version of Dragon Ball Super this coherent, and more logic to my sens than the anime version.

People seem to ignore that with DBAF he was putting a lot of effort to tie together existing rumors and designs into a single story, aside from a few details like 17 reappearing alive, or the Z Sword keeping Xicor sealed for a while. A lot of his story was just piercing together different AF rumors together, not something actually created from zero by him. In fact, nowadays some people seem to believe that he was the creator of Xicor, SSJ5 and such when that wasn't the case at all.

[Cipher]

Aside from the epilogue, I think the manga's pacing benefited the story. It makes no sense to waste two episodes with the Magetta battle and treat it as a dramatic event when Vegeta is heavily holding back during it. The manga going with a faster pacing, and basically treating it as a joke fits much better. Aside from that, only the epilogue really was rushed, but that happened a couple of times in the original manga too. Although I guess not even giving a full page to Super Shenlong was kind of odd.

Yeah, there are times I think it's worked in the manga's favor and created a more Toriyama-like experience. The fight against Magetta is definitely one. There are others though, including some of the aftermath of Goku's fight with Frost and the end of the arc, that definitely feel the effects of compression.

Overall, it's a somewhat uneven experience. The pacing isn't always detrimentally quick, I suppose, but it does tend to remind you it isn't a stand-alone product.

[LightBing]

There's a different pace to this arc, there's no rushing at all. The manga scrapped it's way to 39 pages per chapter, it is earned.

I'm curious about the Gohan episode, I suspect it's a Toei nod to the fans of the character. Can't wait for Goku Black vs Goku, round 1. The explanation to Black's ability might generate some discussion. I suspect Mr.Toriyama didn't elaborate much, we might face another SSJG vs Kaioken x10 SSJB scenario.

[Cipher]

I'm curious about the Gohan episode, I suspect it's a Toei nod to the fans of the character.

I can't imagine we'll get all the character interactions the anime gave us; space is at way too high a premium in a monthly manga that can't fall too far behind the TV version.

I'll be curious to see how Toyotarou handles that though. Meeting Gohan seems like a low-hanging fruit, and Toyotarou is a fan of having characters reference their histories. Asking about Gohan -- his former master and the strongest guy on Earth the last time he was in the present -- is a fairly believable thing for Trunks to do.

[Patrolman Jaco]

I enjoy Toyotaro's chapters, but I can't think of anything he does better than Toriyama, backgrounds included.

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For the record, while I disagree that the backgrounds in the original manga are superior to those in the DBS manga, I do agree overall that Toriyama is a better artist than Toyotaro, I just didn't agree with the claims that Toyotaro lacked certain aspects in his art like action lines, backgrounds etc.

[Chelentano]

I don't know how Toriyama or Toyotaro usually work in regards of backgrounds, but mangakas (generally speaking) have assistants for backgrounds and such.

[buutenks]

I bet you, Goku vs Black in the manga, will be as different as Hit vs Goku.

[ekrolo2]

Toriyama was more than capable of drawing good backgrounds, he just gives up on doing so about the time Goku fights Piccolo in the tournament. I'd also say Toyotaro draws characters consistently well too whereas Toriyama gets REALLY rough and downright lazy with them during the Boo Saga. So yeah, Toriyama is an overall better artist I think but Toyotaro has him beaten in certain areas.