Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

So how does everyone reconcile Goku and Vegeta's base powers in Super? I mean you have Goku going toe to toe with Final Form Freeza in base in one arc, but then in the Universe 6 and Future Trunks arcs they aren't implied to be that powerful. I mean Goku needed SSJ to beat Final Form Frost, who then had a difficult fight with Piccolo. I know Frost was stated to have lost stamina, but at worst he's maybe at 50%, which means base Goku and Piccolo shouldn't be drastically different. And this is even after Goku has trained for 3 more years in the RoSaT since fighting Freeza. I'm just at a loss when it comes scaling and interested to hear theories.

Talking about the manga, I have Base Goku at around SSJ Vegeta from the Cell Games. I reached this conclusion by assuming that in all these years since the Cell Games Piccolo has gotten stronger, to level close to SSJ Goku from the Cell Games. Since I have Base Goku a bit weaker than current Piccolo, it's all about power-scaling.

[DanielSSJ]

So how does everyone reconcile Goku and Vegeta's base powers in Super? I mean you have Goku going toe to toe with Final Form Freeza in base in one arc, but then in the Universe 6 and Future Trunks arcs they aren't implied to be that powerful. I mean Goku needed SSJ to beat Final Form Frost, who then had a difficult fight with Piccolo. I know Frost was stated to have lost stamina, but at worst he's maybe at 50%, which means base Goku and Piccolo shouldn't be drastically different. And this is even after Goku has trained for 3 more years in the RoSaT since fighting Freeza. I'm just at a loss when it comes scaling and interested to hear theories.

There is the ever controversial (and poorly named) "two base" theory, or the idea that Goku and Vegeta can choose whether or not they access God Ki in their normal forms, which is explained more thoroughly here.

Either that or say that Super is a hot mess in regards to the details and stop caring. That's what I do.

[Hugo Boss]

I think Piccolo gets way too credit for not really accomplish anything. There was a large gap between him and Frost. While he was always on the defensive, his stamina burned quickier than Frost's, who was already worn out from fighting Goku. I don't know if that's enough to compare him to the Saiyans. I like to think that since that was a tournament, the characters tend to be more careful about the rules, thus making the fights last longer than they should.

[Kaboom]

There is the ever controversial (and poorly named) "two base" theory, or the idea that Goku and Vegeta can choose whether or not they access God Ki in their normal forms, which is explained more thoroughly here.

Either that or say that Super is a hot mess in regards to the details and stop caring. That's what I do.

I'm pretty much in the same boat on both counts. I like the idea that Goku and Vegeta's godly ki is a separate reserve that they can tap into when they choose. They can either use some of it mixed with their normal power to enhance it, which results in a stronger base form that can still be sensed. Or they can use Super Saiyan to channel all of it, which results in Super Saiyan Blue which can't be sensed because the godly ki has completely taken over.

It's a bit indirect, but in lieu of any actual official explanation it's what lets the series make the most sense in my eyes.

[DanielSSJ]

I'm pretty much in the same boat on both counts. I like the idea that Goku and Vegeta's godly ki is a separate reserve that they can tap into when they choose. They can either use some of it mixed with their normal power to enhance it, which results in a stronger base form that can still be sensed. Or they can use Super Saiyan to channel all of it, which results in Super Saiyan Blue which can't be sensed because the godly ki has completely taken over.

It's a bit indirect, but in lieu of any actual official explanation it's what lets the series make the most sense in my eyes.

There is a third option I've seen popping up. Many of the readers of the manga by Toyotaro have taken it that, since the Resurrection F arc was glossed over, Goku and Vegeta don't have a mega-powerful base form and that, outside their God forms, they aren't massively stronger than they were in the Boo arc.

[ZombieVito]

I think Piccolo gets way too credit for not really accomplish anything. There was a large gap between him and Frost. While he was always on the defensive, his stamina burned quickier than Frost's, who was already worn out from fighting Goku. I don't know if that's enough to compare him to the Saiyans. I like to think that since that was a tournament, the characters tend to be more careful about the rules, thus making the fights last longer than they should.

Huh? He almost beat Frost with the Makankosappo and smarts.

Frost needed to cheat to win. That's really impressive.

[Kaboom]

There is a third option I've seen popping up. Many of the readers of the manga by Toyotaro have taken it that, since the Resurrection F arc was glossed over, Goku and Vegeta don't have a mega-powerful base form and that, outside their God forms, they aren't massively stronger than they were in the Boo arc.

Yeah, that would make some sense and keep things even cleaner. It doesn't work at all for the messy anime version of Super, but I suppose really is just fine for the manga.

If I ever manage to finish GTR (Ha) and am crazy enough to move on to a "Super Revised" after that (HA), I may do something like that to keep the narrative and power rankings nice and smooth.

[Hugo Boss]

I think Piccolo gets way too credit for not really accomplish anything. There was a large gap between him and Frost. While he was always on the defensive, his stamina burned quickier than Frost's, who was already worn out from fighting Goku. I don't know if that's enough to compare him to the Saiyans. I like to think that since that was a tournament, the characters tend to be more careful about the rules, thus making the fights last longer than they should.

Huh? He almost beat Frost with the Makankosappo and smarts.

Frost needed to cheat to win. That's really impressive.

That was in the anime and even there it's implied makankosappo is way above Piccolo's limits. If he had not trapped Frost, it would be useless either. While in the anime Frost cheated because he needed, in the manga it's implied he cheated because Piccolo was a stubborn one to defeat, he was dragging the fight for very long. I don't think he did anything impressive. Frost had to be weakened in order to this fight happen in the first place and Piccolo never landed a single blow, he could only avoid being hit and defend himself with his arms.

[ZombieVito]

I think Piccolo gets way too credit for not really accomplish anything. There was a large gap between him and Frost. While he was always on the defensive, his stamina burned quickier than Frost's, who was already worn out from fighting Goku. I don't know if that's enough to compare him to the Saiyans. I like to think that since that was a tournament, the characters tend to be more careful about the rules, thus making the fights last longer than they should.

Huh? He almost beat Frost with the Makankosappo and smarts.

Frost needed to cheat to win. That's really impressive.

That was in the anime and even there it's implied makankosappo is way above Piccolo's limits. If he had not trapped Frost, it would be useless either. While in the anime Frost cheated because he needed, in the manga it's implied he cheated because Piccolo was a stubborn one to defeat, he was dragging the fight for very long. I don't think he did anything impressive. Frost had to be weakened in order to this fight happen in the first place and Piccolo never landed a single blow, he could only avoid being hit and defend himself with his arms.

Goku said he had zero chance to win and he almost proved him wrong with skill, smarts and the Makankosappo. That is impressive.

Hell, the mere fact Frost couldn't escape his hold is impressive as hell. The fight proved power is not everything on a fight. It was really refreshing, for that the anime fight is one of my favorites of the entire series and it still breaks my heart Frost cheated Piccolo out of the win.

On the other hand the manga fight is complete and utter shit. A complete insult to Piccolo fans.

[DanielSSJ]

If I ever manage to finish GTR (Ha) and am crazy enough to move on to a "Super Revised" after that (HA), I may do something like that to keep the narrative and power rankings nice and smooth.

I hope you do continue. Your writing is great and there is a stark lack of Dragon Ball fan-fiction that properly captures the tone of the series.

[apex_pretador]

So how does everyone reconcile Goku and Vegeta's base powers in Super? I mean you have Goku going toe to toe with Final Form Freeza in base in one arc, but then in the Universe 6 and Future Trunks arcs they aren't implied to be that powerful. I mean Goku needed SSJ to beat Final Form Frost, who then had a difficult fight with Piccolo. I know Frost was stated to have lost stamina, but at worst he's maybe at 50%, which means base Goku and Piccolo shouldn't be drastically different. And this is even after Goku has trained for 3 more years in the RoSaT since fighting Freeza. I'm just at a loss when it comes scaling and interested to hear theories.

Slightly above buuhan, below vegetto.

[Floader]

So how does everyone reconcile Goku and Vegeta's base powers in Super? I mean you have Goku going toe to toe with Final Form Freeza in base in one arc, but then in the Universe 6 and Future Trunks arcs they aren't implied to be that powerful. I mean Goku needed SSJ to beat Final Form Frost, who then had a difficult fight with Piccolo. I know Frost was stated to have lost stamina, but at worst he's maybe at 50%, which means base Goku and Piccolo shouldn't be drastically different. And this is even after Goku has trained for 3 more years in the RoSaT since fighting Freeza. I'm just at a loss when it comes scaling and interested to hear theories.

Slightly above buuhan, below vegetto.

So you think there base power is that strong in the U6 arc? They don't come across as that powerful in my opinion

[ZombieVito]

So how does everyone reconcile Goku and Vegeta's base powers in Super? I mean you have Goku going toe to toe with Final Form Freeza in base in one arc, but then in the Universe 6 and Future Trunks arcs they aren't implied to be that powerful. I mean Goku needed SSJ to beat Final Form Frost, who then had a difficult fight with Piccolo. I know Frost was stated to have lost stamina, but at worst he's maybe at 50%, which means base Goku and Piccolo shouldn't be drastically different. And this is even after Goku has trained for 3 more years in the RoSaT since fighting Freeza. I'm just at a loss when it comes scaling and interested to hear theories.

Slightly above buuhan, below vegetto.

So you think there base power is that strong in the U6 arc? They don't come across as that powerful in my opinion

Copy Vegeta beat SSJ3 Gotenks fairly easy in base. They are strong.

[Hugo Boss]

Huh? He almost beat Frost with the Makankosappo and smarts.

Frost needed to cheat to win. That's really impressive.

That was in the anime and even there it's implied makankosappo is way above Piccolo's limits. If he had not trapped Frost, it would be useless either. While in the anime Frost cheated because he needed, in the manga it's implied he cheated because Piccolo was a stubborn one to defeat, he was dragging the fight for very long. I don't think he did anything impressive. Frost had to be weakened in order to this fight happen in the first place and Piccolo never landed a single blow, he could only avoid being hit and defend himself with his arms.

Goku said he had zero chance to win and he almost proved him wrong with skill, smarts and the Makankosappo. That is impressive.

Hell, the mere fact Frost couldn't escape his hold is impressive as hell. The fight proved power is not everything on a fight. It was really refreshing, for that the anime fight is one of my favorites of the entire series and it still breaks my heart Frost cheated Piccolo out of the win.

On the other hand the manga fight is complete and utter shit. A complete insult to Piccolo fans.

As a non-fan of Piccolo, I can understand why the manga depicted that fight differently. The strategy Piccolo used in the anime seems amazing, but very forced in its execution. Frost should be able to easily escape that hold, since he was at Super Saiyan level despite his loss of stamina. The manga seems more realistic, because it implies Piccolo never had a chance against a Saiyan level fighter, let alone a Super Saiyan.

[DanielSSJ]

Okay, so I've been revising my power levels and I really wanted to include power levels for the entire manga. Problem is, the officially given numbers for the bits before the Saiyan arc don't really match up with certain power statements for that period. An infamous example being this.

Chapter: 143, P12.3
Context: Piccolo continues to outclass Goku
Piccolo: “Hohhohhoh…You have no chance of winning, no matter how you struggle, and you can’t run away either. It seems all that’s left for you is the road to death. I’m still not even putting out half of my power. Too bad for you…so then, what will you do?”

However, the officially given numbers peg pre-Super God Water Goku as being 180 and Young King Piccolo being 260, which is blatantly contradictory. So do I shrug my shoulders and use the official numbers anyway or do I scrap them and pick some that match up with the manga quotes and implications? However, I think I found a solution that works with both the manga and the official numbers and it comes from here.

In the early portions of Dragon Ball, the characters’ training focused mostly on increasing their physical strength and stamina, but from the time of Goku’s training under God and onwards, much more focus began to be placed on cultivating ki. [ ] While at the start of the series ki-based attacks were considered very advanced and rarely seen (Kame-Sen’nin says it took him 50 years to invent the Kamehameha), as the characters’ ki power increased, they became able to perform ki-based attacks with greater and greater ease, to the point where the generic ki blast became a standard attack.

Simply put, during the early portions of the series, characters weren't able to draw forth the full measure of their Ki, or at least, to the extent that they can during the later portions of the series. Ki control is horribly rare an is usually used in special techniques, like the Kamehameha, Dodonpa, Bukujutsu, etc. However, at some point (most likely after the charatcers get trained by God and Mr. Popo), characters learn to use their Ki much more freely, to enhance their strength, speed, and durability in the heat of battle. Ki blasts are thrown around like confetti.

But that hasn't happened yet. My idea is that, at this point in the narrative, Goku and friends can only draw forth their full power whilst using their special techniques. So while, Goku's maximum power may be 180, the power that he's capable of using in normal combat is decidedly lower. Let's say, his resting power his half that at 90. On the other hand, King Piccolo (who likely remembers the training that the Son of Katatz received from the previous God) can utilize his Ki to the fullest. This is somewhat supported by how in the same V-Jump scan that provides the 180 and 260 numbers, also pegs 18-year-old Goku as being 910, which is a lot larger than the 416 number had had during his fight with Raditz, but slightly less than the 924 number that he had whilst using the Kamehameha. Anyway, those are my thoughts, anyone else have something to say on the subject?

[apex_pretador]

Okay, so I've been revising my power levels and I really wanted to include power levels for the entire manga. Problem is, the officially given numbers for the bits before the Saiyan arc don't really match up with certain power statements for that period. An infamous example being this.

Chapter: 143, P12.3
Context: Piccolo continues to outclass Goku
Piccolo: “Hohhohhoh…You have no chance of winning, no matter how you struggle, and you can’t run away either. It seems all that’s left for you is the road to death. I’m still not even putting out half of my power. Too bad for you…so then, what will you do?”

However, the officially given numbers peg pre-Super God Water Goku as being 180 and Young King Piccolo being 260, which is blatantly contradictory. So do I shrug my shoulders and use the official numbers anyway or do I scrap them and pick some that match up with the manga quotes and implications? However, I think I found a solution that works with both the manga and the official numbers and it comes from here.

In the early portions of Dragon Ball, the characters’ training focused mostly on increasing their physical strength and stamina, but from the time of Goku’s training under God and onwards, much more focus began to be placed on cultivating ki. [ ] While at the start of the series ki-based attacks were considered very advanced and rarely seen (Kame-Sen’nin says it took him 50 years to invent the Kamehameha), as the characters’ ki power increased, they became able to perform ki-based attacks with greater and greater ease, to the point where the generic ki blast became a standard attack.

Simply put, during the early portions of the series, characters weren't able to draw forth the full measure of their Ki, or at least, to the extent that they can during the later portions of the series. Ki control is horribly rare an is usually used in special techniques, like the Kamehameha, Dodonpa, Bukujutsu, etc. However, at some point (most likely after the charatcers get trained by God and Mr. Popo), characters learn to use their Ki much more freely, to enhance their strength, speed, and durability in the heat of battle. Ki blasts are thrown around like confetti.

But that hasn't happened yet. My idea is that, at this point in the narrative, Goku and friends can only draw forth their full power whilst using their special techniques. So while, Goku's maximum power may be 180, the power that he's capable of using in normal combat is decidedly lower. Let's say, his resting power his half that at 90. On the other hand, King Piccolo (who likely remembers the training that the Son of Katatz received from the previous God) can utilize his Ki to the fullest. This is somewhat supported by how in the same V-Jump scan that provides the 180 and 260 numbers, also pegs 18-year-old Goku as being 910, which is a lot larger than the 416 number had had during his fight with Raditz, but slightly less than the 924 number that he had whilst using the Kamehameha. Anyway, those are my thoughts, anyone else have something to say on the subject?

One more thing that might support your point is that kamehameha is stated to release all the energy at once by concentrating it, plus this way you can also solve the issue of yamcha, krillin and tien being stronger than king piccolo.

[LightBing]

Okay, so I've been revising my power levels and I really wanted to include power levels for the entire manga. Problem is, the officially given numbers for the bits before the Saiyan arc don't really match up with certain power statements for that period. An infamous example being this.

Chapter: 143, P12.3
Context: Piccolo continues to outclass Goku
Piccolo: “Hohhohhoh…You have no chance of winning, no matter how you struggle, and you can’t run away either. It seems all that’s left for you is the road to death. I’m still not even putting out half of my power. Too bad for you…so then, what will you do?”

However, the officially given numbers peg pre-Super God Water Goku as being 180 and Young King Piccolo being 260, which is blatantly contradictory. So do I shrug my shoulders and use the official numbers anyway or do I scrap them and pick some that match up with the manga quotes and implications? However, I think I found a solution that works with both the manga and the official numbers and it comes from here.

In the early portions of Dragon Ball, the characters’ training focused mostly on increasing their physical strength and stamina, but from the time of Goku’s training under God and onwards, much more focus began to be placed on cultivating ki. [ ] While at the start of the series ki-based attacks were considered very advanced and rarely seen (Kame-Sen’nin says it took him 50 years to invent the Kamehameha), as the characters’ ki power increased, they became able to perform ki-based attacks with greater and greater ease, to the point where the generic ki blast became a standard attack.

Simply put, during the early portions of the series, characters weren't able to draw forth the full measure of their Ki, or at least, to the extent that they can during the later portions of the series. Ki control is horribly rare an is usually used in special techniques, like the Kamehameha, Dodonpa, Bukujutsu, etc. However, at some point (most likely after the charatcers get trained by God and Mr. Popo), characters learn to use their Ki much more freely, to enhance their strength, speed, and durability in the heat of battle. Ki blasts are thrown around like confetti.

But that hasn't happened yet. My idea is that, at this point in the narrative, Goku and friends can only draw forth their full power whilst using their special techniques. So while, Goku's maximum power may be 180, the power that he's capable of using in normal combat is decidedly lower. Let's say, his resting power his half that at 90. On the other hand, King Piccolo (who likely remembers the training that the Son of Katatz received from the previous God) can utilize his Ki to the fullest. This is somewhat supported by how in the same V-Jump scan that provides the 180 and 260 numbers, also pegs 18-year-old Goku as being 910, which is a lot larger than the 416 number had had during his fight with Raditz, but slightly less than the 924 number that he had whilst using the Kamehameha. Anyway, those are my thoughts, anyone else have something to say on the subject?

My advice is to ignore any "official" numbers that don't come directly from Mr.Toriyama. It's better to came up with numbers on your own, therefore trying to make sense of the author's logic. Than trying to make sense of a random person logic, of their interpretation of the author logic.

[DanielSSJ]

My advice is to ignore any "official" numbers that don't come directly from Mr.Toriyama. It's better to came up with numbers on your own, therefore trying to make sense of the author's logic. Than trying to make sense of a random person logic, of their interpretation of the author logic.

Generally speaking, I prefer to include as many official numbers as I can as long as there's nothing blatantly contradicting the manga. If I can make them work, I will. You just have to be creative about it, which is the original purpose of this thread.

This obviously excludes things like those movie pamphlets that stick Commander Red at 100 for reasons I shouldn't have to explain.

[LightBing]

My advice is to ignore any "official" numbers that don't come directly from Mr.Toriyama. It's better to came up with numbers on your own, therefore trying to make sense of the author's logic. Than trying to make sense of a random person logic, of their interpretation of the author logic.

Generally speaking, I prefer to include as many official numbers as I can as long as there's nothing blatantly contradicting the manga. If I can make them work, I will. You just have to be creative about it, which is the original purpose of this thread.

This obviously excludes things like those movie pamphlets that stick Commander Red at 100 for reasons I shouldn't have to explain.

You asked if you should scrap the official numbers or not, I offered my input. With enough creativity we can make anything work, even the pamphlets numbers which you disregard, even thou they are in the same category of "blatantly contradictory" as you putted it.

At least you're offering a reason for these numbers, which is more than any of these official numbers do. I disagree with your theory, if you can remember any statement from the manga which points towards this limited ki use, let me know and I'll ruminate on it. It's far too important to have never been mentioned, which is why I think it isn't sound.
Besides the head-scratcher that is Goku going only from 910 to 924 in three years, when Piccolo was still an active threat.

[Rubens]

My advice is to ignore any "official" numbers that don't come directly from Mr.Toriyama. It's better to came up with numbers on your own, therefore trying to make sense of the author's logic. Than trying to make sense of a random person logic, of their interpretation of the author logic.

Generally speaking, I prefer to include as many official numbers as I can as long as there's nothing blatantly contradicting the manga. If I can make them work, I will. You just have to be creative about it, which is the original purpose of this thread.

This obviously excludes things like those movie pamphlets that stick Commander Red at 100 for reasons I shouldn't have to explain.

You asked if you should scrap the official numbers or not, I offered my input. With enough creativity we can make anything work, even the pamphlets numbers which you disregard, even thou they are in the same category of "blatantly contradictory" as you putted it.

I second this. On the list in still working on I decided to fully ignore any numbers outside the manga (and the anime), even the so called "official" material not only because they come from (a) different author(s), but also because they frequently conflict with the original source. So this is my logic: either you include all numbers from the guides or none at all, because it's just convinient to pick the numbers you feel that make more sense. Don't get me wrong I applaud your iniciative, but I think the point of estimating powerlevels is to do so as if reading those characters using scouters, and it's your personal estimation.

On a second note, I believe that ki-based attacks have different readings from the ammount of ki the fighter has, simply because techniques gather ki in order to be used and they don't necessarily comply with the character's power numberwise. That's just interpretation though, I'm still working on it.