Black is an awesome character! And so is Zamasu

[GodVegetto91]

I've always been fond of villains. But when they actually have a legitimate reason for their acts it makes everything that much better. Black has awesome facial expressions. And he's deliciously evil aswell. Furthermore he really seems "motivated" towards his acts. And this brings us back to Zamasu..
WHEN have we EVER had a character that we could actually witness turning evil!?? And who ACTUALLY has a legitimate reason for turning evil! It actually justifies his evil tendencies! Zamasu has given all the reasons for why humans are a failure. And they're good reasons aswell. We've never had this before. Whenever i see Black i can see the "motivation" in his eyes!

[Lord Beerus]

I actually made a comment in regards to my current impressions of Goku Black Zamasu in another thread and I'm gonna be a lazy bastard and just paste it into this thread:

Goku Black has been a fantastic villain in all accounts from his personality to Nozawa sensational performance of him. I'm also extremely very intrigued by the development of Zamasu and his descending morality. He's the first villain(?) introduced in the franchise that doesn't have a shallow motivation or purpose. What Dragon Ball has always been desperately lacking in is a complex villain, and so far, the groundwork for Zamasu being the three dimensional villain that the franchise has really needed has been laid out brilliantly. Now it's just up to Toei and Toriyama to make sure they don't drop the ball with this guy. If they nail the execution and payoff of the reveal of Goku Black's true identity, I strongly believe he will go down as one of the best villains the franchise has ever had. And it's remarkable that it could lead to that for me, considering I practically groaned at the idea of "Evil Goku" in Super. They have really manged to make it work so far.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Black is an avatar at this point, there isn't much to sat there. Zamasu, though, has been spot on. The show mitigates his being thrust upon us by putting him at a defining point in his life in his kaioshin training, and we're actually building up to his crash at a slow enough pace that we can get a touch of suspense out of it- imagine if Freeza had had that kind of escalation.

[Xeztin]

I actually made a comment in regards to my current impressions of Goku Black Zamasu in another thread and I'm gonna be a lazy bastard and just paste it into this thread:

Goku Black has been a fantastic villain in all accounts from his personality to Nozawa sensational performance of him. I'm also extremely very intrigued by the development of Zamasu and his descending morality. He's the first villain(?) introduced in the franchise that doesn't have a shallow motivation or purpose. What Dragon Ball has always been desperately lacking in is a complex villain, and so far, the groundwork for Zamasu being the three dimensional villain that the franchise has really needed has been laid out brilliantly. Now it's just up to Toei and Toriyama to make sure they don't drop the ball with this guy. If they nail the execution and payoff of the reveal of Goku Black's true identity, I strongly believe he will go down as one of the best villains the franchise has ever had. And it's remarkable that it could lead to that for me, considering I practically groaned at the idea of "Evil Goku" in Super. They have really manged to make it work so far.

I just love how we have an evil Kaioshin!

[GodKaio-Ken]

I actually don't think Zamasu has been handled well at all honestly. His interactions with Gowasu feel very wrong and it seems odd a master wouldn't be in touch with how his student feels. We go from Zamasu being a normal guy who contemplates the meaning of justice to a guy who is blatantly evil just from sparring Goku? Oh and visiting one planets future? IMO His character feels rushed and forced and I'm not too interested in him.

Black however has been handled flawlessly, again just my opinion.

[kinisking]

I actually don't think Zamasu has been handled well at all honestly. His interactions with Gowasu feel very wrong and it seems odd a master wouldn't be in touch with how his student feels. We go from Zamasu being a normal guy who contemplates the meaning of justice to a guy who is blatantly evil just from sparring Goku? Oh and visiting one planets future? IMO His character feels rushed and forced and I'm not too interested in him.

Black however has been handled flawlessly, again just my opinion.

Think deeper. Zamasu is a guy who doesn't like violence and is untrusting of mortals. He considers himself superior also.Here comes a mortal that loves to fight and is pushy even to the gods that he should be respecting. Goku is basically exactly what he hates. With people like Goku, the violence won't stop. Of course, Goku's violence is good willed but Zamasu doesn't really know Goku. What he does know is that he's a mortal and he's seen how evil mortals can be. If that isn't bad enough, Goku BEATS Zamasu in a fight. Zamasu is a god, and not only a god but an extremely talented one. For a mortal to beat him, is huge. This shows the potential of the mortals that Zamasu distrusts. It's better to wipe them out while he still can! So that already makes his conviction stronger. Then, he sees planet Babari and a mortal dares to try to kill him? A god that they should be respecting? This time he was able to defend himself, but what if they keep getting stronger like Goku? That's enough reason to start wiping them out. You got to remember, he's probably been watching mortals for a long time. He was a kaio before this. He's probably seen thousands of planets in wars.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I actually don't think Zamasu has been handled well at all honestly. His interactions with Gowasu feel very wrong and it seems odd a master wouldn't be in touch with how his student feels. We go from Zamasu being a normal guy who contemplates the meaning of justice to a guy who is blatantly evil just from sparring Goku? Oh and visiting one planets future? IMO His character feels rushed and forced and I'm not too interested in him.

Black however has been handled flawlessly, again just my opinion.

Think deeper. Zamasu is a guy who doesn't like violence and is untrusting of mortals. He considers himself superior also.Here comes a mortal that loves to fight and is pushy even to the gods that he should be respecting. Goku is basically exactly what he hates. With people like Goku, the violence won't stop. Of course, Goku's violence is good willed but Zamasu doesn't really know Goku. What he does know is that he's a mortal and he's seen how evil mortals can be. If that isn't bad enough, Goku BEATS Zamasu in a fight. Zamasu is a god, and not only a god but an extremely talented one. For a mortal to beat him, is huge. This shows the potential of the mortals that Zamasu distrusts. It's better to wipe them out while he still can! So that already makes his conviction stronger. Then, he sees planet Babari and a mortal dares to try to kill him? A god that they should be respecting? This time he was able to defend himself, but what if they keep getting stronger like Goku? That's enough reason to start wiping them out. You got to remember, he's probably been watching mortals for a long time. He was a kaio before this. He's probably seen thousands of planets in wars.

Trust me when I say I get all that. I just believe it was written in a rushed way that made his development and character interactions hard to believe. It also makes it hard to believe absolutely no-one recognizes his potential for evil. If I was training a Kaio to become a Kaioshin and he killed someone I'd immediately report it to my superiors or at the very least punish him greatly. Not be like "Hey brah how bout some tea?"

[Nejishiki]

Gowasu is a model Kaioshin. He's just as flawed as his pure dedication to his philosophy, observation. He's also trying to lead Zamasu towards the right path. He may personally fail Zamasu in his assessment later in the story. I don't think it's fair to say he's allowing anything to happen. So far, he has observed and attempted to lead him into the right path. Obviously, he's failing at this, but his intentions are there and it's a bit ill-spirited to blame his character for what Zamasu does.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Frankly, I see it as baby steps. Dragon Ball has never been a series to break down character motivations and deviations at length, so if introducing Gowasu and Zamasu on the note of a clash of their core characters is what it takes to get that into the story, so be it. GodKaio isn't wrong, just likely expecting too much relative to the habits of the series.

[z_cherub]

Zamasu has been refreshing. Have other IPs written motivation for evil much better than this? Absolutely - but this is big for DB (taking the time to explain why a bad guy does evil things as opposed to just being evil because they are).

Black - he's cool, but he's a pretty weak character at this point. He may be great, but we'll have to wait for the plot to actually show us some of his personality besides *evil grin*, *I'm great*, *I hate saiyajin*. Right now, he's just a generic bad guy with little motivation who's only distinguishing feature is looking like Goku. Ingested to see where it goes...

[HeroR]

Zamasu has been refreshing. Have other IPs written motivation for evil much better than this? Absolutely - but this is big for DB (taking the time to explain why a bad guy does evil things as opposed to just being evil because they are).

Black - he's cool, but he's a pretty weak character at this point. He may be great, but we'll have to wait for the plot to actually show us some of his personality besides *evil grin*, *I'm great*, *I hate saiyajin*. Right now, he's just a generic bad guy with little motivation who's only distinguishing feature is looking like Goku. Ingested to see where it goes...

Black has motive. He wants to rid the universe of all humans and create an utopia, just like Zamasu. He also doesn't specifically hate Saiyans nor does he really brag about his greatness outside of his Super Saiyan Rose transformation.

Trust me when I say I get all that. I just believe it was written in a rushed way that made his development and character interactions hard to believe. It also makes it hard to believe absolutely no-one recognizes his potential for evil. If I was training a Kaio to become a Kaioshin and he killed someone I'd immediately report it to my superiors or at the very least punish him greatly. Not be like "Hey brah how bout some tea?"

But Zamasu doesn't thinking he's evil. To him, he's doing the gods' work by killing the sinful mortal who are the evil ones. Also, Gowasu is the superior since the Supreme Kais rule over their universe and are equals to the Gods of Destruction. So, he doesn't report to anymore. Not to mention, Gowasu doesn't even think Zamasu is wrong in his view of his mortals. He believes mortals are sinful creatures too, but also believes it's the Kais' job to guide and watch them, and the gods themselves are not perfect.

[Sodhi]

I am really liking Zamasu and Gowasu. They both have their own sense of justice, however Zamasu's sense of justice is much more extreme than Gowasu. I also like how Guowasu always let's Zamasu open up, and tell whatever he has in his mind, while at the same time trying to get him to the path which Gowasu think is right

[z_cherub]

Black has motive. He wants to rid the universe of all humans and create an utopia, just like Zamasu. He also doesn't specifically hate Saiyans nor does he really brag about his greatness outside of his Super Saiyan Rose transformation

That's a weak motive as compared to Zamasu for whom we understand WHY he has that desire. So far, Black just IS that way with no driving factor that we know of.

Also, he DOES hate saiyajin specifically, along with humans (I should've specified "mortals" I suppose).

I'm not saying he's going to be a bad character, I'm just saying we haven't been given enough to declare him good or bad label yet outside of a barely-explained drive to kill people and a familiar face. He's hardly been developed at all...

[HeroR]

Black has motive. He wants to rid the universe of all humans and create an utopia, just like Zamasu. He also doesn't specifically hate Saiyans nor does he really brag about his greatness outside of his Super Saiyan Rose transformation

That's a weak motive as compared to Zamasu for whom we understand WHY he has that desire. So far, Black just IS that way with no driving factor that we know of.

Also, he DOES hate saiyajin specifically, along with humans (I should've specified "mortals" I suppose).

I'm not saying he's going to be a bad character, I'm just saying we haven't been given enough to declare him good or bad label yet outside of a barely-explained drive to kill people and a familiar face. He's hardly been developed at all...

Given all the mystery around Black, I'm sure one of them is why he hate mortals. Remember we been led for weeks to believe Black was Zamasu. Now, we learned that isn't the case. So the big questions Black is what is he, why he's working with Zamasu, what kind of relationship do they have, ect.

[z_cherub]

Black has motive. He wants to rid the universe of all humans and create an utopia, just like Zamasu. He also doesn't specifically hate Saiyans nor does he really brag about his greatness outside of his Super Saiyan Rose transformation

That's a weak motive as compared to Zamasu for whom we understand WHY he has that desire. So far, Black just IS that way with no driving factor that we know of.

Also, he DOES hate saiyajin specifically, along with humans (I should've specified "mortals" I suppose).

I'm not saying he's going to be a bad character, I'm just saying we haven't been given enough to declare him good or bad label yet outside of a barely-explained drive to kill people and a familiar face. He's hardly been developed at all...

Given all the mystery around Black, I'm sure one of them is why he hate mortals. Remember we been led for weeks to believe Black was Zamasu. Now, we learned that isn't the case. So the big questions Black is what is he, why he's working with Zamasu, what kind of relationship do they have, ect.

You did a great job of summarizing what we do and don't know about the character, unfortunately, none of that make a a case for him being either more or less poorly written... We'll just have to wait and see how he turns out when/if they give us more of his back story.

[Nguyenkim]

I think of a theory that Black is a Zamasu's puppet..

[GodVegetto91]

I've always been fond of villains. But when they actually have a legitimate reason for their acts it makes everything that much better. Black has awesome facial expressions. And he's deliciously evil aswell. Furthermore he really seems "motivated" towards his acts. And this brings us back to Zamasu..
WHEN have we EVER had a character that we could actually WITNESS turning evil!?? And who ACTUALLY has a legitimate reason for turning evil! It actually justifies his evil tendencies! Zamasu has given all the reasons for why humans are a failure. And they're good reasons aswell. We've never had this before. Whenever i see Black i can see the "motivation" in his eyes!

[Gig]

The fact that Black motivations have not been explained yet does not necessarily imply they will not be. We already know (ep 56) he searches the same "human-free" utopia dreamed by Zamasu...

However I guess that he just inherited Zamasu's motivations (which have been explained, doing it in a reasonable number of episodes, although some parts if Zamasu story have not been shown yet) because Zamasu "created" him in some way...

Following episodes will tell us something, we just have to wait...

[GodKaio-Ken]

Zamasu has been refreshing. Have other IPs written motivation for evil much better than this? Absolutely - but this is big for DB (taking the time to explain why a bad guy does evil things as opposed to just being evil because they are).

Black - he's cool, but he's a pretty weak character at this point. He may be great, but we'll have to wait for the plot to actually show us some of his personality besides *evil grin*, *I'm great*, *I hate saiyajin*. Right now, he's just a generic bad guy with little motivation who's only distinguishing feature is looking like Goku. Ingested to see where it goes...

Black has motive. He wants to rid the universe of all humans and create an utopia, just like Zamasu. He also doesn't specifically hate Saiyans nor does he really brag about his greatness outside of his Super Saiyan Rose transformation.

Trust me when I say I get all that. I just believe it was written in a rushed way that made his development and character interactions hard to believe. It also makes it hard to believe absolutely no-one recognizes his potential for evil. If I was training a Kaio to become a Kaioshin and he killed someone I'd immediately report it to my superiors or at the very least punish him greatly. Not be like "Hey brah how bout some tea?"

But Zamasu doesn't thinking he's evil. To him, he's doing the gods' work by killing the sinful mortal who are the evil ones. Also, Gowasu is the superior since the Supreme Kais rule over their universe and are equals to the Gods of Destruction. So, he doesn't report to anymore. Not to mention, Gowasu doesn't even think Zamasu is wrong in his view of his mortals. He believes mortals are sinful creatures too, but also believes it's the Kais' job to guide and watch them, and the gods themselves are not perfect.

Don't get me wrong...it's not that I hate Zamasu. I just find his overall writing wouldn't be looked at as strongly if he wasnt in a series where villains rarely have a strong development.

How crazy would it be if the Zamasu we saw was a future Zamasu...and current Zamasu somehow becomes involved and has a change of heart after seeing all the destruction and death he has caused all at once.

[Gig]

I just find his overall writing wouldn't be looked at as strongly if he wasnt in a series where villains rarely have a strong development.

This may be the core of the question. This is Dragon Ball, where usually bad guys are evil "just because they are". They may be hitmans who kill under payment, or may wish to conquer world(s) for their personal greed, or may just enjoy killing and destruction. IIRC, this is the first time that they fully show us how and why evil-doers did decide to became what they are (other than briefly explaining it with some flashback, like when they revealed that Kami divided himself, creating a good guy and a bad guy). Authors already spent even more time that I would have expected, showing Gowasu-Zamasu talking about humans and roles of gods... and some parts of Zamasu's story have not been shown yet.
From Dragon Ball, people expects action. You can notice that authors included some fights, even if very short, in almost every episode (in this arc, maybe 55 is the only exception so far)... because audience wants fights from Dragon Ball (IIRC, first part of Dragon Ball GT somehow tried to change this, and it has been disappointing). There are people which rate an episode very low if characters do not blow up half city and destroy at least a couple of mountains.
Also, would you really like see three-four hours of Zamasu and Gowasu talking about the same things over and over again?