Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZ Macky]

The part with Vegeta losing badly and then Goku fighting Hit in Base form and being able to hit him I'm sure would all be in the outline. I just don't see why Toriyama would put in the outline that Goku had 10x the power of Vegeta when fighting Hit without explaining why, leading to Toyotaro and Toei having to come up for their own reason to explain it.

It's possible but that just seems really weird to me. It'd seem oddly specific in a fight that had so many large differences. They said Vegeta couldn't use 10%, not that he could only use 10% so Goku should be more than 10x as strong but I dunno, maybe.

I tried to make a power level list using SSJ Goku (Post God ki)= SSJG Goku (BoG) because I agreed with you on Freeza's final form still being 226x his first form, BUT... If I use the same multiplier for Frost, Here's how it is:

Frost= 530,000
Frost (Assault Form)= 2,000,000
Frost (Final Form)= 120,000,000

Goku= 1,800,000
Goku (SSJ)= 90,000,000

Basically, There's no way to keep SSJ Goku > Final Frost > Assault Frost > Goku by still following the 226x multiplier.
This is why I feel that the multipliers of Freeza's transformations have been retconned to be less.
Perhaps, If Freeza's 100% is just an exertion and his TRUE form is his 50% form, then it CAN work:

Frost= 530,000
Frost (Assault Form)= 2,000,000
Frost (Final Form)= 60,000,000

Goku= 1,800,000
Goku (SSJ)= 90,000,000

I would like your opinion on this guys. Do you think it's still the same as the 226x multiplier on Namek for both Freeza and Frost?

[Bullza]

I would like your opinion on this guys. Do you think it's still the same as the 226x multiplier on Namek for both Freeza and Frost?

Well you have Assault Frost as being stronger than Base Goku which I think is the problem with that.

Goku, like when he was fighting Frost in his first form still wasn't trying even against Frost in his third form. Frost hits him in the face with a death beam and knocks Goku down but then he has a smile on his face and hops back and starts stretching and mentions how he's a slow starter while Frost has a dumbfounded face over it.

Goku only transforms then to get Frost to transform. So if Base Goku had fought Assault Frost as seriously as he did Frieza or Hit then he would likely have won.

[ssbgoku]

Seems like everyone is nitpicking and overblowing minor errors to call anime inconsistent. I see everything as perfectly consistent. Wait for 2 episode and I'm going to be ready for a huge PL list.

But it can not be... just take ssg as 6 and beerus as 100. Then ssg equal to ss so ss3 would 8x ssg, while ssb is at least 2 times as powerfull as ss3 at the bare miniumum.

Here you get ssb = 6*16=96, this is if ssb alone, now add kaioken x10 thing over it... good luck

SS (vs beerus) =/= SS (vs frost).
Fighting beerus, he was absorbing all of the god powers (ALL) but then he lost the god powers slowly, then he needed whis' training to bring out the god power, as in form of SSB. Remember how king kai said "he reached the power of god without ritual", not that "he became many times more powerful than god power" at RoF fight? Tht means that RoF blue is slightly stronger than SSG.

Really ? man Finally someone who shares my mind . I mean I was sure everyone accepted that by meaning "goku absorbed divine ki of ssg powers/world or even him not dropping in power" means that current ss goku is > ssg goku. I absolutely agree but I am just impressed and suprised someone can think that deep and see something more then one interpretation which would be later contradicted.

Too bad I can not like this post or give you like lol. Now I am very curious about your opinion of ssb kaioken, Do you think it was filler stuff, or maybe Akira just changed his mind over flow of time and manga just managed to reach this point before Akira sent some changes to Toyatorau so he brought ssg instead of kaioken...

Please let me know your thoughts . Thanks

[TheMikado]

Am I the only one who sees a problem with the same exact forms in the anime and manga in terms of function and power wise being COMPLETELY different???

Like how is that even possible to happen?

[apex_pretador]

Am I the only one who sees a problem with the same exact forms in the anime and manga in terms of function and power wise being COMPLETELY different???

Like how is that even possible to happen?

no

I also feel that EVERY SINGLE FORM in manga & anime has different levels of power (for goku & vegeta)

[HeroR]

Seems like everyone is nitpicking and overblowing minor errors to call anime inconsistent. I see everything as perfectly consistent. Wait for 2 episode and I'm going to be ready for a huge PL list.

But it can not be... just take ssg as 6 and beerus as 100. Then ssg equal to ss so ss3 would 8x ssg, while ssb is at least 2 times as powerfull as ss3 at the bare miniumum.

Here you get ssb = 6*16=96, this is if ssb alone, now add kaioken x10 thing over it... good luck

You're using numbers that really doesn't matter since Toriyama only used them to show how outclassed Super Saiyan God Goku was compared to Beerus and Whis. I doubt those numbers were even considered when he wrote Reserrection 'F'.

[HeroR]

SS (vs beerus) =/= SS (vs frost).
Fighting beerus, he was absorbing all of the god powers (ALL) but then he lost the god powers slowly, then he needed whis' training to bring out the god power, as in form of SSB. Remember how king kai said "he reached the power of god without ritual", not that "he became many times more powerful than god power" at RoF fight? Tht means that RoF blue is slightly stronger than SSG.

I have to disagree. It was never hinted or implied that Goku lost his power after his battle with Beerus. He only lost his God form. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was a way for Goku to get a form of Super Saiyan God back without the ritual, which is what King Kai meant.

Basically, becoming a God made his normal Ki stronger so he was as strong as a Super Saiyan God as a normal Super Saiyan without the God ki.

[ZombieVito]

I would like your opinion on this guys. Do you think it's still the same as the 226x multiplier on Namek for both Freeza and Frost?

No. Those forms are really suppressions made by Freeza and Frost. They can be as strong as they want.

[dbs fanboy]

I have a question, this is headcanon, but what if the answer is as simple as they were holding back.
I mean, fighting Trunks Goku held back cause he wanted to test Trunks, and to test Trunks he began to use the ssj transformations while holding back, i know that it sounds stupid, but if Goku's base is roughly equal to Freeza's in RoF and Freeza's base in RoF is stronger than a ssj, i don't think that Trunks is as strong as that unless he gained a lot of zenkai boosts from fighting Dabura, and Black + training.

So, i think that Goku held back to the point he was using the amount of power he used to have in Z, and he did it to test Trunks as he supposed that Trunks was just as strong he was in Z without ssj 3 (remember how he easily blocked Trunks in his base). And Vegeta did the same in ep 54, he transformed to show Trunks the current limits of a saiyan and he didn't one shoted him cause he wanted to kick his ass.

Sorry if this sounds confusing , i think that Super's problem here besides the different writers, is how nothing is clear, like, in the BoG arc and movie, it was stated that Goku got stronger and absorbed the power, but how?, there's no even a consistent scaling, and then in RoF we see that Goku's base is stronger but we don't know how stronger he is, is he stronger than his old ssj 3 self or not?, and at least to me, in ep 49, things got more confusing as i thought that Goku didn't need to transform into a ssj2, ssj 3 anymore, which is why i assumed that he held back and at the same time he transformed.

[ekrolo2]

I have a question, this is headcanon, but what if the answer is as simple as they were holding back.
I mean, fighting Trunks Goku held back cause he wanted to test Trunks, and to test Trunks he began to use the ssj transformations while holding back, i know that it sounds stupid, but if Goku's base is roughly equal to Freeza's in RoF and Freeza's base in RoF is stronger than a ssj, i don't think that Trunks is as strong as that unless he gained a lot of zenkai boosts from fighting Dabura, and Black + training.

So, i think that Goku held back to the point he was using the amount of power he used to have in Z, and he did it to test Trunks as he supposed that Trunks was just as strong he was in Z without ssj 3 (remember how he easily blocked Trunks in his base). And Vegeta did the same in ep 54, he transformed to show Trunks the current limits of a saiyan and he didn't one shoted him cause he wanted to kick his ass.

Sorry if this sounds confusing , i think that Super's problem here besides the different writers, is how nothing is clear, like, in the BoG arc and movie, it was stated that Goku got stronger and absorbed the power, but how?, there's no even a consistent scaling, and then in RoF we see that Goku's base is stronger but we don't know how stronger he is, is he stronger than his old ssj 3 self or not?, and at least to me, in ep 49, things got more confusing as i thought that Goku didn't need to transform into a ssj2, ssj 3 anymore, which is why i assumed that he held back and at the same time he transformed.

People stopped getting Zenkai after the Freeza arc ended, Cell is the only exception and they've never made it a point to say or show anyone getting a big power boost after a beatdown.

And if Goku was holding back, he'd just hold back in base. His base form is considerably powerful so all he'd have to do, in a scenario where Trunks isn't God tier like he is in the show, is match Trunks' SS power in base! There's no reason for him to transform! His power doesn't even go invisible on anyone unless he's using SSBlue.

The only place powers make the most sense is the films with the Super manga a close second. The anime? A mess, it can't be fixed.

[dbs fanboy]

I have a question, this is headcanon, but what if the answer is as simple as they were holding back.
I mean, fighting Trunks Goku held back cause he wanted to test Trunks, and to test Trunks he began to use the ssj transformations while holding back, i know that it sounds stupid, but if Goku's base is roughly equal to Freeza's in RoF and Freeza's base in RoF is stronger than a ssj, i don't think that Trunks is as strong as that unless he gained a lot of zenkai boosts from fighting Dabura, and Black + training.

So, i think that Goku held back to the point he was using the amount of power he used to have in Z, and he did it to test Trunks as he supposed that Trunks was just as strong he was in Z without ssj 3 (remember how he easily blocked Trunks in his base). And Vegeta did the same in ep 54, he transformed to show Trunks the current limits of a saiyan and he didn't one shoted him cause he wanted to kick his ass.

Sorry if this sounds confusing , i think that Super's problem here besides the different writers, is how nothing is clear, like, in the BoG arc and movie, it was stated that Goku got stronger and absorbed the power, but how?, there's no even a consistent scaling, and then in RoF we see that Goku's base is stronger but we don't know how stronger he is, is he stronger than his old ssj 3 self or not?, and at least to me, in ep 49, things got more confusing as i thought that Goku didn't need to transform into a ssj2, ssj 3 anymore, which is why i assumed that he held back and at the same time he transformed.

People stopped getting Zenkai after the Freeza arc ended, Cell is the only exception and they've never made it a point to say or show anyone getting a big power boost after a beatdown.

And if Goku was holding back, he'd just hold back in base. His base form is considerably powerful so all he'd have to do, in a scenario where Trunks isn't God tier like he is in the show, is match Trunks' SS power in base! There's no reason for him to transform! His power doesn't even go invisible on anyone unless he's using SSBlue.

The only place powers make the most sense is the films with the Super manga a close second. The anime? A mess, it can't be fixed.

I don't know, maybe to show Trunks his transformations? "Hey Trunks look at all the cool shit that happened since you left!!!!!", honestly when i watched that episode i thought that Toei brought up those transformations for nostalgia, but after reading the manga i got damn confused

Now then Toyotaro never did Goku vs Freeza (RoF) in the manga didn't he?

[ekrolo2]

I don't know, maybe to show Trunks his transformations? "Hey Trunks look at all the cool shit that happened since you left!!!!!", honestly when i watched that episode i thought that Toei brought up those transformations for nostalgia, but after reading the manga i got damn confused

Now then Toyotaro never did Goku vs Freeza (RoF) in the manga didn't he?

Oh I don't doubt the old forms coming back is just Toei banking on nostalgia. Toriyama would've gone through with retiring all of them if he was the sole writer.

He did a version of the fight to promote the movie but he skipped it for the Super manga. The only thing we know from this hypothetical Super F by Toyotaro is that Freeza came back, he attacked the Earth and Goku & Vegeta worked together to beat him. Unlike the F promo manga, I don't think Toriyama was involved in it so it's a big gray area where the manga is concerned.

[buutenks]

The forms are back to sell toys and stuff. Only real reason.

As for holding back, its just too far fetched for Goku to hold back so much after he transformed to increase his PL. So, according to ep 49, Trunks is perhaps a bit stronger than ssj2 Goku. Meaning he is above ssg who fought Beerus. Ofc, in ep 54, Trunks fails to sense god ki, and it was shown that u need to either be a god yourself, or have a really high PL to be able to sense god ki.

So its, Base Goku>ssj2 Trunks>ssj2 Goku apparently...

I blame it on episode writers.

[TheMikado]

Here are my thoughts:

We know that BoG was originally a Toei creation and rough script that they sent to Toriyama. Toriyama ultimately ended up changing a lot of things but maintaining Toei's original concept of the God of Destruction and making Goku a God. What if what we are seeing is the conflict between Toei and Toriyama that's taking place behind the scenes.

For instance Toriyama may want to keep Goku and the gang grounded by not absorbing God ki and making them ultra powerful, while Toei wants to make them all super God tier like what happened in Fairy Tail with the Dragon/God/Demon Slayers because it polls well.

I feel like the anime could be a way for Toei to keep some of the things they wanted to do with the story originally but with Toriyama's name on it and that's why we have such a conflict between the way they are presented in the anime vs the way they are presented in the manga. Even some ki things tells us that the manga seeks to go a more minimalist route while the anime takes the bigger is better and more flashy approach. I wouldn't be surprised if there was an ideological rift between them as to where they wanted the story to go and be presented.

[ssbgoku]

SS (vs beerus) =/= SS (vs frost).
Fighting beerus, he was absorbing all of the god powers (ALL) but then he lost the god powers slowly, then he needed whis' training to bring out the god power, as in form of SSB. Remember how king kai said "he reached the power of god without ritual", not that "he became many times more powerful than god power" at RoF fight? Tht means that RoF blue is slightly stronger than SSG.

I have to disagree. It was never hinted or implied that Goku lost his power after his battle with Beerus. He only lost his God form. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was a way for Goku to get a form of Super Saiyan God back without the ritual, which is what King Kai meant.

Basically, becoming a God made his normal Ki stronger so he was as strong as a Super Saiyan God as a normal Super Saiyan without the God ki.

However if you go by your way, implied way ;p. Then you get nonsense and controversy as ssb would be at least 96 where beerus would be 100(like 6-100-150 scale).
Beerus in super would be ten times stronger then beerus in movie, still there is no way to make sense for ssb kaiokenx10 if you assume that stance and go by this way.
You would have for beerus to be 100 times stronger in the movie, but that is contradicted by 10% line, until 10% line stays then there is no way to make sense out of it.

beerus - 1000
ssb kaiokenx10 - 960
ssb - 96

Unless you just accept Goku only got gateway to god powers, just think about it as opener to bottle of new juice, so you get access to new power, however you need to move your ass and swallow this juice to get it content in yourself, lol maybe not the best example but it works. That most likely what Akira means by stating it, Crimson fire burning inside ss and base goku were there for reason in bog, not for giggle...

[buutenks]

Hmm, idk what to say.

I dont really mind if Trunks or Piccolo, or Frost or w/e are above ssg Goku who fought Beerus. My problem is, this is never mentioned in the anime. Heck they even make an episode, where Trunks fails to sense god ki, but he, Trunks, is supposedly as strong or stronger than ssj2 Goku, who is stronger than ssj Goku, who absorbed all the power of ssg at that time. Yet he fails to sense god ki, but someone weaker than him, base Goku, can.

So it is impossible to tell where they stand in the anime. Manga is very clear, ssj2 Trunks is stronger than kid Gohan when he fought Cell, but not as strong as ssj3 Goku. So he is more like a ssj2.8

That is what's ultimately bugging me.

And, for the record, i will not believe kx10 to be a thing, till it is repeated again in this arc or future arcs.

[apex_pretador]

SS (vs beerus) =/= SS (vs frost).
Fighting beerus, he was absorbing all of the god powers (ALL) but then he lost the god powers slowly, then he needed whis' training to bring out the god power, as in form of SSB. Remember how king kai said "he reached the power of god without ritual", not that "he became many times more powerful than god power" at RoF fight? Tht means that RoF blue is slightly stronger than SSG.

I have to disagree. It was never hinted or implied that Goku lost his power after his battle with Beerus. He only lost his God form. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was a way for Goku to get a form of Super Saiyan God back without the ritual, which is what King Kai meant.

Basically, becoming a God made his normal Ki stronger so he was as strong as a Super Saiyan God as a normal Super Saiyan without the God ki.

He was basically hanging on with the SSG power and converted it to his power. Since I don't subscribe to multiplier theory, for me, it was a "desperation" boost, not a full-on permanent powerup. You notice how everytime SSB was mentioned, the main source behind it was stated to be "whis' training" ? How vegeta and goku were dead even before goku started whis' training and then grew multiple times stronger? So, if you subscribe to multiplier theory and believe that SS should not be below the beerus fight, then you should put him multiple times stronger than SSG in SS and SS2 and SS3. Plus, since it was heavily implied that SS2 trunks is not in "finger-flick" range for SS2 goku, it is clear that SS2 goku is not in SSG goku's realm.
So, technically, SS goku vs beerus was not SS goku, but SSG goku in SS form. However, he dissipated a large portion of SSG energy when he punched away the big ball of ki.

In the anime, vegeta wasn't astonished by trunks, so if trunks is anywhere near SSG level, vegeta should drop his jaw all over the ground. Also, see how vegeta gives a huge laugh over SS3 goku's power level, comparing it to SSB? It shows SSB is leagues and leagues beyond SS3 goku, and SSB is never implied to be that much more powerful than SSG, at best a few times more powerful.

[Bullza]

I mean, fighting Trunks Goku held back cause he wanted to test Trunks, and to test Trunks he began to use the ssj transformations while holding back

In the anime Goku didn't fight Trunks to test him, he fought him to see how Black measured up to him. So for him to severely hold back when Trunks was trying to measure them up isn't really gonna tell Goku anything.

And we know that Trunks was holding back against SSJ2 Goku so you'd have to say that Goku was holding back a lot more than what Trunks was holding back.

And when SSJ2 Goku was fighting Black, Trunks wondered why Goku didn't use the power he'd used against him. So Goku was weaker when fighting Black than he was fighting Trunks so you'd also have to say he was holding back against Black aswell and he had no reason to do so there either.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Here are my thoughts:

We know that BoG was originally a Toei creation and rough script that they sent to Toriyama. Toriyama ultimately ended up changing a lot of things but maintaining Toei's original concept of the God of Destruction and making Goku a God. What if what we are seeing is the conflict between Toei and Toriyama that's taking place behind the scenes.

For instance Toriyama may want to keep Goku and the gang grounded by not absorbing God ki and making them ultra powerful, while Toei wants to make them all super God tier like what happened in Fairy Tail with the Dragon/God/Demon Slayers because it polls well.

I feel like the anime could be a way for Toei to keep some of the things they wanted to do with the story originally but with Toriyama's name on it and that's why we have such a conflict between the way they are presented in the anime vs the way they are presented in the manga. Even some ki things tells us that the manga seeks to go a more minimalist route while the anime takes the bigger is better and more flashy approach. I wouldn't be surprised if there was an ideological rift between them as to where they wanted the story to go and be presented.

Goku absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God in his base form was Toriyama's idea, because he wanted Super Saiyan Goku in the final battle.

[ekrolo2]

Was SS Goku stated to be stronger than Hit in the manga or?