Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

SS (vs beerus) =/= SS (vs frost).
Fighting beerus, he was absorbing all of the god powers (ALL) but then he lost the god powers slowly, then he needed whis' training to bring out the god power, as in form of SSB. Remember how king kai said "he reached the power of god without ritual", not that "he became many times more powerful than god power" at RoF fight? Tht means that RoF blue is slightly stronger than SSG.

I have to disagree. It was never hinted or implied that Goku lost his power after his battle with Beerus. He only lost his God form. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was a way for Goku to get a form of Super Saiyan God back without the ritual, which is what King Kai meant.

Basically, becoming a God made his normal Ki stronger so he was as strong as a Super Saiyan God as a normal Super Saiyan without the God ki.

He was basically hanging on with the SSG power and converted it to his power. Since I don't subscribe to multiplier theory, for me, it was a "desperation" boost, not a full-on permanent powerup. You notice how everytime SSB was mentioned, the main source behind it was stated to be "whis' training" ? How vegeta and goku were dead even before goku started whis' training and then grew multiple times stronger? So, if you subscribe to multiplier theory and believe that SS should not be below the beerus fight, then you should put him multiple times stronger than SSG in SS and SS2 and SS3. Plus, since it was heavily implied that SS2 trunks is not in "finger-flick" range for SS2 goku, it is clear that SS2 goku is not in SSG goku's realm.
So, technically, SS goku vs beerus was not SS goku, but SSG goku in SS form. However, he dissipated a large portion of SSG energy when he punched away the big ball of ki.

In the anime, vegeta wasn't astonished by trunks, so if trunks is anywhere near SSG level, vegeta should drop his jaw all over the ground. Also, see how vegeta gives a huge laugh over SS3 goku's power level, comparing it to SSB? It shows SSB is leagues and leagues beyond SS3 goku, and SSB is never implied to be that much more powerful than SSG, at best a few times more powerful.

We don't know how much stronger Goku got from Whis' training. Only that it took Vegeta six months to reach Goku. Also Super Saiyan is a multipler according to Zamasu. And again, it was never said Goku lost power, it's the opposite since the reason Vegeta wanted to train with Whis was so he can reach Goku who was said to have kept the power of godhood. Even Krillin notes how much stronger Goku was.

Vegeta laughed be Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 and doesn't drain energy like the form. And Goku could of finger flick Trunks, but didn't because that wasn't the point of sparring. Just as Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta could have one-shotted Trunks, but didn't.

All we know of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is that it is a bigger multipler. Since all of Goku's golden Super Saiyan forms are 8x, then Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is higher than that and stronger than Super Saiyan God whose multipler is unknown.

[HeroR]

I mean, fighting Trunks Goku held back cause he wanted to test Trunks, and to test Trunks he began to use the ssj transformations while holding back

In the anime Goku didn't fight Trunks to test him, he fought him to see how Black measured up to him. So for him to severely hold back when Trunks was trying to measure them up isn't really gonna tell Goku anything.

And we know that Trunks was holding back against SSJ2 Goku so you'd have to say that Goku was holding back a lot more than what Trunks was holding back.

And when SSJ2 Goku was fighting Black, Trunks wondered why Goku didn't use the power he'd used against him. So Goku was weaker when fighting Black than he was fighting Trunks so you'd also have to say he was holding back against Black aswell and he had no reason to do so there either.

Trunks was clearly talking about Super Saiyan 3 Goku. We even see a flashback of Super Saiyan 3 Goku holding back Trunks' sword. He wasn't talking about Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

And one can used their full power and still hold back. Look at 50% Freeza vs. Goku. Freeza should have killed Goku in one hit. The same with Super Saiyan Goku vs. 50% Freeza.

[Bullza]

Was SS Goku stated to be stronger than Hit in the manga or?

Yeah I think he was. Beerus said he had the edge in power but him having to predict Hit's attacks was draining his stamina quickly.

So someone the equivalent of Super Saiyan Goku's strenght was able to beat the tar out of SSJB Vegeta. If it turning Blue twice was going to make Vegeta that weak he'd have been off using SSJ2.

Trunks was clearly talking about Super Saiyan 3 Goku. We even see a flashback of Super Saiyan 3 Goku holding back Trunks' sword. He wasn't talking about Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

I know. It's just that some have the impression that SSJ3 Goku was severely holding back against Trunks. He obviously wouldn't have been holding back against Black but Trunks still wondered why he didn't use the power he used against him meaning SSJ3 Goku against Trunks > SSJ2 Goku against Black.

So he wasn't really holding back against Trunks unless he also happened to be holding back against Black aswell.

[Hugo Boss]

I'm almost sure Whis implied there was still a difference between Super Saiyan Goku and Supressed Hit and that Goku not only overcome that difference with Super Saiyan God but he also turned the tables.

[TheMikado]

I'm almost sure Whis implied there was still a difference between Super Saiyan Goku and Supressed Hit and that Goku not only overcome that difference with Super Saiyan God but he also turned the tables.

Exactly, there's no way we're to the point of believing there's a scenario where SSJ2 surpasses SSB???

[Bullza]

Whis explained that Hit's time skip ability only worked against someone equal to or weaker than himself and that SSJG Goku had surpassed Hit and that's why it didn't work.

But SSJ Goku was shown to be equal to Hit so the time skip would have still worked. Champa started to get worried and it was emphasized a few times that the difference between their stamina was wihy Goku was losing.

Maybe Beerus meant Goku had him beat in raw physical power.

[dbs fanboy]

I don't know, maybe to show Trunks his transformations? "Hey Trunks look at all the cool shit that happened since you left!!!!!", honestly when i watched that episode i thought that Toei brought up those transformations for nostalgia, but after reading the manga i got damn confused

Now then Toyotaro never did Goku vs Freeza (RoF) in the manga didn't he?

Oh I don't doubt the old forms coming back is just Toei banking on nostalgia. Toriyama would've gone through with retiring all of them if he was the sole writer.

He did a version of the fight to promote the movie but he skipped it for the Super manga. The only thing we know from this hypothetical Super F by Toyotaro is that Freeza came back, he attacked the Earth and Goku & Vegeta worked together to beat him. Unlike the F promo manga, I don't think Toriyama was involved in it so it's a big gray area where the manga is concerned.

Now i wonder how would have Toyotaro/Toriyama do it, it would have probably made more sense with the power levels, just like Toyotaro's version of BoG

[buutenks]

Now i wonder how would have Toyotaro/Toriyama do it, it would have probably made more sense with the power levels, just like Toyotaro's version of BoG

Toriyama was pretty consistent with who was stronger than who. Only debates are about which version of Buu, and this is mostly due to anime version messing with what is said in the manga and SPC and ssj2 kid Gohan, which IMO is not something one can complain about, since the gap between them is small either way u look at it.

Toei had a bad habit of screwing up PLs, back since the namek saga.

Seems, they dont care much for consistency.

[Hugo Boss]

Whis explained that Hit's time skip ability only worked against someone equal to or weaker than himself and that SSJG Goku had surpassed Hit and that's why it didn't work.

But SSJ Goku was shown to be equal to Hit so the time skip would have still worked. Champa started to get worried and it was emphasized a few times that the difference between their stamina was wihy Goku was losing.

Maybe Beerus meant Goku had him beat in raw physical power.

After hearing what Whis said, it seems Hit was under the impression Super Saiyan God was weaker than SSB Vegeta. He probably thought Goku would get about as strong as Vegeta once he transformed into Blue and expected he could still stop him just like he did with Vegeta. If SS Goku was equal to Hit that time, why he was surprised his technique wasn't working at its max effiency?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't know, maybe to show Trunks his transformations? "Hey Trunks look at all the cool shit that happened since you left!!!!!", honestly when i watched that episode i thought that Toei brought up those transformations for nostalgia, but after reading the manga i got damn confused

Now then Toyotaro never did Goku vs Freeza (RoF) in the manga didn't he?

Oh I don't doubt the old forms coming back is just Toei banking on nostalgia. Toriyama would've gone through with retiring all of them if he was the sole writer.

He did a version of the fight to promote the movie but he skipped it for the Super manga. The only thing we know from this hypothetical Super F by Toyotaro is that Freeza came back, he attacked the Earth and Goku & Vegeta worked together to beat him. Unlike the F promo manga, I don't think Toriyama was involved in it so it's a big gray area where the manga is concerned.

We also know that Freeza destroyed the Earth & Who's rewinded time back.

By the way, Toriyama was involved with the FnF manga like he is with the Super manga.

[ekrolo2]

I don't know, maybe to show Trunks his transformations? "Hey Trunks look at all the cool shit that happened since you left!!!!!", honestly when i watched that episode i thought that Toei brought up those transformations for nostalgia, but after reading the manga i got damn confused

Now then Toyotaro never did Goku vs Freeza (RoF) in the manga didn't he?

Oh I don't doubt the old forms coming back is just Toei banking on nostalgia. Toriyama would've gone through with retiring all of them if he was the sole writer.

He did a version of the fight to promote the movie but he skipped it for the Super manga. The only thing we know from this hypothetical Super F by Toyotaro is that Freeza came back, he attacked the Earth and Goku & Vegeta worked together to beat him. Unlike the F promo manga, I don't think Toriyama was involved in it so it's a big gray area where the manga is concerned.

We also know that Freeza destroyed the Earth & Who's rewinded time back.

By the way, Toriyama was involved with the FnF manga like he is with the Super manga.

Shit, that complicates things even more

[TheMikado]

Not really, the FnF manga wasn't even complete it was a partial story and didn't even show Golden Frieza if I recall properly. This is outside the fact that it was written long before Toriyama knew he would be adapting his movies into an ongoing serialized format. Basically if Toriyama was starting out writing this as a totally new manga we have no idea what it would look like compared to the Toei amalgamation that is Super.

[DBZ Macky]

With how the Super anime is now, We might as well take everything at face value and not think about logic.

[ekrolo2]

So, I've come up with a possible theory to make sense of Trunks' ability to increase SS2 to SS3 levels. In their ROSAT training, Goku and Gohan abandoned stronger, grade forms that gave bigger power increases and instead chose to maximize their SS1 abilities: what if Trunks did the same thing with SS2? Instead of trying to force himself into getting stronger but costlier forms, he trained to make SS2 as strong and as versatile as SS1 full power is?

This theory becomes even more plausible if you believe that Goku & Gohan were able to increase SS1s multiplier upon mastering it. Furthermore, Toriyama also intended on Goku & Vegeta simply discarding SS2 and SS3 and choosing to improve SS1 so it gave them bigger strength increases, implying that weaker forms can get stronger than the powered up variants through training.

[Alruneia]

So, I've come up with a possible theory to make sense of Trunks' ability to increase SS2 to SS3 levels. In their ROSAT training, Goku and Gohan abandoned stronger, grade forms that gave bigger power increases and instead chose to maximize their SS1 abilities: what if Trunks did the same thing with SS2? Instead of trying to force himself into getting stronger but costlier forms, he trained to make SS2 as strong and as versatile as SS1 full power is?

This theory becomes even more plausible if you believe that Goku & Gohan were able to increase SS1s multiplier upon mastering it. Furthermore, Toriyama also intended on Goku & Vegeta simply discarding SS2 and SS3 and choosing to improve SS1 so it gave them bigger strength increases, implying that weaker forms can get stronger than the powered up variants through training.

Yeah. FPSSJ2. We've been theorising about a Full Power Super Saiyan 2 since the manga chapter leaked. There is a chance that SSJ3 is actually a misnamed ASSJ2 (Super Saiyan 2 Grade 2), which would explain why FPSSJ2 can outperform it. To quote my own post (in the manga thread) from August 20th:

Can someone tell me why a Full Powered Super Saiyan 2 should be above or equal to SSJ 3 but a normal FPSSJ at the Cell saga was CLEARLY behind SSJ2

Maybe SS3 is a fake SS transformation like USS.

It's a long shot, but maybe SSJ3 is actually not the correct way to ascend? Goku just made the form up, after all, and Gotenks just copied him. Future Trunks, who's been in his own timeline and only seen SSJ2 until now, had to find his own way to ascend, and he ended up with FPSSJ2 instead, and his FPSSJ2 is as strong as or maybe even stronger than Goku's SSJ3. I don't know, but it's a possibility.

I'm really beginning to wonder if this might actually be the case. Goku kept pushing forward and got SSJ3 (which is actually ASSJ2 or USSJ2), while Trunks took the mastery approach instead and got FPSSJ2. It'd be a role reversal of what happened in the Cell arc.

[Hugo Boss]

So, I've come up with a possible theory to make sense of Trunks' ability to increase SS2 to SS3 levels. In their ROSAT training, Goku and Gohan abandoned stronger, grade forms that gave bigger power increases and instead chose to maximize their SS1 abilities: what if Trunks did the same thing with SS2? Instead of trying to force himself into getting stronger but costlier forms, he trained to make SS2 as strong and as versatile as SS1 full power is?

This theory becomes even more plausible if you believe that Goku & Gohan were able to increase SS1s multiplier upon mastering it. Furthermore, Toriyama also intended on Goku & Vegeta simply discarding SS2 and SS3 and choosing to improve SS1 so it gave them bigger strength increases, implying that weaker forms can get stronger than the powered up variants through training.

This theory sounds very plausible, though I don't understand why Goku didn't undergo this way instead of transforming again.

[ekrolo2]

So, I've come up with a possible theory to make sense of Trunks' ability to increase SS2 to SS3 levels. In their ROSAT training, Goku and Gohan abandoned stronger, grade forms that gave bigger power increases and instead chose to maximize their SS1 abilities: what if Trunks did the same thing with SS2? Instead of trying to force himself into getting stronger but costlier forms, he trained to make SS2 as strong and as versatile as SS1 full power is?

This theory becomes even more plausible if you believe that Goku & Gohan were able to increase SS1s multiplier upon mastering it. Furthermore, Toriyama also intended on Goku & Vegeta simply discarding SS2 and SS3 and choosing to improve SS1 so it gave them bigger strength increases, implying that weaker forms can get stronger than the powered up variants through training.

This theory sounds very plausible, though I don't understand why Goku didn't undergo this way instead of transforming again.

He can't. He went against the principle of mastering Super Saiyan, an inferior form that becomes stronger through training by focusing more on more powered up forms instead. That's not to say Goku couldn't attain a mastery of SS2 like Trunks did, he just discarded the form in favor of stronger ones like 3 and the God forms leaving him at a level where he can use it at will but he never maximised the forms true potential.

[TheMikado]

Well a plausible reason for going SSJ3 for Goku rather than FSSJ2 would be we don't know how long it took Goku or Vegeta to go SSJ2 ( assuming but plausible that Vegeta could go SSJ2 before Majin) it's very possible that Goku ended up take a shortcut with SSJ3 rather that going FSSJ and Trunks being a hybrid had both more time and accelerated ability to get to FSSJ2.

[DBZ Macky]

So, I've come up with a possible theory to make sense of Trunks' ability to increase SS2 to SS3 levels. In their ROSAT training, Goku and Gohan abandoned stronger, grade forms that gave bigger power increases and instead chose to maximize their SS1 abilities: what if Trunks did the same thing with SS2? Instead of trying to force himself into getting stronger but costlier forms, he trained to make SS2 as strong and as versatile as SS1 full power is?

This theory becomes even more plausible if you believe that Goku & Gohan were able to increase SS1s multiplier upon mastering it. Furthermore, Toriyama also intended on Goku & Vegeta simply discarding SS2 and SS3 and choosing to improve SS1 so it gave them bigger strength increases, implying that weaker forms can get stronger than the powered up variants through training.

Yeah. FPSSJ2. We've been theorising about a Full Power Super Saiyan 2 since the manga chapter leaked. There is a chance that SSJ3 is actually a misnamed ASSJ2 (Super Saiyan 2 Grade 2), which would explain why FPSSJ2 can outperform it. To quote my own post (in the manga thread) from August 20th:

Maybe SS3 is a fake SS transformation like USS.

It's a long shot, but maybe SSJ3 is actually not the correct way to ascend? Goku just made the form up, after all, and Gotenks just copied him. Future Trunks, who's been in his own timeline and only seen SSJ2 until now, had to find his own way to ascend, and he ended up with FPSSJ2 instead, and his FPSSJ2 is as strong as or maybe even stronger than Goku's SSJ3. I don't know, but it's a possibility.

I'm really beginning to wonder if this might actually be the case. Goku kept pushing forward and got SSJ3 (which is actually ASSJ2 or USSJ2), while Trunks took the mastery approach instead and got FPSSJ2. It'd be a role reversal of what happened in the Cell arc.

I was thinking the same thing!
SSJ=50x
SSJ Grade II=75x
SSJ Grade III=90x
SSJ Grade IV (FPSSJ)=50x
SSJ Grade V (SSJ2)= 100x
SSJ Grade VI (Trunks's SSJ2)= 300x
SSJ Grade VII (SSJ3)= 400x
SSJ Grade VIII (Rageta)= 500x - 1,000x

What do you think?

I have one more question: Did Trunks use "Ultra Super Saiyan 2" or SSJ2 Grade III against Vegeta before transforming into his SSJ2? It makes no sense that he'd try to fake out Vegeta using a weaker transformation.

[ekrolo2]

I was thinking the same thing!
SSJ=50x
SSJ Grade II=75x
SSJ Grade III=90x
SSJ Grade IV (FPSSJ)=50x
SSJ Grade V (SSJ2)= 100x
SSJ Grade VI (Trunks's SSJ2)= 300x
SSJ Grade VII (SSJ3)= 400x
SSJ Grade VIII (Rageta)= 500x - 1,000x

What do you think?

I have one more question: Did Trunks use "Ultra Super Saiyan 2" or SSJ2 Grade III against Vegeta before transforming into his SSJ2? It makes no sense that he'd try to fake out Vegeta using a weaker transformation.

I doubt Grade III has a set multiplier. Trunks kept powering it up over and over again implying it can potentially go as high as the users body can take it. Then again this is the Super anime so who the fuck knows whats the deal with Trunks there.