Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

Hypothetically, Black could use the Kaioken right?

[Alee9977]

Hypothetically, Black could use the Kaioken right?

Well, he needs to have a relaxed heart which seems not to be the case, he is really impulsive and with the idea of killing all the humans he doesn't seem to have a relaxed heart.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Interesting, Why do you have SSR Black and Zamasu over even SSBKx10 Goku?

That's just how I feel for now, I think Black is at a level above anything Goku can achieve, but still below Beerus, and Zamasu didn't appear to be at a very different level from Black. I may change my mind in the future, or it may be proven otherwise, but for now that's how I see it.

[Chiki]

Stupid and illogical things happen in shonen all the time when the plot demands for it.

Funny, when I said Trunks was God level because the plot called for him to be you went all logical on me. Now he proves to be God level in a fight scene and you say it's because the plot called for it .

Just because Trunks isn't as strong as Zamasu or Black doesn't mean he's not stronger than SSJG when Zamasu and Black are vastly stronger than SSJG.

Trunks being SSG level or above is infinitely more moronic than Trunks doing well in this episode, so there's no comparison. Trunks catching Black off-guard, overpowering Zamasu (who was defeated by SS2 Goku anyway) and taking a Kamehameha which Goku was in the front of are all stupid, but Trunks becoming SSG by himself with no special training is infinitely more stupid than that. We already have an example of something stupid happening: Mai surviving a ki blast from Black.

There is no proof, however, that the writers want Trunks to be SSG level. Please don't insult the intelligence of the writers. No writer can be that stupid.

You have an army of people coming on here after this ep aired who still think that it's stupid for Trunks to be SSG level. Why? Because you're still wrong; people who watch shonen regularly are used to this stupid kind of shit happening. If Mai can survive a ki blast from Black I'm pretty sure that Trunks can successfully catch Black off guard and overpower Zamasu while angry.

===

How strong is Zamasu anyway? Either way this ep has some stupid shit. Zamasu either does too well or badly because of his performance against Trunks.

[Lionel]

It's not just a matter of Trunks taking the two off-guard, he was actively perceiving and intercepting SSJR Black's attacks while managing to hold at bay his Ki blade and even overcome him in a brief melee exchange. Shortly afterwards we witness Trunks not only taking Zamasu head-on, he's even managing to gain the advantage at certain points in hand-to-hand; bear in mind that Zamasu shortly before had overwhelmed SSJB Goku in melee combat. For this to be possible would imply that, contrary to Goku's assertion of Trunks being incapable of handling opponents of such calibre, he is actually strong enough to not only hold his own but even gain the advantage over these opponents.

Do you see where the illogicality lies? Trunks before this episode was established as being so weak that he couldn't handle Black in his normal state. Now we're seeing him resist attacks and even overwhelm Black in his transformed state with some ostensible power up gained from being pummeled by Vegeta one time and performing some meditation training on the surface of a pond. People are quick to denounce any of the U6 characters (Hit being excluded) and Piccolo as being God tier yet Trunks' miraculous ascension from Cell Jr tier to matching the same character who turned SSJ3 Gotenks into a laughing stock using only Base strength to finally rivaling two characters who are powerful enough to have the upperhand against SSJB Goku is a-okay.

[ZombieVito]

Updated list for the anime:

Zenno
Grand Priest
Zenno's Guard #1 | Zenno's Guard #2
Vados | Whis
Hakaishin Beerus | Hakaishin Champa
Super Saiyan Rose Son Goku Black | Future Zamasu
Kaio-ken x10 Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku | Tokitobashi Hit
Kaio-ken Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Golden Freeza
Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta | Super Saiyan Blue Copy-Vegeta
Hit
Son Goku Black
Super Saiyan 3 Son Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Super Saiyan 2 Son Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Zamasu
Magetta
Super Saiyan Son Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan God Son Goku
Super Saiyan Cabba
Final Form Frost
Piccolo | Son Gohan
Future Trunks
Assault Form Frost
Son Goku | Vegeta | Copy-Vegeta
Final Form Freeza
Cabba
Frost
Botamo
Freeza
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Majin Boo

A few questions:

1.- Why do you think Golden Freeza is still stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta?
2.- Don't you think SSJ Trunks > SSJ2 Goku is a bit too much?
3.- Piccolo and I'm assuming Ultimate Gohan >> Base Goku and Vegeta?
4.- Do you think Gotenks got weaker? Because that's the only way I can see all those people fitting in between him and Gohan.

On the matter of Trunks vs Zamasu. After watching the episode subbed I think the latter was just playing around. Zamasu calls Trunks weak straight to his face.

[Bullza]

Trunks being SSG level or above is infinitely more moronic than Trunks doing well in this episode

Not really, if Cabba can be SSJG level then there's nothing wrong with Trunks being that strong. Pretty much all the new characters are at least that strong now.

Trunks catching Black off-guard, overpowering Zamasu (who was defeated by SS2 Goku anyway)

He caught him off guard when he stopped an attack that was meant to hurt SSJB Goku. He was only taken by surprise for a moment, it didnt stop him from being kicked into a building afterward.

It was present Zamasu who was weaker than SSJ2 Goku. Future Zamasu is a different story.

Mai surviving a ki blast from Black.

She just got caught up in the explosion. Wasn't that obvious?

You have an army of people coming on here after this ep aired who still think that it's stupid for Trunks to be SSG level. Why?

An army he says

For some bizarre reason people hate the idea of a character reaching a level that they believe he shouldn't be at because of "logic". Super Saiyan God was that powerful and that unreachable that the very idea that other characters could reach that level is impossible for them.

Even though right after Vegeta trained for 6 months and he was that strong. "Oh but he had special training". No not really, he changed bed sheets, he cut the lawn, he lifted some heavy blocks. That's it.

If Mai can survive a ki blast from Black I'm pretty sure that Trunks can successfully catch Black off guard and overpower Zamasu while angry.

So Mai being able to survive a Ki blast from someone who can destroy a Solar System is ok but Trunks in 10 years obtaining the power Vegeta obtained in 6 months....

"Hold the fuck up! That's bad writing that is! That's not logical!"

Apparently a Buu saga level SSJ2 Trunks holding his own against SSJB level opponents is much more logical than Trunks being God level.

[buutenks]

haha, u guys are so hurt. I love it, it is amusing. Jeez just accept anime Trunks is stronger than a ssg and close to ssj blue. Holding back, jeez...why in the world would Black Rose suppress his ki by hundreds of times just so he wont accidentally kill Trunks, if u all think Trunks is buu saga level? Or Zamasu. Also Zamasu is ssj blue level. He attacks Goku and Goku blocks, then says this is different from before. Noting how ssj blue Goku was unable to overpower Zamasu.

Why is it so hard to accept that Trunks is ssg level now? I didnt accept it before, because there was no real reason, ssj Blue owned him badly and ssj3 Goku one shotted him, so it was pretty iffy. But, now? He is holding his own against ssj blue level opponents. So the only simple logical conclusion is that Trunks jumped to ssj blue level.

Tho i doubt any will change their opinion, seems those who think Trunks is buu saga level, have already made their mind and nothing will change it.

[SaiyanGod117]

The thing is how did Trunks make a jump in power in such a short amount of time? I think people are underestimating the power of SSB with 3 years of training in the HTC and Black is even stronger then that. Does anyone know how long he trained with Vegeta?

[buutenks]

The thing is how did Trunks make a jump in power in such a short amount of time? I think people are underestimating the power of SSB with 3 years of training in the HTC and Black is even stronger then that. Does anyone know how long he trained with Vegeta?

Vegeta clearly said, they wouldnt get much of a power up tho, plus Black Rose isnt leagues above ssj blue, more like Golden Freeza vs ssj Blue difference.

Logically? Writers wanted to give a good 2vs2 fight, and i am so glad they threw the PL out the window since we had a nice superb fight. So they powered up Trunks with that rage boost of his to ssj blue level. Plus i suspect, in the anime Trunks wasnt far off ssj blue level to begin with. Considering he was ssj2 Goku level, and ssj1 Goku is ssg level in the anime.

Basically there is a clear difference between anime and manga. Manga Trunks is Buu saga level and anime is ssg level. I suspect in the manga, instead of Trunks it will be Vegeta and Goku vs Black Rose and Zamasu. That or Zamasu is much weaker in the manga, so he fights Trunks and Goku takes on Black.

Either way i dont get much enjoyment from the manga atm, so i stick to the anime.

[ZombieVito]

haha, u guys are so hurt. I love it, it is amusing. Jeez just accept anime Trunks is stronger than a ssg and close to ssj blue. Holding back, jeez...why in the world would Black Rose suppress his ki by hundreds of times just so he wont accidentally kill Trunks, if u all think Trunks is buu saga level? Or Zamasu. Also Zamasu is ssj blue level. He attacks Goku and Goku blocks, then says this is different from before. Noting how ssj blue Goku was unable to overpower Zamasu.

Why is it so hard to accept that Trunks is ssg level now? I didnt accept it before, because there was no real reason, ssj Blue owned him badly and ssj3 Goku one shotted him, so it was pretty iffy. But, now? He is holding his own against ssj blue level opponents. So the only simple logical conclusion is that Trunks jumped to ssj blue level.

Tho i doubt any will change their opinion, seems those who think Trunks is buu saga level, have already made their mind and nothing will change it.

Zamasu flat out says to Trunks that he his weak and lacks power.

[ShaneisMC]

I'm just gonna go with Trunks powered up considerably after training with Vegeta before they left and while he doesnt have god ki so he cant become a SSJG or SSJB he still has an extremely high level of power as a SSJ2 and that he has gotten really strong without it being necessary for him to transform kinda similar to Buu arc Gohan. Plus its not like hes on their level necessarily anyway. He still got his ass kicked. He was just able to actually fight well enough to not get instant one shotted. I'd imagine people will naturally bring up that Vegeta was one shot so how could Trunks keep up? My answer would just be that Vegeta was caught off guard as Black cheaply stabbed him. We know this kind of thing can happen as it has numerous times in the past. Also you could potentially throw in the idea that Zamasu/Black were holding back their full strength. I could see that. I mean Black has already shown himself to intentionally play around with his opponent. Is it hard trying to scale this stuff? Yeah. Is it clearly "the plot requires this" sort of material? Obviously. But i don't think its at a point where its completely and utterly unable to be defended or explained. The writing isn't so poor that absolutely nothing correlates and rules are thrown completely out the window. Just gotta take things with a bigger suspension of disbelief than normal.

[buutenks]

haha, u guys are so hurt. I love it, it is amusing. Jeez just accept anime Trunks is stronger than a ssg and close to ssj blue. Holding back, jeez...why in the world would Black Rose suppress his ki by hundreds of times just so he wont accidentally kill Trunks, if u all think Trunks is buu saga level? Or Zamasu. Also Zamasu is ssj blue level. He attacks Goku and Goku blocks, then says this is different from before. Noting how ssj blue Goku was unable to overpower Zamasu.

Why is it so hard to accept that Trunks is ssg level now? I didnt accept it before, because there was no real reason, ssj Blue owned him badly and ssj3 Goku one shotted him, so it was pretty iffy. But, now? He is holding his own against ssj blue level opponents. So the only simple logical conclusion is that Trunks jumped to ssj blue level.

Tho i doubt any will change their opinion, seems those who think Trunks is buu saga level, have already made their mind and nothing will change it.

Zamasu flat out says to Trunks that he his weak and lacks power.

No, he did not say that. He said that saiyans are powerless against him. Aka i am immortal so you cant do squat.

[Bullza]

Trunks used the Final Flash against Zamasu. Was that something he perhaps learned from this unseen one day of training after his fight with Vegeta?

They should have had some throwaway comment about him going into the ROSAT for the day.

[ekrolo2]

Trunks used the Final Flash against Zamasu. Was that something he perhaps learned from this unseen one day of training after his fight with Vegeta?

They should have had some throwaway comment t about him going into the ROSAT for the day.

You mean that thing that stops giving any significant strenght gains after the first time you use it?

[Bullza]

A years worth of raining with SSJB Vegeta in the ROSAT would have explained his strenght greatly increasing. Wouldn't have hurt anyway.

[Chiki]

Son Goku Black
Super Saiyan 3 Son Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Super Saiyan 2 Son Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Zamasu
Magetta
Super Saiyan Son Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan God Son Goku
Super Saiyan Cabba
Final Form Frost
Piccolo | Son Gohan
Future Trunks
Assault Form Frost
Son Goku | Vegeta | Copy-Vegeta

I thought you were one of the more reasonable guys here. Even Goku says Trunks is too weak to handle Black or Zamasu, so his performance was complete bullshit whether or not Trunks is SSG level. You were the one who kept explaining that Trunks can't be god level because he can't feel god ki...

Since Trunks's performance was a result of typical shonen logic, we might as well assume that other cases of shonen logic are true too:

1. Mai surviving a ki blast from Black.
2. Bulma beating the shit out of Post-SSG Base Goku at the end of BoG.
3. Yamcha paralyzing Beerus effortlessly with a slap to the back early in Super https://youtu.be/0hKwd0apnpk
4. Yajirobe speed blitzing Black and Zamasu by grabbing Goku and Trunks from them insanely quickly
5. Mai's smoke grenade paralyzing Black and Zamasu
6. Bulma performed better against Beerus than Ultimate Gohan did
7. Sorbet's god level laser ring

Let me update your tier list:

Zenno
Grand Priest
Zenno's Guard #1 | Zenno's Guard #2
Mai's smoke grenade
Vados | Whis
Yamcha
Hakaishin Beerus | Hakaishin Champa
Yajirobe
Super Saiyan Rose Son Goku Black | Future Zamasu
Kaio-ken x10 Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku | Tokitobashi Hit
Kaio-ken Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Golden Freeza
Sorbet
Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta | Super Saiyan Blue Copy-Vegeta
Hit
Son Goku Black
Super Saiyan 3 Son Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Super Saiyan 2 Son Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Zamasu
Magetta
Super Saiyan Son Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan God Son Goku
Super Saiyan Cabba
Bulma
Final Form Frost
Mai
Piccolo | Son Gohan
Future Trunks
Assault Form Frost
Son Goku | Vegeta | Copy-Vegeta
Final Form Freeza
Cabba
Frost
Botamo
Freeza
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Majin Boo

[buutenks]

Trunks used the Final Flash against Zamasu. Was that something he perhaps learned from this unseen one day of training after his fight with Vegeta?

They should have had some throwaway comment about him going into the ROSAT for the day.

i suspect it cant be to difficult to learn. Plus, he already seen it vs Cell. So he could have easily copied it.

Some keep saying Goku says Trunks is to weak to fight them, when was this stated?

[Bullza]

Some keep saying Goku says Trunks is to weak to fight them, when was this stated?

That wasn't stated. Goku said to Trunks that they were opponents he couldn't handle. Which would mean he's just weaker than them though a couple people are taking it to completely throw out the fight entirely.

So Trunks is not SSJB level but he is Post God SSJ2/3 level.

[Chiki]

Trunks used the Final Flash against Zamasu. Was that something he perhaps learned from this unseen one day of training after his fight with Vegeta?

They should have had some throwaway comment about him going into the ROSAT for the day.

i suspect it cant be to difficult to learn. Plus, he already seen it vs Cell. So he could have easily copied it.

Some keep saying Goku says Trunks is to weak to fight them, when was this stated?

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/772224990464790529

The sentence literally means the same thing as Trunks being too weak to handle them, since if he were stronger he would be able to handle them, obviously. English

Also has anyone watched the episode subbed? Is this true?

Zamasu even said "You can fight me as much as you'd like to prove you are weak".