Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:23 am

The idea of Saiyans gaining power was mentioned as something separate from Zenkai's as early as the Namek saga.

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:26 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:The idea of Saiyans gaining power was mentioned as something separate from Zenkai's as early as the Namek saga.

And how many times does it actually factor in to anything? Does Goku suddenly become stronger during his fight with Cell? Do Goku and Vegeta get stronger while they're beating the shit out of one another in the Boo arc? Is Goku getting stronger when he fights Kid Boo? No, they don't. And if they do, it's only after they heal, kind of like... oh I don't know... Zenkai?

And even if I accept this possibility, it's a deficient way to gain strength as evidenced by the entire Saiyan race. They didn't actually train or self-improve, they got to a certain power level in life, pretty much stuck there and made slow, nigh worthless gains through just fighting. The absolute pinnacle of their species was Vegeta who lived by this same method and he reached the roaring peak of under 20 000.

TheMikado · Post by **TheMikado** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:30 am

buutenks wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
apex_pretador wrote:this thread needs to be closed. There is nothing that anyone can justify now.
It would probably be easier to cancel the anime or put it on hiatus until the promo manga runs its course and then build a Super Kai off of that. I'm not sure how Toei after all these past experiences specifically with Dragonball still managed to cause such a mess.
Thank God you aren't in charge. Since that is a dumb thing which u just said. To cancel the anime, just because some fans don't want to accept characters powering up quickly.

And I enjoy the anime, I find the manga utterly boring and hollow.

Except it's not, the anime does NOT have itself together interms of writing and story. Right now it looks like a gross failing on the overall production manager. It's certainly going in the right direction now, but it's NOT about just power levels it's the overall production fiascos. Thinking it was only about power levels is an incredibly dumb thing to think. As I specifically stated I would rather see a better version of Super which was appropriately produced than what we are getting now. And if I was in charge that's what you would get. I don't see why anyone should have a problem with that... I prefer quality over availability.

Khin · Post by **Khin** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:33 am

ekrolo2 wrote:The latest episode implies that Trunks is so much better at bullshit power ups than any other character in the history of DB that he could probably kill Whis if he got the God forms. Considering the fact he's comperable to SSBlue Goku with JUST Super Saiyan says as much.

Huh ? Pretty sure he was using Super Saiyan 2 the whole time, it makes 0 sense for him not to use his strongest form while fighting Black and Zamasu. Him having no electrics is just a typical thing in the anime.

I also don't but the whole "Saiyan's get stronger after fighting a strong opponent thing". That's what Zenkai were and they don't exist anymore, if they did the show would point them out. He fights Vegeta once? He's suddenly got the biggest base strength out of all the good guys, after one day.

They're totally different, Zenkai is getting stronger after recovering from a near-death experience which was stated to become very insignificant after the Saiyan achieves Super Saiyan. The other one i mentioned is getting rapidly stronger while/after fighting strong opponents, this was stated by Toriyama himself and in the tournament, where Hit's keeps improving, except he improves his Tokitobashi, not his power.

Plus, Trunks fought Black over and over and over again and it did nothing to raise his power.

Where do get that ? Trunks probably starts out much weaker than he is currently but his multiple encounter Black made him way stronger than before.

In their first battle that was shown in a flashback in episode 51, Trunks got one shotted by Black and wasn't able lay a finger on him, whereas in their fight in episode 48, Trunks is putting up a good fight against Black and managed land and block some hits on him.

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:39 am

Khin wrote:Huh ? Pretty sure he was using Super Saiyan 2 the whole time, it makes 0 sense for him not to use his strongest form while fighting Black and Zamasu. Him having no electrics is just a typical thing in the anime.

Wouldn't be the first time characters used random abilities or forms they don't need anymore in this show.

Khin wrote:They're totally different, Zenkai is getting stronger after recovering from a near-death experience which was stated to become very insignificant after the Saiyan achieves Super Saiyan. The other one i mentioned is getting rapidly stronger while/after fighting strong opponents, this was stated by Toriyama himself and in the tournament, where Hit's keeps improving, except he improves his Tokitobashi, not his power.

Toriyama stated a great many things that don't amount to jack shit anymore. Goku doesn't need Red God anymore but Toriyama is fine with Toyotaro bringing it back. Goku is worth a sixth of Beerus' power except he isn't anymore. Goku and Vegeta don't need anything but their base & SS forms to improve drastically except they still use other, apparently inferior forms for no good reason. Also, as I told another user above, the entire Saiyan race lived by this creed of "just fight people!" and they were worthless shit because of it.

We have never, not once in actual Dragon Ball material with consistency seen a Saiyan or hybrid improve WHILE fighting someone. Only through training or near death injury. In fact, the old material actually goes out of its way to condemn the "just fight dudes" mentality by showing you how far Goku gets through training and practice while Vegeta can't even break into the inner circle of Freeza's empire.

Saiyan's might get a better sense of an opponents strength through battle, they might even pick up on some tricks. But the only time a Saiyan has ever been shown improving drastically is thanks to training or Zenkai. Never while actually fighting someone. The closest thing to what you're talking about is Goku learning how to keep God but that's more of him getting used to a new power instead of increasing it.

Khin wrote:Plus, Trunks fought Black over and over and over again and it did nothing to raise his power.

Where do get that ? Trunks probably starts out much weaker than he is currently but his multiple encounter Black made him way stronger than before.

In their first battle that was shown in a flashback in episode 51, Trunks got one shotted by Black and can't even lay a finger on him, whereas in their fight in episode 48, Trunks is putting up a good fight against Black and managed land and block some hits on him.[/quote]

In episode 48 Black is just screwing with him, Casually laughing off his attacks because he knows Trunks can't actually hurt him any. It doesn't mean anything.

Chiki · Post by **Chiki** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:04 am

I don't think that Trunks's power ups are going to carry on to the next episodes. I bet in the next few eps, when he likely trains, he'll still be unable to sense SSB ki and get his ass kicked by SSB Goku and Vegeta like nothing. I'm fairly confident it was a one episode thing, like Mai surviving Black's ki blast which should have evaporated her.

The ep would have been really lame if Trunks just got his ass kicked by Zamasu and Black and Goku did all the work lol. From a writer's perspective I understand why Trunks had to do so well.

But that still doesn't excuse how stupid this all is. Whether or not you think Trunks was SSG level all along, this kind of power up makes no sense. It's 100% bullshit either way. All Trunks did for training was get beaten up a little by SSB Vegeta and some lame image training...

Khin · Post by **Khin** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:12 am

ekrolo2 wrote:Wouldn't be the first time characters used random abilities or forms they don't need anymore in this show.

I don't see how Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is random in any way, it was literally stated he has the form, and clearly used it more than once.

[spoiler]Toriyama stated a great many things that don't amount to jack shit anymore. Goku doesn't need Red God anymore but Toriyama is fine with Toyotaro bringing it back. Goku is worth a sixth of Beerus' power except he isn't anymore. Goku and Vegeta don't need anything but their base & SS forms to improve drastically except they still use other, apparently inferior forms for no good reason. Also, as I told another user above, the entire Saiyan race lived by this creed of "just fight people!" and they were worthless shit because of it.

We have never, not once in actual Dragon Ball material with consistency seen a Saiyan or hybrid improve WHILE fighting someone. Only through training or near death injury. In fact, the old material actually goes out of its way to condemn the "just fight dudes" mentality by showing you how far Goku gets through training and practice while Vegeta can't even break into the inner circle of Freeza's empire.

Saiyan's might get a better sense of an opponents strength through battle, they might even pick up on some tricks. But the only time a Saiyan has ever been shown improving drastically is thanks to training or Zenkai. Never while actually fighting someone. The closest thing to what you're talking about is Goku learning how to keep God but that's more of him getting used to a new power instead of increasing it.[/spoiler]

So just because Toriyama expressly made some contradictions in some of his interviews it means that all of his interviews is irrelevant ? We know Toriyama said that Goku absorbed the God power, and it's still the same in the anime, we know Toriyama said that zenkais become irrelevant after the Freeza Arc, and it's still case, i don't see how his comment about a Saiyan's special ability can be any different from those i mentioned, especially if it was stated by a character in this very series.

Spoiler:

I can agree that no one in the manga was stated get stronger through fighting an opponent, but it's entirely possible that he only thought of this ability in the new materials. Although i saw many people explaining Nappa's confusing power level by applying the "Saiyans gets rapidly strong while fighting strong opponents" thing, which is entirely plausible, especially seeing how Vegeta at that time believes Nappa can win against Goku even though he knew Nappa's battle power is lower that Goku's.

In episode 48 Black is just screwing with him, Casually laughing off his attacks because he knows Trunks can't actually hurt him any. It doesn't mean anything.

That's silly excuse, he wasn't even casually laughing off Trunks' attacks, Trunks was trading blows with him. Black actually felt the need to take cover on Trunks' Masenko. And after receiving multiple blows from Black, Trunks was still in his SS2 form, whereas in there first fight he reverted back to his regular form just after a single blow from Black.

Black even find Trunks as someone who can get in his way, which is why he was glad he destroyed the Time Machine in episode 50.

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:17 am

I'm I the only one here who thinks that Trunks' only power-up through his training with Vegeta is learning the Final Flash? We didn't get any indication about any other power-up other than that.

ZombieVito wrote:1.- Why do you think Golden Freeza is still stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta?

Why not? We aren't told that they have surpassed him, nor did we get any feat that place them above him.

2.- Don't you think SSJ Trunks > SSJ2 Goku is a bit too much?

Oops. I made a mistake there. Fixed list:

[spoiler]Zenno
Grand Priest
Zenno's Guard #1 | Zenno's Guard #2
Vados | Whis
Hakaishin Beerus | Hakaishin Champa
Super Saiyan Rose Son Goku Black | Future Zamasu
Kaio-ken x10 Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku | Tokitobashi Hit
Kaio-ken Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Golden Freeza
Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta | Super Saiyan Blue Copy-Vegeta
Hit
Son Goku Black
Super Saiyan 3 Son Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Super Saiyan 2 Son Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Zamasu
Magetta
Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Super Saiyan Son Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan God Son Goku
Super Saiyan Cabba
Final Form Frost
Piccolo | Son Gohan
Future Trunks
Assault Form Frost
Son Goku | Vegeta | Copy-Vegeta
Final Form Freeza
Cabba
Frost
Botamo
Freeza
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Majin Boo[/spoiler]

3.- Piccolo and I'm assuming Ultimate Gohan >> Base Goku and Vegeta?
4.- Do you think Gotenks got weaker? Because that's the only way I can see all those people fitting in between him and Gohan.

I don't believe Gotenks got any weaker, we are given no reason to assume such a thing. Piccolo was shown to be strong enough to make a tired Final Form Frost even more tired, and even forced him to cheat, while base Vegeta needed Super Saiyan against this even more tired Frost, so I believe that Piccolo is stronger than base Goku & Vegeta. As for Gohan, he was shown to be on par with Piccolo, so they both became much stronger through their training.

Chiki wrote:I thought you were one of the more reasonable guys here. Even Goku says Trunks is too weak to handle Black or Zamasu, so his performance was complete bullshit whether or not Trunks is SSG level. You were the one who kept explaining that Trunks can't be god level because he can't feel god ki...

Me, I'm very reasonable. Toei on the other hand, not so much. The anime is a mess.

Doctor. · Post by **Doctor.** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:24 am

I think I understand what happened now. Zamasu knows all about Goku, including his fighting style, since he asked Zuno, so that's why he was able to keep up with him for a while. Otherwise, he still has the same strength as before (slightly lower than a SS2) which is why he was being overpowered by Trunks.

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:25 am

Khin wrote:I don't see how Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is random in any way, it was literally stated he has the form, and clearly used it more than once.

Wasn't talking about that, I meant the fact we even have any of the other Super Saiyan forms at all for Goku and Vegeta after the movies went out of their way to retire them.

Khin wrote:So just because Toriyama expressly made some contradictions in some of his interviews it means that all of his interviews is irrelevant ? We know Toriyama said that Goku absorbed the God power, and it's still the same in the anime, we know Toriyama said that zenkais become irrelevant after the Freeza Arc, and it's still case, i don't see how his comment about a Saiyan's special ability can be any different from those i mentioned, especially if it was stated by a character in this very series.

Spoiler:

[/quote]

Because this is Dragon Ball Super, a new set of material that has three different versions of itself all written and handled differently by everyone. The anime in particular makes no sense sometimes from episode to episode or things not making sense WITHIN the same episode! Entire potential concepts like the Book of Legends, keeping your aura inside your body for strength increases, Whis' ROSAT, SSB+KK,... All of its gone for no discernable reason except that it was something cool the writers came up with, put in the episode and promptly forgot about.

Also, in the same episodes where Goku is fighting Hit, Vegeta is fucking blindsided by the concept of a guy improving DURING combat the way Hit is. So what counts more, the one episode Vegeta's surprised by someone being able to do this or the next episode where he's suddenly acting as if this was a special thing to Saiyan's?

Now look, if Super made internal sense I would take its statements seriously, I really would. But it doesn't, It does a really bad job of explaining things then keeping them consistent or sometimes even around for me to take ANYTHING the anime says on power related topics seriously. And yes, Toriyama breaking his own statements in rules either directly or indirectly matters, it leaves us with nothing even remotely concrete to go on.

Khin wrote:That's silly excuse, he wasn't even casually laughing off Trunks' attacks, Trunks was trading blows with him. Black actually felt the need to take cover on Trunks' Masenko. And after receiving multiple blows from Black, Trunks was still in his SS2 form, whereas in there first fight he reverted back to his regular form just after a single blow from Black.

Black even find Trunks as someone who can get in his way, which is why he was glad he destroyed the Time Machine in episode 50.

Black blatantly laughs when Trunks punches him in the gut and continues to smirk during his short skirmish with Trunks all the way through. Literally, nothing Trunks does matters at all to the guy. The only reason Trunks didn't drop dead after two shots is because he's pissed off over Mai and that's giving him enough of an adrenaline rush to ignore the fact he's totally screwed. Wouldn't be the first time this happened for him or someone from Vegeta's family.

emperior · Post by **emperior** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:27 am

I think it's quite obvious in this arc they are trying to push the "Saiyan get stronger with each battle"
Black obviously gets a lot stronger for some reason than normal Saiyans and he's able to do so while in battle. Trunks' hit and run tactic against Black in the future made both of them stronger but when Trunks challenged Black, Black always had the upper hand because he was able to improve in battle.

Even Beerus was impressed by Trunks' Super Saiyan 2 power, and a very trained Goku had to go SSJ3 to beat him.
It makes sense Trunks was able to get a hit on SSR Black if we consider that Black isn't very good at sensing ki yet and Trunks attacked him while he wasn't expecting it. Also Black's Kamehameha wasn't fired with the intention of killing Trunks and Goku but with the goal of wounding them to then finish both off with a combined attack with Zamasu.

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:45 am

emperior wrote:I think it's quite obvious in this arc they are trying to push the "Saiyan get stronger with each battle"
Black obviously gets a lot stronger for some reason than normal Saiyans and he's able to do so while in battle. Trunks' hit and run tactic against Black in the future made both of them stronger but when Trunks challenged Black, Black always had the upper hand because he was able to improve in battle.

Even Beerus was impressed by Trunks' Super Saiyan 2 power, and a very trained Goku had to go SSJ3 to beat him.
It makes sense Trunks was able to get a hit on SSR Black if we consider that Black isn't very good at sensing ki yet and Trunks attacked him while he wasn't expecting it. Also Black's Kamehameha wasn't fired with the intention of killing Trunks and Goku but with the goal of wounding them to then finish both off with a combined attack with Zamasu.

A fine concept if it had any basis in the consistent material but it doesn't. You can't make a sequel to a long running show then introduce a whole new battle function that was never there before and expect us to pretend like it was always there. At least they could have explained Goku and Vegeta gaining rapid strength in combat as them getting more and more used to a new energy source.

DragonHermit · Post by **DragonHermit** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:55 am

The only way this could make sense is if Trunks can already use God Ki, but hasn't mastered to the point of using SSB. Maybe a bit like SSJ Goku vs. Beerus.

KidGoku>3 · Post by **KidGoku>3** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:00 am

The way they made Trunks go head to head with Zamasu basically the same way Goku did on SSB form made me roll my eyes and cringe so hard it took me out of the experience.
Really ? A weak Trunks in SS form is able to handle an opponent the same way a SSB Goku did ? SMDH.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:06 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:The idea of Saiyans gaining power was mentioned as something separate from Zenkai's as early as the Namek saga.
And how many times does it actually factor in to anything? Does Goku suddenly become stronger during his fight with Cell? Do Goku and Vegeta get stronger while they're beating the shit out of one another in the Boo arc? Is Goku getting stronger when he fights Kid Boo? No, they don't. And if they do, it's only after they heal, kind of like... oh I don't know... Zenkai?

And even if I accept this possibility, it's a deficient way to gain strength as evidenced by the entire Saiyan race. They didn't actually train or self-improve, they got to a certain power level in life, pretty much stuck there and made slow, nigh worthless gains through just fighting. The absolute pinnacle of their species was Vegeta who lived by this same method and he reached the roaring peak of under 20 000.

It doesn't need to mean you have to get stronger immediately after the battle. The Saiyan Zenkai is presented as something that happens when the Saiyan heals from near death. Saiyans gaining power battle after battle is presented as a fear of Freeza's that could get worse if it continues.

Not to mention this is something we see from Goku throughout Dragon Ball before Zenkai's were introduced. Vegeta never had to fight someone on his level or greater, so his gains were minuscule. He told Dodoria a Saiyans improvement is much greater if the opponents power is higher.

It might've taken a backseat to Zenkai's and transformations throughout Z, but the concept has been there since the beginning. Weighted Piccolo went from 322 to 329 a day after fighting Raditz and he ain't even a Saiyan. I honestly believe Super is just revisiting the original concept from way back

Doctor. · Post by **Doctor.** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:07 am

KidGoku>3 wrote:The way they made Trunks go head to head with Zamasu basically the same way Goku did on SSB form made me roll my eyes and cringe so hard it took me out of the experience.
Really ? A weak Trunks in SS form is able to handle an opponent the same way a SSB Goku did ? SMDH.

I proposed a theory about this earlier. Zamasu asked Zuno about Goku, so he knows everything about him, including his fighting style. Excluding that and his immortality, he's around the same strength he was before, which is why Trunks was able to beat him.

Chiki · Post by **Chiki** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:14 am

The only way this could make sense is if Trunks can already use God Ki,

No, it doesn't make any sense with or without god ki.

In episode 48, it was Base Black >>>>>> SS2 Trunks

In episode 51, Black received a massive boost, call him Base Black 2. So Base Black 2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SS2 Trunks

Trunks did not really train much in the present, only getting his butt mildly kicked by Vegeta and some image training. So he hasn't really improved. If he has, it has to be not by much.

In episode 56, Black went SSR. So SSR Black is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SS2 Trunks

So it's SSR Black >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Base Black 2 >>>>>>>>>>> Base Black >>>>>>>>>>>> SS2 Trunks

So how the fuck is Trunks fighting SSR Black on an equal level for a bit and tanking his Kamehameha? It makes no sense. It's 100% bullshit.

Khin · Post by **Khin** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:24 am

ekrolo2 wrote:Wasn't talking about that, I meant the fact we even have any of the other Super Saiyan forms at all for Goku and Vegeta after the movies went out of their way to retire them.

There is no in-universe indication that Goku/Vegeta retired their Super Saiyan, 2, and 3 forms in RoF. Goku went straight to Super Saiyan Blue in RoF because he and Freeza promised not to hold anything back.

Because this is Dragon Ball Super, a new set of material that has three different versions of itself all written and handled differently by everyone. The anime in particular makes no sense sometimes from episode to episode or things not making sense WITHIN the same episode! Entire potential concepts like the Book of Legends, keeping your aura inside your body for strength increases, Whis' ROSAT, SSB+KK,... All of its gone for no discernable reason except that it was something cool the writers came up with, put in the episode and promptly forgot about.

Also, in the same episodes where Goku is fighting Hit, Vegeta is fucking blindsided by the concept of a guy improving DURING combat the way Hit is. So what counts more, the one episode Vegeta's surprised by someone being able to do this or the next episode where he's suddenly acting as if this was a special thing to Saiyan's?

Now look, if Super made internal sense I would take its statements seriously, I really would. But it doesn't, It does a really bad job of explaining things then keeping them consistent or sometimes even around for me to take ANYTHING the anime says on power related topics seriously. And yes, Toriyama breaking his own statements in rules either directly or indirectly matters, it leaves us with nothing even remotely concrete to go on.

All those you mentioned are likely just stuff created by Toei writers, one has no reason to be bought up again, and one was explained by Kaio how dangerous it is, and all of them was never bought up again. Whereas the new Saiyan ability came from Toriyama himself. Not only that, but it was also implied in the Copy-Vegeta Arc, where Goku said he and Vegeta got significantly stronger than they were in the tournament (Cause of their fight with Hit?). And now, it seems this was also bought up in the Trunks Arc with Trunks putting up a fight against Zamasu and Black.

Black blatantly laughs when Trunks punches him in the gut and continues to smirk during his short skirmish with Trunks all the way through. Literally, nothing Trunks does matters at all to the guy. The only reason Trunks didn't drop dead after two shots is because he's pissed off over Mai and that's giving him enough of an adrenaline rush to ignore the fact he's totally screwed. Wouldn't be the first time this happened for him or someone from Vegeta's family.

Black laughing while taking damage is clearly just a part of his personality, we saw this in his fight against Goku (Where Goku said he finds it creepy), and against Vegeta. Black felt the need to take cover to Trunks' Masenko, and he was putting up a fight against him and landed a hit, he even deflected Black's ki blast with his sword. That's a major upgrade compared to their first fight where Trunks can't even land a single hit on Black.

buutenks · Post by **buutenks** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:30 am

Again, Trunks gets a RAGE boost. Jeez, how many times do i need to mention it. That is why he did so well. If vegeta can jump from buu saga ssj2 level to buuhan++ level in one instant due to becoming enraged, i see no reason why his own son, who shares his genes cannot do the same thing.

It was good that Trunks got that strong, since we got a unique 2vs2 fight.

Chiki · Post by **Chiki** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:39 am

buutenks wrote:Again, Trunks gets a RAGE boost. Jeez, how many times do i need to mention it. That is why he did so well. If vegeta can jump from buu saga ssj2 level to buuhan++ level in one instant due to becoming enraged, i see no reason why his own son, who shares his genes cannot do the same thing.

It was good that Trunks got that strong, since we got a unique 2vs2 fight.

There's no proof he got a rage boost; it was not only never mentioned, Vegeta's rage boost was clearly different visually (it took longer to charge, plus Vegeta's rage boost had a lot more electricity).

Kanzenshuu

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