Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[buutenks]

There's no proof he got a rage boost; it was not only never mentioned, Vegeta's rage boost was clearly different visually (it took longer to charge, plus Vegeta's rage boost had a lot more electricity).

Trunks blocks Black's ki sword, then yells this time i will defeat you both and his aura triples in size, then he fights evenly with Black for a few seconds. Seems like a rage boost to me.

[Bullza]

So if in the manga SSJ2 Trunks is supposed to be more on par with SSJ3 Goku's Buu level strenght...

Then how are they gonna pull off this whole Goku/Trunks vs Black/Zamasu fight? Fair enough it sort of works in the anime because Trunks is God level himself but in the manga if he isn't then there's going to have to be some significant changes somewhere.

[TheMikado]

So if in the manga SSJ2 Trunks is supposed to be more on par with SSJ3 Goku's Buu level strenght...

Then how are they gonna pull off this whole Goku/Trunks vs Black/Zamasu fight? Fair enough it sort of works in the anime because Trunks is God level himself but in the manga if he isn't then there's going to have to be some significant changes somewhere.

Well it would be easy if Trunks only fights Zamasu who is SSJ2 level which in the anime is already below Trunks.

[Chiki]

There's no proof he got a rage boost; it was not only never mentioned, Vegeta's rage boost was clearly different visually (it took longer to charge, plus Vegeta's rage boost had a lot more electricity).

Trunks blocks Black's ki sword, then yells this time i will defeat you both and his aura triples in size, then he fights evenly with Black for a few seconds. Seems like a rage boost to me.

According to your explanation, Trunks first fights SSR Black equally AND THEN gets a rage boost, so you haven't explained how Trunks fought SSR Black equally temporarily.

[Bullza]

But they'd still need to change the idea of Zamasu 's huge room for improvement making his future self be able to fight on par with SSJB Goku.

If they didn't have Future Zamasu be any stronger than Present Zamasu and he doesn't fight SSJB Goku then it could work. Though I don't know if that would mess up the dynamic between him and Black if they're supposed to be equals.

[buutenks]

According to your explanation, Trunks first fights SSR Black equally AND THEN gets a rage boost, so you haven't explained how Trunks fought SSR Black equally temporarily.

Did u read my post backwards or something? I said, Trunks blocks Black's sword strike, yells and his aura triples in size(aka the rage boost happens) then he fights black evenly for a few seconds.

Trunks gets a rage boost, then he fights with Black evenly and kicks him in the building. Did you even watch the episode?

[TheMikado]

But they'd still need to change the idea of Zamasu 's huge room for improvement making his future self be able to fight on par with SSJB Goku.

If they didn't have Future Zamasu be any stronger than Present Zamasu and he doesn't fight SSJB Goku then it could work. Though I don't know if that would mess up the dynamic between him and Black if they're supposed to be equals.

My money is in Black getting strong enough to disobey Zamasu, since Zamasu is immortal Black can't just kill him either but he can't stop him and Black gets out of hand. I doubt Zamasu is much stronger than his present self since Kaioshin don't seem to be really strong even after being alive for millions of years. That version of the events would make much more sense with established DBZ lore as opposed to Zamasu getting this power boost in literally a blink of an eye for a Kaioshin. I think that's how it will play out in the manga and if it doesn't they will at least have an explanation for it, but ultimately I bet they oair off and never cross fight.

[ZombieVito]

1.- Why do you think Golden Freeza is still stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta?

Why not? We aren't told that they have surpassed him, nor did we get any feat that place them above him.

2.- Don't you think SSJ Trunks > SSJ2 Goku is a bit too much?

Oops. I made a mistake there. Fixed list:

[spoiler]Zenno
Grand Priest
Zenno's Guard #1 | Zenno's Guard #2
Vados | Whis
Hakaishin Beerus | Hakaishin Champa
Super Saiyan Rose Son Goku Black | Future Zamasu
Kaio-ken x10 Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku | Tokitobashi Hit
Kaio-ken Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Golden Freeza
Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta | Super Saiyan Blue Copy-Vegeta
Hit
Son Goku Black
Super Saiyan 3 Son Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Super Saiyan 2 Son Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Zamasu
Magetta
Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Super Saiyan Son Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan God Son Goku
Super Saiyan Cabba
Final Form Frost
Piccolo | Son Gohan
Future Trunks
Assault Form Frost
Son Goku | Vegeta | Copy-Vegeta
Final Form Freeza
Cabba
Frost
Botamo
Freeza
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Majin Boo[/spoiler]

3.- Piccolo and I'm assuming Ultimate Gohan >> Base Goku and Vegeta?
4.- Do you think Gotenks got weaker? Because that's the only way I can see all those people fitting in between him and Gohan.

I don't believe Gotenks got any weaker, we are given no reason to assume such a thing. Piccolo was shown to be strong enough to make a tired Final Form Frost even more tired, and even forced him to cheat, while base Vegeta needed Super Saiyan against this even more tired Frost, so I believe that Piccolo is stronger than base Goku & Vegeta. As for Gohan, he was shown to be on par with Piccolo, so they both became much stronger through their training.

1.- Fair enough.
2.- If Future Trunks is superior to Goku in base, why did Goku caught Trunks punch like nothing?
3.- So you think Gohan in the Champa arc is stronger than his Ultimate form from the Buu arc? Very interesting.

[buutenks]

Established DBZ lore? When i see people writing stuff like that i lol. Seriously, some of you really think those that are making Super, or Toriyama for that matter gives 2 cents on what DBZ established?

[TheMikado]

Established DBZ lore? When i see people writing stuff like that i lol. Seriously, some of you really think those that are making Super, or Toriyama for that matter gives 2 cents on what DBZ established?

Someone does otherwise you'd have a total lack of consistency thoughtout such a long running franchise to a staggering degree. Basically somewhere along the line someone cared enough to write a consistent narrative which built off of established lore such as Oozaru and Namekians. It's laughable to think you can suddenly throw it all out the window when that hasn't been the original authors MO at all.

[buutenks]

Someone does otherwise you'd have a total lack of consistency thoughtout such a long running franchise to a staggering degree. Basically somewhere along the line someone cared enough to write a consistent narrative which built off of established lore such as Oozaru and Namekians. It's laughable to think you can suddenly throw it all out the window when that hasn't been the original authors MO at all.

You said DBZ lore established that kaioshin cant get strong. Ofc idk what does kaioshins from different universes have anything to do with each other, especially since Zamasu was even stated to be a prodigy, while the current kaioshin from u7 is a very weak kaioshin, even by u7 kaioshin standards.

I say, i dont think Toei or Toriyama care that he made the supreme kai super weak in DBZ. Meaning they dont need to make all kaioshins weak. They can easily make a super strong kaioshin who can perhaps give even Beerus a run for his money.

[ekrolo2]

It doesn't need to mean you have to get stronger immediately after the battle. The Saiyan Zenkai is presented as something that happens when the Saiyan heals from near death. Saiyans gaining power battle after battle is presented as a fear of Freeza's that could get worse if it continues.

Not to mention this is something we see from Goku throughout Dragon Ball before Zenkai's were introduced. Vegeta never had to fight someone on his level or greater, so his gains were minuscule. He told Dodoria a Saiyans improvement is much greater if the opponents power is higher.

It might've taken a backseat to Zenkai's and transformations throughout Z, but the concept has been there since the beginning. Weighted Piccolo went from 322 to 329 a day after fighting Raditz and he ain't even a Saiyan. I honestly believe Super is just revisiting the original concept from way back

And it never does anything in Z. Characters literally fight stronger guys all the time and the only instances of them gaining any significant power comes from Zenkai or training. There's not once instance from the Z era of the manga, the one Super is supposedly building off of where anyone fights a much stronger opponent becomes stronger solely from the fight itself. Not. Once.

If anything, the manga that this show is supposedly a sequel of goes out of its way to show you how everyone is tapped out by the Boo Saga and can't make anymore big strength gains by the time they fight Boo.

I don't hate the concept, but you can't just ignore it for a great deal of the series then bring it back and pretend like it was always the case. Even the in material that completely doesn't fit with it. Seriously, if Goku knew he could just keep getting stronger and stronger, why didn't he just keep fighting Cell and eating Senzu until he reached him? It doesn't make sense.

[ekrolo2]

There is no in-universe indication that Goku/Vegeta retired their Super Saiyan, 2, and 3 forms in RoF. Goku went straight to Super Saiyan Blue in RoF because he and Freeza promised not to hold anything back.

That's more of a Toriyama thing that was said being ignored.

All those you mentioned are likely just stuff created by Toei writers, one has no reason to be bought up again, and one was explained by Kaio how dangerous it is, and all of them was never bought up again. Whereas the new Saiyan ability came from Toriyama himself. Not only that, but it was also implied in the Copy-Vegeta Arc, where Goku said he and Vegeta got significantly stronger than they were in the tournament (Cause of their fight with Hit?). And now, it seems this was also bought up in the Trunks Arc with Trunks putting up a fight against Zamasu and Black.

That's precisely the problem though, there's quite a few things that both the Toei writers and Toriyama himself have brought up in relation to the new material that gets ignored its hard to take anything anyone says about the anime seriously. The Copy-Vegeta thing even being something Toriyama made is particularly questionable since the manga completely ignores it and doesn't even bring it up as a thing that happened off screen.

My secondary issue is that there's no in-universe reason for this ability. As I explained to another user, you can't bring something like this in and then pretend it was always the case when we know for a fact it wasn't. It didn't need to be a problem, they easily could've said this is a new growth power Goku and Vegeta got by becoming Gods but they didn't: EVERYONE is making ridiculous strength gains after the Boo Saga pretty much has everyone but Goten, Trunks, Oob and Pan be tapped out.

Black laughing while taking damage is clearly just a part of his personality, we saw this in his fight against Goku (Where Goku said he finds it creepy), and against Vegeta. Black felt the need to take cover to Trunks' Masenko, and he was putting up a fight against him and landed a hit, he even deflected Black's ki blast with his sword. That's a major upgrade compared to their first fight where Trunks can't even land a single hit on Black.

The fight with Goku also shows a distinct difference between how Goku fares up to him instead of Trunks. When Goku and him fight and Goku hits him, Black gets visibly hurt as we see from his messed up appearance and constant chest clunching. When Trunks and Vegeta fight him, nothing effects him, he's just taking the hits without any indication it actually hurts him any.

[Bullza]

Perhaps the Supreme Kai never trained.He doesn't seem he type nor is there much of a reason for him to.

Zamasu as a fighting prodigy though would surely have trained. I suppose if he's millions of years old maybe the idea he'd get much stronger in just 17 years is kind of odd but we're probably not supposed to over think that.

[Chiki]

According to your explanation, Trunks first fights SSR Black equally AND THEN gets a rage boost, so you haven't explained how Trunks fought SSR Black equally temporarily.

Did u read my post backwards or something? I said, Trunks blocks Black's sword strike, yells and his aura triples in size(aka the rage boost happens) then he fights black evenly for a few seconds.

Trunks gets a rage boost, then he fights with Black evenly and kicks him in the building. Did you even watch the episode?

Trunks blocks Black's ki sword, then yells this time i will defeat you both and his aura triples in size, then he fights evenly with Black for a few seconds. Seems like a rage boost to me.

His aura triples in size (AKA he gets his rage boost) only after blocking Black's ki sword, which he shouldn't be able to do at all.

And also a rage boost shouldn't allow Trunks to fight SSR Black when SSR Black is hundreds of times stronger than Trunks, SSG or not.

[GodKaio-Ken]

According to your explanation, Trunks first fights SSR Black equally AND THEN gets a rage boost, so you haven't explained how Trunks fought SSR Black equally temporarily.

Did u read my post backwards or something? I said, Trunks blocks Black's sword strike, yells and his aura triples in size(aka the rage boost happens) then he fights black evenly for a few seconds.

Trunks gets a rage boost, then he fights with Black evenly and kicks him in the building. Did you even watch the episode?

Trunks blocks Black's ki sword, then yells this time i will defeat you both and his aura triples in size, then he fights evenly with Black for a few seconds. Seems like a rage boost to me.

His aura triples in size (AKA he gets his rage boost) only after blocking Black's ki sword, which he shouldn't be able to do at all.

And also a rage boost shouldn't allow Trunks to fight SSR Black when SSR Black is hundreds of times stronger than Trunks, SSG or not.

Why shouldn't he be able to catch the blade:

1) There is no evidence Zamasu or Black was going full power and dialogue which IMO actually proves the opposite.

2) If it works like a regular blade at all...he caught it from the sides and not the edge which makes it easier.

[Khin]

That's more of a Toriyama thing that was said being ignored.

The problem with Toriyama's statement is that he said that way before Dragon Ball Super was even announced and was never brought up in-universe, so it's entirely possible that statement no longer applies. Whereas the new Saiyan ability was actually brought up in Super which means Toriyama or Toei didn't ignore or forget that statement.

That's precisely the problem though, there's quite a few things that both the Toei writers and Toriyama himself have brought up in relation to the new material that gets ignored its hard to take anything anyone says about the anime seriously. The Copy-Vegeta thing even being something Toriyama made is particularly questionable since the manga completely ignores it and doesn't even bring it up as a thing that happened off screen.

Toriyama's contradictions in his statements like Goku no longer using the SSG again yet allowed Toyotaro to use it again is entirely different compared to the Saiyan ability. It was never implied in the manga that Goku can/will no longer use the Red form, whereas the Saiyan ability was stated in-universe. Things like Namekian Book of Legends or Whis' RoSaT are likely Toei addition that will probably never appear again, but the special Saiyan ability that came Toriyama was brought up was implied in the Copy-Vegeta Arc and Trunks Arc. It doesn't matter whether Copy Arc is from Toriyama or not, because Super anime is still mainly written by Toei, it's possible that Toei was the one who brought this new ability, but Toriyama can also be the one who brought this up and Toei merely used the Copy Arc to show that Goku and Vegeta got stronger than before while applying the concept at the same time.

My secondary issue is that there's no in-universe reason for this ability. As I explained to another user, you can't bring something like this in and then pretend it was always the case when we know for a fact it wasn't. It didn't need to be a problem, they easily could've said this is a new growth power Goku and Vegeta got by becoming Gods but they didn't: EVERYONE is making ridiculous strength gains after the Boo Saga pretty much has everyone but Goten, Trunks, Oob and Pan be tapped out.

That's the problem you have, you can't just ignore a certain ability that was actually stated in-universe, whether it makes sense or not.

I see no reason why would you ignore a certain ability that came from the main author and was brought up in-universe. It's like Trunks' blue hair, he was clearly shown to have a purple hair in Z and Kai (And was even shown in a flashback in episode 47 in Super) yet Super acts like Trunks have blue hair from the get-go, that can easily be the case for the Saiyan ability here.

The fight with Goku also shows a distinct difference between how Goku fares up to him instead of Trunks. When Goku and him fight and Goku hits him, Black gets visibly hurt as we see from his messed up appearance and constant chest clunching. When Trunks and Vegeta fight him, nothing effects him, he's just taking the hits without any indication it actually hurts him any.

The two fights aren't even comparable, Trunks only landed a single heavy-blow on Black, whereas Goku landed multiple hits and caught Black off-guard. Not only that, Trunks was considerably weaker than Black (Which means the amount of damage dealt is likely not that big) whereas Black and Goku at that time are fighting at an equal level, so it's obvious that Black will take bigger damage to Goku's attacks that Trunks'.

[ekrolo2]

The problem with Toriyama's statement is that he said that way before Dragon Ball Super was even announced and was never brought up in-universe, so it's entirely possible that statement no longer applies. Whereas the new Saiyan ability was actually brought up in Super which means Toriyama or Toei didn't ignore or forget that statement.

He also said most of the other stuff before Dragon Ball Super and they chose to ignore that as well. I see no reason why they'd ignore everything else and just decide "Hrm, Saiyan's getting stronger as they fight should stay!". If anything, the whole growth thing was just brought up because Hit made a big deal of it, I doubt it'll factor into anything again.

Toriyama's contradictions in his statements like Goku no longer using the SSG again yet allowed Toyotaro to use it again is entirely different compared to the Saiyan ability. It was never implied in the manga that Goku can/will no longer use the Red form, whereas the Saiyan ability was stated in-universe. Things like Namekian Book of Legends or Whis' RoSaT are likely Toei addition that will probably never appear again, but the special Saiyan ability that came Toriyama was brought up was implied in the Copy-Vegeta Arc and Trunks Arc. It doesn't matter whether Copy Arc is from Toriyama or not, because Super anime is still mainly written by Toei, it's possible that Toei was the one who brought this new ability, but Toriyama can also be the one who brought this up and Toei merely used the Copy Arc to show that Goku and Vegeta got stronger than before while applying the concept at the same time.

See my previous reasoning for why I REALLY doubt this is anything more than a Toei line added in to try and explain a power related thing then promptly forgotten about. Keeping your aura in was another one they used to try and explain vast growth, a concept I actually really liked that disappeared too. The Saiyan growth ability has literally only ever factored in for Black thus far who's a weird, whatever the fuck implied to be using Goku's body through unnatural means. Literally no other character is ever made a big deal out of improving through raw combat like this. Even Hit's improvement is just him strengthening his technique instead of just powering all of his stats up.

That's the problem you have, you can't just ignore a certain ability that was actually stated in-universe, whether it makes sense or not. Like Turlast said, this ability was already present even in the Namek Arc, but was only focused here in the new materials.

I see no reason why would you ignore a certain ability that came from the main author and was brought up in-universe. It's like Trunks' blue hair, he was clearly shown to have a purple hair in Z and Kai (And was even shown in a flashback in episode 47 in Super) yet Super acts like Trunks have blue hair from the get-go, that can easily be the case for the Saiyan ability here.

I can ignore it if I've got solid ground to say "The writers are just going to say the hell with it at some point so why should I take it seriously?". If the manga made it a point to show this ability as the de facto means for why the Saiyan's get stronger I might feel more confident about trusting the validity of this since the manga is leaps and bounds better written and more consistent than the anime. But there's no indication that this is the case, if anything the manga goes out of its way to show Goku & Vegeta struggling with God power while the anime has them say they're tapped out at the start of the tournament then apparently considerably stronger 10 episodes later from fighting! What the hell?!

I'm not making that up either, in episode 30 something Goku and Vegeta talk about going into the ROSAT and Vegeta goes on a whole spiel about how pointless it is since they're as strong as they're gonna get. Now? They fight a few dudes and they're considerably more powerful. So which is it, are they tapped out or just scratching the surface?

The two fights aren't even comparable, Trunks only landed a single heavy-blow on Black, whereas Goku landed multiple hits and caught Black off-guard. Not only that, Trunks was considerably weaker than Black (Which means the amount of damage dealt is likely not that big) whereas Black and Goku at that time are fighting at an equal level, so it's obvious that Black will take bigger damage to Goku's attacks that Trunks'.

Try the damage was nothing. Dragon Ball fights work like this: if you're not stronger or on par with the other guy, he will fucking kill you even if there's a small difference in power. If anything, Black even being bothered by Trunks' attacks is the big issue here since he's an inferior fighter giving the other guy trouble. And I know for a fact the damage is nothing because we saw what happens when Black is actually hurt at all: he looks hurt. The fact it took Goku being on par with Black to legitimately hurt him shows that him not laughing off every one of Trunks' attacks IS totall bullshit.

If Super setup its own set of rules that it kept consistently, I would be fine with stuff like this but it doesn't. The only thing that's consistent is that characters become as strong or as weak at any given moment as the plot/animators need them to be. There's nothing like the old Z thing of trying to create a clear hierarchy of strength or valid reasonings for power increases: shit just happens.

[TheMikado]

Perhaps the Supreme Kai never trained.He doesn't seem he type nor is there much of a reason for him to.

Zamasu as a fighting prodigy though would surely have trained. I suppose if he's millions of years old maybe the idea he'd get much stronger in just 17 years is kind of odd but we're probably not supposed to over think that.

That's true, but I'm waiting for the manga because I don't believe he'll be SSG/SSB level which will give me some clarity. In the anime I'll just accept he's as strong as needed to put on a flashy fight and make kids go "Cool!"

[TheMikado]

If Super setup its own set of rules that it kept consistently, I would be fine with stuff like this but it doesn't. The only thing that's consistent is that characters become as strong or as weak at any given moment as the plot/animators need them to be. There's nothing like the old Z thing of trying to create a clear hierarchy of strength or valid reasonings for power increases: shit just happens.

This 100%. Super does have legitimately good things going on in this arc but there are aspects of it that are sloppily done.