"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Yeah, I'll never really understand the tone complaints. Sure, Yoka-Yoka Dance is a rather energetic idol song, but it's honestly not not all that different from watching Goku find Kuririn murdered by Tambourine and then transitioning right into I’ll Give You Romance, Or sandwhiching Freeza surviving the Genki Dama, wounding Piccolo, killing Kuririn and Goku unleashing his inner Super Saiyan between two rather nonsensical songs like Cha-La Head-Cha-La and Zenkai Power.

[Noah]

No, I hope Goku and the others lose for good this time, I think we had enough of heroes always winning, Super could innovate with a story were the villains have a ultimate win.

Ehhh I don't really know how you could have something like that happen without the series ending.

We had Beerus beat Goku so the "antagonist" won that time but he wasn't he kind of antagonist that was going to kill all the main cast afterward.

Don't you see? We actually have interesting villains, so I fail to see the problem in rooting to them achieve their objective, even if that includes killing everyone we love.

I'd like it towards the end of the series as fusion between Goku and Vegeta, feels like an end game level of power.

I don't think it will, considering we have guys like Daishinkan, Zeno attendents and the Zeno himself, Vegetto may be still below some characters in terms of power.

[Vados_chan]

Yeah, I'll never really understand the tone complaints. Sure, Yoka-Yoka Dance is a rather energetic idol song, but it's honestly not not all that different from watching Goku find Kuririn murdered by Tambourine and then transitioning right into I’ll Give You Romance, Or sandwhiching Freeza surviving the Genki Dama, wounding Piccolo, killing Kuririn and Goku unleashing his inner Super Saiyan between two rather nonsensical songs like Cha-La Head-Cha-La and Zenkai Power.

You didn't know? DB is supposed to be edgy and serious with no comedy and only fighting and powerups

[Anime Kitten]

The only answers I received to my question were aimed towards the portion I specifically mentioned to ignore in this instance. Besides the light tone.

(Huge apologies if this comes across as rude. I'm not angry about anything here! )

[Alee9977]

Yeah, I'll never really understand the tone complaints. Sure, Yoka-Yoka Dance is a rather energetic idol song, but it's honestly not not all that different from watching Goku find Kuririn murdered by Tambourine and then transitioning right into I’ll Give You Romance, Or sandwhiching Freeza surviving the Genki Dama, wounding Piccolo, killing Kuririn and Goku unleashing his inner Super Saiyan between two rather nonsensical songs like Cha-La Head-Cha-La and Zenkai Power.

You didn't know? DB is supposed to be edgy and serious with no comedy and only fighting and powerups

No, DB always had comedy on it, just because it wasn't used a lot in Z doesn't mean that never existed, DB was supposed to be a magical and funny adventure where Goku and Bulma were looking for the Dragon Balls, the fights and power ups came later.
I"m ok with the comedy on Super right now, and also I'm glad they aren't using any comedy in episodes like 57 or 56 that could ruin a tense moment.

[kinisking]

Yeah, I'll never really understand the tone complaints. Sure, Yoka-Yoka Dance is a rather energetic idol song, but it's honestly not not all that different from watching Goku find Kuririn murdered by Tambourine and then transitioning right into I’ll Give You Romance, Or sandwhiching Freeza surviving the Genki Dama, wounding Piccolo, killing Kuririn and Goku unleashing his inner Super Saiyan between two rather nonsensical songs like Cha-La Head-Cha-La and Zenkai Power.

You didn't know? DB is supposed to be edgy and serious with no comedy and only fighting and powerups

No, DB always had comedy on it, just because it wasn't used a lot in Z doesn't mean that never existed, DB was supposed to be a magical and funny adventure where Goku and Bulma were looking for the Dragon Balls, the fights and power ups came later.
I"m ok with the comedy on Super right now, and also I'm glad they aren't using any comedy in episodes like 57 or 56 that could ruin a tense moment.

He's being sarcastic bro

[kinisking]

That is why I think they are at their best during the slice of life episodes.

I just have a strong hate towards comments about them having no personality and they're just one half of Gotenks. So, no personality? Somehow Gotenks gets one then?

I like kid trunks, and goten too. Kid trunks more though. Goten fits best as a supporting character. He's best when he's showing love and respect to Goku, Gohan, or Trunks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q1Cd9rG52w This melts my heart.

[LightBing]

I would sincerely love to see if Dragon Ball Z was going on now. I wonder if people would repeat the complains.
Let's say the Cell Games:

1. SSJ2 and the grades would be the "recolors". "Adding sparkles and muscles, so lazy!"
2. Mr.Satan would be the Pilaf Gang.
3. Piccolo's fight with #17 would be his tournament fight. "He was just there for Cell to locate the Androids, such disrespect towards the character!"
4. The only the Saiyans matter conversation would start developing, with the humans and Piccolo entering that road.
5. The tournament format would be criticized as repeating old concepts.
6. Only Goku and Gohan fight in the tournament. "Goku and Gohan show!!"
7. Yamcha would be Gohan.

I could continue but I've made my point. Super had an awful start, there's no denying that. However the last arc arc and the current one could have fitted anywhere in Dragon Ball and they would be deemed from average to very good, if they existed today (the current arc as it stands, still might turn sour).
The BoG arc was lower quality from the movie, still the movie is great and hopefully people see it like a Raditz arc type (maybe a disclaimer to ignore the arc and watch the movie instead is in order).

I think people should have some perspective.
Maybe make fair criticisms either good or bad, not taking the worst of Super and compare it with the best of Dragon Ball and vice-versa.

[dbzfan7]

I would sincerely love to see if Dragon Ball Z was going on now. I wonder if people would repeat the complains.
Let's say the Cell Games:

1. SSJ2 and the grades would be the "recolors". "Adding sparkles and muscles, so lazy!"
2. Mr.Satan would be the Pilaf Gang.
3. Piccolo's fight with #17 would be his tournament fight. "He was just there for Cell to locate the Androids, such disrespect towards the character!"
4. The only the Saiyans matter conversation would start developing, with the humans and Piccolo entering that road.
5. The tournament format would be criticized as repeating old concepts.
6. Only Goku and Gohan fight in the tournament. "Goku and Gohan show!!"
7. Yamcha would be Gohan.

.

-Grades were terribly boring. No denying that. Who glorified those forms? I think a lot of people even forget their existence because of how lame they were. They are worse than the recolours for just pumping up muscles, though both share about the same amount of thought put in them. Trunks is the only one who made it work for him by making the form feel different. SSJ2 Gohan however looked different, distinct, and awesome with one of the most iconic transformations in the past. Hell it was so good a lot people only think of SSJ2 Gohan as the true Gohan for some reason. That's how big its impact was and left to this day.

If this was Super Saiyan Goku, I'd be pretty let down
[spoiler][/spoiler]

-Mr. Satan's shtick ranged to funny, or obnoxious depending on the person as his character development hadn't really kicked off yet. Pilaf Gang were fun for their time, but feel like an old joke brought back. They also don't really contribute anything, while Mr. Satan grew into something special. Mai maybe has got a shot. Though you could say Monaka essentially is the Mr. Satan joke done worse.

-Piccolo was the strongest person at the time, and the only one who could do anything at the time. Win or lose at the tournament hardly means shit for Piccolo. The world rid on his success to beat Cell as not even Goku would be useful. Piccolo is more useful than Goku of all people right here. While at the tournament he could forfeit and it wouldn't mean a thing. He could not show up and have a another new U7 character, and we don't lose anything.

-No denying that. It did start here, and people shit on the Boo arc for the whole saiyan centric thing. It's huge common complaint. Hell the Boo arc is widely seen as the worst arc, though lately the Cell arc has been topping those lists from what I've seen. A common consensus has been the series dipped after Freeza. I can't count the amount of times I saw hate for the Boo arc. So it's not like Super only got hate for it's arc.

-Not really sure how considering it's a everyone vs Cell 1 on 1 thing. Never saw a tournament do that before. If there was actually a tournament to dictate who'd face Cell, this would have more of a point.

-We already saw Trunks and Vegeta take on Cell. What difference would a rematch accomplish? It would be a repeat before we get fresh match ups. We never saw Goku or Gohan take Cell on so it's fresh match up. They had their turn and a chunk of the story focused on them, so why do they need even more time against the same opponent? Goku himself has been out of the story for a ridiculous long time, and even when awake he takes a back seat to Piccolo because he's too weak to fight.

-Was already getting that ridicule long before Cell .

Hell one of the most common criticism I keep seeing is "Dragon Ball/Z did this dumb ass thing, so Super can do this dumb ass thing." But why continue to promote stupid stuff Dragon Ball or Z did? It has it's share of problems that Super has improved on lately. The highs of Super are pretty friggin awesome, but the lows...dear god the lows are absolutely terrible.

[Chuquita]

NewType comes out the end of this week! That means episode summaries and staff listings!
I'm really curious as to who's writing this coming weekend's episode.

[alakazam^]

I would sincerely love to see if Dragon Ball Z was going on now. I wonder if people would repeat the complains.
Let's say the Cell Games:

1. SSJ2 and the grades would be the "recolors". "Adding sparkles and muscles, so lazy!"
2. Mr.Satan would be the Pilaf Gang.
3. Piccolo's fight with #17 would be his tournament fight. "He was just there for Cell to locate the Androids, such disrespect towards the character!"
4. The only the Saiyans matter conversation would start developing, with the humans and Piccolo entering that road.
5. The tournament format would be criticized as repeating old concepts.
6. Only Goku and Gohan fight in the tournament. "Goku and Gohan show!!"
7. Yamcha would be Gohan.

I could continue but I've made my point. Super had an awful start, there's no denying that. However the last arc arc and the current one could have fitted anywhere in Dragon Ball and they would be deemed from average to very good, if they existed today (the current arc as it stands, still might turn sour).
The BoG arc was lower quality from the movie, still the movie is great and hopefully people see it like a Raditz arc type (maybe a disclaimer to ignore the arc and watch the movie instead is in order).

I think people should have some perspective.
Maybe make fair criticisms either good or bad, not taking the worst of Super and compare it with the best of Dragon Ball and vice-versa.

Yeah, not to mention the recent "this isn't Toriyama's idea" argument, which would fit perfectly in the Cell arc.

Super didn't have an awful start though, people were just expecting too much and didn't make an effort to understand what was going on backstage.

[dbzfan7]

NewType comes out the end of this week! That means episode summaries and staff listings!
I'm really curious as to who's writing this coming weekend's episode.

Curious where they go from here too. What the next step is for them as they couldn't win. Definitely one of the most anticipated waiting periods I've had with Super so far.

[LightBing]

[spoiler]-Grades were terribly boring. No denying that. Who glorified those forms? I think a lot of people even forget their existence because of how lame they were. They are worse than the recolours for just pumping up muscles, though both share about the same amount of thought put in them. Trunks is the only one who made it work for him by making the form feel different. SSJ2 Gohan however looked different, distinct, and awesome with one of the most iconic transformations in the past. Hell it was so good a lot people only think of SSJ2 Gohan as the true Gohan for some reason. That's how big its impact was and left to this day.

If this was Super Saiyan Goku, I'd be pretty let down
Spoiler:View


-Mr. Satan's shtick ranged to funny, or obnoxious depending on the person as his character development hadn't really kicked off yet. Pilaf Gang were fun for their time, but feel like an old joke brought back. They also don't really contribute anything, while Mr. Satan grew into something special. Mai maybe has got a shot. Though you could say Monaka essentially is the Mr. Satan joke done worse.

-Piccolo was the strongest person at the time, and the only one who could do anything at the time. Win or lose at the tournament hardly means shit for Piccolo. The world rid on his success to beat Cell as not even Goku would be useful. Piccolo is more useful than Goku of all people right here. While at the tournament he could forfeit and it wouldn't mean a thing. He could not show up and have a another new U7 character, and we don't lose anything.

-No denying that. It did start here, and people shit on the Boo arc for the whole saiyan centric thing. It's huge common complaint. Hell the Boo arc is widely seen as the worst arc, though lately the Cell arc has been topping those lists from what I've seen. A common consensus has been the series dipped after Freeza. I can't count the amount of times I saw hate for the Boo arc. So it's not like Super only got hate for it's arc.

-Not really sure how considering it's a everyone vs Cell 1 on 1 thing. Never saw a tournament do that before. If there was actually a tournament to dictate who'd face Cell, this would have more of a point.

-We already saw Trunks and Vegeta take on Cell. What difference would a rematch accomplish? It would be a repeat before we get fresh match ups. We never saw Goku or Gohan take Cell on so it's fresh match up. They had their turn and a chunk of the story focused on them, so why do they need even more time against the same opponent? Goku himself has been out of the story for a ridiculous long time, and even when awake he takes a back seat to Piccolo because he's too weak to fight.

-Was already getting that ridicule long before Cell .

Hell one of the most common criticism I keep seeing is "Dragon Ball/Z did this dumb ass thing, so Super can do this dumb ass thing." But why continue to promote stupid stuff Dragon Ball or Z did? It has it's share of problems that Super has improved on lately. The highs of Super are pretty friggin awesome, but the lows...dear god the lows are absolutely terrible.[/spoiler]

My point is to highlight how Super maintains the Dragon Ball route: for those who unlike you don't bother to write more than three words regarding a topic and just eviscerate it and reminisce about the good old days; and those who praise it blindly(this kind is rarer).

Aren't these old plots and concepts close enough to current instances for it to create the common criticisms, we always hear around here?
We can actually have discussions regarding the good and the bad, instead of "recolors, lol"(to exaggerate) or to take the point home "sparks, lol".

I could say you're over romanticizing SSJ2, when compared with SSJB for example. SSJB didn't have his iconic moment, it's still symbolic to reaching the level of Gods without the ritual and it's much more distinct from it's "parent" transformation.
While I don't think the SSJB moment will ever be compared to SSJ2 moment (not even close), it's clear it suffers from being new. Maybe in five years we'll be talking about it in a different and more positive light.
People usually only discuss the design of the transformations, isolating this to the minimum. SSJ2 suffer from the same simplicity sin as SSJB, I would say SSJ2 is even worse in that regard.

Note that I'm not bringing down SSJ2 or elevating SSJB, but you know nuance is nice and actually worth discussing. It would be nice seeing it all around.

Yeah, not to mention the recent "this isn't Toriyama's idea" argument, which would fit perfectly in the Cell arc.

Super didn't have an awful start though, people were just expecting too much and didn't make an effort to understand what was going on backstage.

Didn't remember about that one.

Even knowing what was going on backstage doesn't stop it from being bad. Awful might be a bit harsh, still the BoG is very weak and bar a few episodes it's BoG the movie, done much, much worse. Not talking about animation or anything of that sort, the comedy is much cringe at some points, the differences are few and unenthusiastic and what they did change(Namekian Book of Legends) turns into nothing, or inconsistencies (Vegeta 10% line).

[fadeddreams5]

I would sincerely love to see if Dragon Ball Z was going on now. I wonder if people would repeat the complains.
Let's say the Cell Games:

1. SSJ2 and the grades would be the "recolors". "Adding sparkles and muscles, so lazy!"
2. Mr.Satan would be the Pilaf Gang.
3. Piccolo's fight with #17 would be his tournament fight. "He was just there for Cell to locate the Androids, such disrespect towards the character!"
4. The only the Saiyans matter conversation would start developing, with the humans and Piccolo entering that road.
5. The tournament format would be criticized as repeating old concepts.
6. Only Goku and Gohan fight in the tournament. "Goku and Gohan show!!"
7. Yamcha would be Gohan.

Eh. It's unreasonable to compare the Cell arc to the modern ones. Way different standards now. The android saga occurred after Goku had just acquired SSJ and was the only known SSJ. If there had been no new story arc since the Namek saga up until 2016, the main complaint surrounding the "new" android saga wouldn't be anything you mentioned, but rather the fact that a pair of androids are stronger than Frieza and SSJs in general. Fans would have bitched for months on end. Furthermore, with the expansion of the internet, the story would have also been criticized for coming off as a bad fanfiction. Bulma getting it on with Vegeta? Mysterious new character a SSJ and son of two previously established characters that had absolutely no connections with each other? Gritty apocalyptic future? Frieza returning and getting easily swept aside? "Booo!! The original was sooo much better!!" That said, the people that gave it a chance beyond the first three episodes would have fallen in love.

But to address the points you mentioned:
- As I mentioned, SSJ was the only known transformation prior to this saga, so nobody would have had any expectations surrounding any new forms. Hell, nobody would have wanted them (at least until they got them), so the subtle changes of the grades and SSJ2 would have been welcomed regardless.

- Nobody liked Mr. Satan and his gang's participation in the Cell Games to begin with. I always read/hear backlash.

- Piccolo's fights contributed to something and were cool. If anything, something like this is what people are asking for in Super.

- Tien, Piccolo, Krillin, and even Yamcha had their moments in this saga, so that point is mute. Yeah, the saiyans are the powerhouses, but they each still did something of value.

- The Cell Games was actually an original concept, not a typical tenkaichi. Besides, Cell purposely modeled it to be a throwback.

- It wasn't a tournament. It was a game for Cell. Hence, the Cell games. Vegeta and Trunks also previously fought against him, so in the end, everyone that mattered managed to get a piece of the main villain. It only made sense for Goku and Gohan to be the next to participate. Furthermore, everyone, including the humans, had to step up against the Cell Jrs.

- Who cares about Yamcha in a story arc like this? I mean, seriously. He's been a joke since he was introduced (funny one too). Gohan was almost immediately a powerhouse with more potential than any other character--in terms of strength--when first introduced.

[dbzfan7]

[spoiler]-Grades were terribly boring. No denying that. Who glorified those forms? I think a lot of people even forget their existence because of how lame they were. They are worse than the recolours for just pumping up muscles, though both share about the same amount of thought put in them. Trunks is the only one who made it work for him by making the form feel different. SSJ2 Gohan however looked different, distinct, and awesome with one of the most iconic transformations in the past. Hell it was so good a lot people only think of SSJ2 Gohan as the true Gohan for some reason. That's how big its impact was and left to this day.

If this was Super Saiyan Goku, I'd be pretty let down
Spoiler:View


-Mr. Satan's shtick ranged to funny, or obnoxious depending on the person as his character development hadn't really kicked off yet. Pilaf Gang were fun for their time, but feel like an old joke brought back. They also don't really contribute anything, while Mr. Satan grew into something special. Mai maybe has got a shot. Though you could say Monaka essentially is the Mr. Satan joke done worse.

-Piccolo was the strongest person at the time, and the only one who could do anything at the time. Win or lose at the tournament hardly means shit for Piccolo. The world rid on his success to beat Cell as not even Goku would be useful. Piccolo is more useful than Goku of all people right here. While at the tournament he could forfeit and it wouldn't mean a thing. He could not show up and have a another new U7 character, and we don't lose anything.

-No denying that. It did start here, and people shit on the Boo arc for the whole saiyan centric thing. It's huge common complaint. Hell the Boo arc is widely seen as the worst arc, though lately the Cell arc has been topping those lists from what I've seen. A common consensus has been the series dipped after Freeza. I can't count the amount of times I saw hate for the Boo arc. So it's not like Super only got hate for it's arc.

-Not really sure how considering it's a everyone vs Cell 1 on 1 thing. Never saw a tournament do that before. If there was actually a tournament to dictate who'd face Cell, this would have more of a point.

-We already saw Trunks and Vegeta take on Cell. What difference would a rematch accomplish? It would be a repeat before we get fresh match ups. We never saw Goku or Gohan take Cell on so it's fresh match up. They had their turn and a chunk of the story focused on them, so why do they need even more time against the same opponent? Goku himself has been out of the story for a ridiculous long time, and even when awake he takes a back seat to Piccolo because he's too weak to fight.

-Was already getting that ridicule long before Cell .

Hell one of the most common criticism I keep seeing is "Dragon Ball/Z did this dumb ass thing, so Super can do this dumb ass thing." But why continue to promote stupid stuff Dragon Ball or Z did? It has it's share of problems that Super has improved on lately. The highs of Super are pretty friggin awesome, but the lows...dear god the lows are absolutely terrible.[/spoiler]

My point is to highlight how Super maintains the Dragon Ball route: for those who unlike you don't bother to write more than three words regarding a topic and just eviscerate it and reminisce about the good old days; and those who praise it blindly(this kind is rarer).

Aren't these old plots and concepts close enough to current instances for it to create the common criticisms, we always hear around here?
We can actually have discussions regarding the good and the bad, instead of "recolors, lol"(to exaggerate) or to take the point home "sparks, lol".

I could say you're over romanticizing SSJ2, when compared with SSJB for example. SSJB didn't have his iconic moment, it's still symbolic to reaching the level of Gods without the ritual and it's much more distinct from it's "parent" transformation.
While I don't think the SSJB moment will ever be compared to SSJ2 moment (not even close), it's clear it suffers from being new. Maybe in five years we'll be talking about it in a different and more positive light.
People usually only discuss the design of the transformations, isolating this to the minimum. SSJ2 suffer from the same simplicity sin as SSJB, I would say SSJ2 is even worse in that regard.

Note that I'm not bringing down SSJ2 or elevating SSJB, but you know nuance is nice and actually worth discussing. It would be nice seeing it all around.

I'm going to disagree. SSJ God is more distinct and original than SSJ Blue is. It's more unique, changes the build, SSJ3 eyes, new aura, interesting new way of obtaining it, sharper defined hair, skin gets darker and kinda more orange. SSJ Blue has unique aura...and blue hair...rips off previous SSJ...and has a very unknown vague way of it being achieved, which was the sin of SSJ3. The thing with SSJ2 is Vegeta really brings it down considering he doesn't really benefit from changing styles. He's always had it the worst. Everyone else though had something more distinct and different, cept when they made it all confusing with Gohan as an adult. SSJ Blue is exactly what I have seen on deviantart for literal years. It's no different than this.

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

It does not suffer from being new. It suffers from lack of any real grandeur and lore, as well as relying too much on a previously established look. That's what it suffers from. SSJ2 suffers with Vegeta, and arguably adult Gohan. Even then you have SSJ3 and SSJ4. Both new interesting takes and extensions on the original form. Whether I like em or not, and I ain't crazy about 3, at least it tried. I'd agree with SSJB Vegeta looking better than SSJ2 Vegeta, as Vegeta always sucked when it came to new forms outside of Super Saiyan 4.

And you know the worst part? It's so damn pointless. At least the grade forms taught us how buffing up was the wrong way of doing things, and basically told us that form sucked. Yeah the big lesson of crappy grade forms is, they suck and should never be used because they're worthless. There is no good reason to abandon Super Saiyan God, which was perfectly fine. Even Golden Freeza has a purpose despite me feeling it's also lackluster. So I can appreciate why it's there. Super Saiyan God could have been mastered instead of having blue, and we don't lose a damn thing. We get more mileage out of a pretty decent form, and it isn't just tossed out like it's out of style. At least the manga keeps it around, if a little. It already had pretty much everything you could need in a transformation, and it's tossed aside. All the lessons blue tried to bring up and not develop, could have been lessons to keep God as a permanent form instead. Heck it looks kinda permanent in the manga for some reason. All that calming stuff they barely went into, as well as keeping ki within they also barely went into, all of that could have added more to Super Saiyan God, and we lose nothing valuable at all, but gain even more to a new intriguing form.

Every time I see comparisons to past mistakes or critical comparisons, then why make the same mistake again? If SSJ2 was lackluster, then why do it again? Grade forms are crap so why be as bare and uninteresting? Shouldn't we want to see improvements and fixes to previous mistakes? Why then just nod to something that's arguably par for the course?

[Marlowe89]

SSJ God is more distinct and original than SSJ Blue is. It's more unique, changes the build, SSJ3 eyes, new aura, interesting new way of obtaining it, sharper defined hair.

Gotta agree with this bit. I do quite like Blue's aesthetic, but personally I'd have to say God is overall much more distinct and visually appealing. It's kinda too bad that the transformation was only a one-time thing, at least as far as the anime appears to be concerned.

[dbzfan7]

SSJ God is more distinct and original than SSJ Blue is. It's more unique, changes the build, SSJ3 eyes, new aura, interesting new way of obtaining it, sharper defined hair.

Gotta agree with this bit. I do quite like Blue's aesthetic, but personally I'd have to say God is overall much more distinct and visually appealing. It's kinda too bad that the transformation was only a one-time thing, at least as far as the anime appears to be concerned.

Super Saiyan God did a fresh take on Goku's base state. That's what I wanted from SSJB at the very least. If they wanted to do something closer to SSJ, they coulda gone similar to Goku's SSJ2 route for the dew. It's not exactly drastically different mind you, but it's essentially a different take on his original SSJ form. That's why I don't crap on that form. I don't mind the blue colour at all. I just don't like how SSJB doesn't take the classic SSJ design, and do more with it. Expand. Change the bangs set up. Make the hair less spiky and more smooth to match the calmness it's supposed to portray. Something like that. But no...blue hair...admittedly cool aura...and undeveloped lore...exact look of SSJ.

At least this would be a good starting attempt. Regular Super Saiyan has a lot more spiky hair, so let blue be the calmer less wilder/spiky looking SSJ to add some semblance of difference. Yes it looks like the original look for SSJ, but since current SSJ has much spikier hair, you might as well let blue have smoother less spiky hair to distinguish it.
[spoiler][/spoiler]


SSJ God has so much more to offer, and it could have benefited from added lore that they tried to give SSJB. I conceded to Vegeta being the flaw in my argument, as he never benefited from forms to begin with. Every other character got different hairstyles while Vegeta always had the same look. Outside of SSJ3 in games, and SSJ4, he always looked like a recolour. Something I never was too fond of.

[LightBing]

But to address the points you mentioned:

I was just giving examples, not well thought of points. That's why I made a list and didn't expand on them. Cell Games was arbitrary, any arc past Namek would have served my point, which is that a huge part of the complaints about Super are of tendencies from Dragon Ball. So anyone blindly criticizing Super for doing the same as Dragon Ball, while praising Dragon Ball, suffers from cognitive dissonance.

Every time I see comparisons to past mistakes or critical comparisons, then why make the same mistake again? If SSJ2 was lackluster, then why do it again? Grade forms are crap so why be as bare and uninteresting? Shouldn't we want to see improvements and fixes to previous mistakes? Why then just nod to something that's arguably par for the course?

I like SSJB visually, the rest is an awful mistake just to force a new form in a new movie, falling in the same category as SSJ3, supremely unnecessary. It's like you said, again my main problem is when people reduce it to a rehearsed criticism devoid of any value.

Many of the problems appear to spawn from RoF, the movie is a typical Toei movie storyline, even if it's written by Mr.Toriyama. It's completely unnecessary to the story, even the manga skipped it without being worried about missing any points. A simple "they got Blue by the way" suffixed.

We should definitely criticize the repetition of mistakes, although remove RoF and there aren't that many. I feel like Super was rushed in such a way, that the idea to ignore RoF and re-write BoG to serve as launching pad into the new show wasn't even discussed. That's why we basically had copy-pasta arcs with some nostalgia jerking here and there, until the tournament.
They probably asked for Mr.Toriyama to write a new arc, didn't coordinate, forcing the inheritance of RoF problems. I bet if a sensible person asked him to change or remove RoF, we would all be much happier with Super. Unfortunately he didn't do it himself.

The ending of the power creep is by far the best thing about Super, it only benefits the story. Goku is still weaker than Beerus, that's spectacular!

[Kanassa]

Hell one of the most common criticism I keep seeing is "Dragon Ball/Z did this dumb ass thing, so Super can do this dumb ass thing." But why continue to promote stupid stuff Dragon Ball or Z did? It has it's share of problems that Super has improved on lately. The highs of Super are pretty friggin awesome, but the lows...dear god the lows are absolutely terrible.

Actually, the usual argument there is more saying "Yes, Super did something bad. But stop acting like Z didn't do the same thing"

[dbzfan7]

Every time I see comparisons to past mistakes or critical comparisons, then why make the same mistake again? If SSJ2 was lackluster, then why do it again? Grade forms are crap so why be as bare and uninteresting? Shouldn't we want to see improvements and fixes to previous mistakes? Why then just nod to something that's arguably par for the course?

I like SSJB visually, the rest is an awful mistake just to force a new form in a new movie, falling in the same category as SSJ3, supremely unnecessary. It's like you said, again my main problem is when people reduce it to a rehearsed criticism devoid of any value.

Many of the problems appear to spawn from RoF, the movie is a typical Toei movie storyline, even if it's written by Mr.Toriyama. It's completely unnecessary to the story, even the manga skipped it without being worried about missing any points. A simple "they got Blue by the way" suffixed.

We should definitely criticize the repetition of mistakes, although remove RoF and there aren't that many. I feel like Super was rushed in such a way, that the idea to ignore RoF and re-write BoG to serve as launching pad into the new show wasn't even discussed. That's why we basically had copy-pasta arcs with some nostalgia jerking here and there, until the tournament.
They probably asked for Mr.Toriyama to write a new arc, didn't coordinate, forcing the inheritance of RoF problems. I bet if a sensible person asked him to change or remove RoF, we would all be much happier with Super. Unfortunately he didn't do it himself.

The ending of the power creep is by far the best thing about Super, it only benefits the story. Goku is still weaker than Beerus, that's spectacular!

It's fine if you like SSJ Blue. On it's own ignoring everything else, it's fine by itself. It's everything surrounding it, as well as previous iterations that makes me hate the form and give it such labels as recolour. SSJ God kept it simple, but brought at least some more semblance of adding plenty of new different changes to Goku's look. SSJB did not bring nearly as much to the table. It has a cool but borrowed hair style. It has a nice colour. It has a cool aura. If I showed it to anyone else, I don't think it'd bother them as without previous context, it's a fine looking form. I can appreciate it's interesting egg shell like transformation, and that cool blue eye glow thing Vegeta did. It's just way too simple, and God was already simple enough as is. Unfortunately just like SSJ3, it fails to really have much of backstory or build up to it. I don't think it's really a criticism devoid of any value as it's based entirely on looks. Looks are pretty much the most subjective thing in the world.

I agree that ROF really didn't offer much at all. Coulda just had the U6 tournament be next and leave it at that. Would have made Super stronger overall. The manga made a smart move by just skipping it as it practically felt like a typical toei movie. Unnecessary indeed. I could even agree SSJ3 is unnecessary too. I like it more than SSJ2, but it also really didn't have much of an impact, and SSJ2 could have just been the big end all form.

I wouldn't say it ended the power creep. It's still there. But keeping Beerus on top is fantastic so long as they use him right.

Hell one of the most common criticism I keep seeing is "Dragon Ball/Z did this dumb ass thing, so Super can do this dumb ass thing." But why continue to promote stupid stuff Dragon Ball or Z did? It has it's share of problems that Super has improved on lately. The highs of Super are pretty friggin awesome, but the lows...dear god the lows are absolutely terrible.

Actually, the usual argument there is more saying "Yes, Super did something bad. But stop acting like Z didn't do the same thing"

That's pretty much the same thing. On the one hand it gets the bias off of Z, but on the other it tries to excuse Super because Z did it. Though as I've pointed out at least for me, there's plenty in Z I could say was pointless or unneeded. Though in Z, usually I have a reason why I might like something there more, or vice versa.