You think some fans are destroying the Dragonball Community??

[VegettoEX]

Again, I know that, but that's borderline making an excuse for how it is.

That's not acceptable to me.

(And quite frankly, the worst of what I've seen is still relegated to standard ol' website message boards, not social media.)

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

Why are strength debates so popular in Dragonball anyway? Dragonball characters are all so much beyond normal strength that it's hard to actually show the difference in their powers. Boo is way stronger than Saiyan Arc Vegeta and yet, visually, they look they same. They both seem to fly around at the same speed and punch about as hard, and their normal attacks still destroy medium boulders. How much better they are than the last super earth-destroying threat can only be expressed though characters being amazing at them ("I-I've never felt anything like this..!") or by abstract numbers. Furthermore, everyone has more or less the same arsenal of abilities (flying, punching, ki blast) Unlike series such as One Piece or Hunter x Hunter, you can't pit two characters' abilities together and think about if one would gain an advantage. You also can't factor in the environment, as everyone can just break through walls and fly over hazards. The only way you can even do hypothetical versus battles is through math. How is that so engaging and fun? If you really enjoy thinking about hypothetical battles, even Naruto and Bleach would offer more room for creativity.

[ABED]

I don't know if it would have been worse back then. I do think that the world seems to becoming more entitled and it's unhealthy and pervades into the way people interact with each other in person and online. Online it's even worse.

Again, I know that, but that's borderline making an excuse for how it is.

Pardon me, but I'm not following.

[VegettoEX]

Pardon me, but I'm not following.

Saying, "well, it would have been just as bad back then if they had the same social media tools!" comes across (to me) as excusing how bad it is now. Like, well yeah, of course it's terrible now! But oh well, we just have to deal with it 'cuz it is what it is!

No. We don't. It's awful and we shouldn't put up with that bullshit. People being terrible to each other should never be acceptable.

[ABED]

Fair point, and I agree. However, I don't think everyone who debates the minutia of things like power levels is what is wrong with the DB online community. People can debate plenty of minutia, including things like sports statistics, without resorting to name calling.

[VegettoEX]

However, I don't think everyone who debates the minutia of things like power levels is what is wrong with the DB online community. People can debate plenty of minutia, including things like sports statistics, without resorting to name calling.

I do agree with you there. My primary concern is how awful people are to each other.

That being said, my SECONDARY concern is exactly what just transpired: every conversation ultimately ends up being that pedantic discussion about the minutia. There's a time and place for it, and I'm worried that the "new norm" is... well, every conversation has to go there, because monkey dudes punching with math... and all of THOSE conversations devolve into people being awful.

[omaro34]

Pardon me, but I'm not following.

Saying, "well, it would have been just as bad back then if they had the same social media tools!" comes across (to me) as excusing how bad it is now. Like, well yeah, of course it's terrible now! But oh well, we just have to deal with it 'cuz it is what it is!

No. We don't. It's awful and we shouldn't put up with that bullshit. People being terrible to each other should never be acceptable.

I didn't intend to excuse how bad it is now, nor have I said we have to deal with it and get over it. People on Twitter or FB can be downright cruel and insulting, and all I was doing was shuddering at the thought that if DBZ was at the height of its popularity coupled with some people who go on social media to criticize & hate, we would be experiencing the same if not a worse portrayal of the fanbase.

I'm not condoning the actions of these people at all. Of course its bullshit and shouldn't be acceptable. All I was doing was trying to locate the root causes of the problem, which at this point could be a combination of many complex things.

[ABED]

That being said, my SECONDARY concern is exactly what just transpired: every conversation ultimately ends up being that pedantic discussion about the minutia.

Between myself and Cipher?

Online, when it's not moderated or policed, often devolves into insults. Remember that bit of advice about if you're upset at someone to write it all down, and then when you are done, put it in a drawer so no one sees it? It seems as though people on the net forget the second part and just write anything they want.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I don't mind flexibility with battle powers to an extent, but there are egregious errors in logic, such as when Piccolo can't take down someone whose power is boasted as being around the same as Zarbon and Dodoria's.

This absolutely baffled me for the longest time. I mean someone with a battle power of Zarbon or Dodoria should be a fly to Piccolo especially considering he has Nail and Kami fused with him. Don't tell me battling those weak Freeza soldiers had him tired either, that would be a terrible excuse. Hell, Piccolo when he first arrived on Namek without fusing with Nail yet was stronger than Zarbon or Dodoria. Its such an error in logic if indeed the translation was legit that people who are casual fans would know better, let alone writers.

To this day I think it could have been an error in translation, I refuse to believe it was anything to the contrary, out of respect for the writers.

Piccolo himself said "he had this" but Gohan still intervened. Also people do get tired you know, ask Freeza when Vegeta was beating the crap out him had he not exhausted his power vs Goku, Vegeta wouldn't have trounced him so easily. Also the Zarbon and Didoria line was stated, pre-4 months of training, no doubt some of them trained with him too.

[THEGOKU]

Having read through all these comments I think for the most part we can all agree the problem is not the debates within the community because each fanbase has that. It is how it is presented and the logic behind it being used as facts rather than opinions. I've been online since the release of B3 back on the Atari forums and always listened to Daizex and saw this site as the headquarters for the fanbase if you will. I haven't seen it really be this bad in terms of debates and heated discussions and it really does have to do with Super but the way the internet has turned out to be with people losing their filters they normally have on in public. Kai, BoG and RoF has brought in a bunch of new fans to the series and to them this is their version of what is great compared to what most of us older folks saw especially DragonBall. I feel like DragonBall which is the original start of everything always got the bad end of everything because of how different it is with the jokes and gags and everything that makes it unique. This new fanbase might not like it because they either haven't seen it or because it isn't like Kai, Super or any of the recent movies. My point is the new fans clash with the older fans and it isn't often but when it does happen it makes things worse within the community.

With that said Super does have a lot to do with this because it is doing things that seem harmless in the context of the show but is actually playing a huge factor in the lore of DB. I think fans just need to remember the same happened with GT and that both GT and Super is not something that Toriyama is dedicating all his time and effort into like he did before. Even DB Heroes has its own story going on and there are those that like it because it expands things and those that don't. These things aren't destroying the community it is just bringing in different groups within the overall community. Take Star Wars for example the original trilogy, the new trilogy and the newest one coming out from Disney along with the old lore that was canon that Disney scrapped to replace it with all the new stuff they wanted. Within the Star Wars community there are those who accept all this, those who hate it and those that understand it all but don't necessarily have to like it to understand it but aren't dicks about it either for lack of a better phrase. I think we are just coming to that point within out Fanbase that a lot is being added to the original tale and it is troubling to deal with in this new internet age. Hopefully that all makes sense.

[omaro34]

I think we are just coming to that point within out Fanbase that a lot is being added to the original tale and it is troubling to deal with in this new internet age. Hopefully that all makes sense.

And that's all I was saying. The new internet age is just one of the problems, but another could be just boiled down to individuals themselves. People put others down because their life sucks, and the internet is a perfect place because for the most part one if safeguarded.

Things will never improve from a collective standpoint until individuals take the initiative to improve themselves.

[omaro34]

I don't mind flexibility with battle powers to an extent, but there are egregious errors in logic, such as when Piccolo can't take down someone whose power is boasted as being around the same as Zarbon and Dodoria's.

This absolutely baffled me for the longest time. I mean someone with a battle power of Zarbon or Dodoria should be a fly to Piccolo especially considering he has Nail and Kami fused with him. Don't tell me battling those weak Freeza soldiers had him tired either, that would be a terrible excuse. Hell, Piccolo when he first arrived on Namek without fusing with Nail yet was stronger than Zarbon or Dodoria. Its such an error in logic if indeed the translation was legit that people who are casual fans would know better, let alone writers.

To this day I think it could have been an error in translation, I refuse to believe it was anything to the contrary, out of respect for the writers.

Piccolo himself said "he had this" but Gohan still intervened. Also people do get tired you know, ask Freeza when Vegeta was beating the crap out him had he not exhausted his power vs Goku, Vegeta wouldn't have trounced him so easily. Also the Zarbon and Didoria line was stated, pre-4 months of training, no doubt some of them trained with him too.

It must have been one hell of a 4 months of training to achieve that big of a power boost, but then again, in Dragonball I'm not surprised in the slightest.

[MCDaveG]

To be honest I can't say, I've pretty much paid no attention to the fandom in the last few years. I just have fun watching, reading, listening to and learning DB and posting here. To me this forum is "the fandom".

What I can say is that I've been online talking about DB since 09. 7 years, thats itching close to a decade and it was all the same back then. If it was going to " be destroyed " it would have happened already. Heck, ask the older members; they'll tell you it's been like this since the 90's.

Yeah, the world is same, it's just the technology and options that are progressing and widening and we do adapt. But these power level discussions and this sucks and etc. we had these even as a kids at school among ourselves. Only difference was, that we weren't anons sitting behind PC's and sometimes, you could even receive a punch in the face from your discussion oponent, haha. People don't change, it's just the world that is progressing around them.

Looking on my joined status under my avatar... Damn, I am an old timer!
Hey kids, do you want some wisdom?

[TheMikado]

The arguments being lobbed in hear that the community is being destroyed is so incredibly bizarre, especially because of what it seems to imply.

What I am hearing... and correct if I'm wrong in this...
Is that people are stating that the Dragonball Community as a whole was better in the past because the manner in which the discussions were conducted were different?

I'm really not following this... The movies and series have been added to an existing franchise which hasn't had new content in a decade, but those same "new" people are also destroying the community? This smacks of elitism.

I will use my automotive example: More people enjoy are enjoying cars in the 1950s because cars are more accessible to a wider variety of people. Further you now have different types of cars. Roadsters, Trucks, sedans, etc. Some people like certain types of cars and some don't. As an automotive enthusiasts you feel the influx of new and casual drivers is destroying the enjoyment of the cars you like due to their constant complaining amongst themselves. You as an auto enthusiast would prefer to enjoy the hobby you've enjoyed for years with other like minded individuals in a way you would prefer to enjoy.

Ironically, its these same new and causal drivers which generates a market for new automotive which in turn feeds your hobby.
If only these unappreciative consumers could continue to generate interest for the market to create these products, but also not complain and sully your personal enjoyment of the hobby, your world would be A-OK. No, these people are destroying the community as a whole by buying AND driving cars. Its a disgrace and disgusting. The world would be much better off without them.

Now take this scenario and apply it Dragonball fans.

1) The world is completely different from what it was at Dragonball's debut
2) The media and entertainment industry is different
3) The competition is different.
4) The fans are different and the interactions.
5) What should it look like now??? That's really my big question to everyone. What exactly should the fan base look like. What do you want them to do differently?
I think that last one is the number one question for me. What do you want fans to do exactly so that its not ruined?? Please be specific.

[VegettoEX]

That's not the case at all. I don't have a problem with the existence of new material (even when I don't like said material). I don't have a problem with the existence of conversations that address aspects that I take no interest in.

My problem is (1) when those conversations invariably overtake every other discussion (related or not; you're apparently not allowed to have a discussion about animation without being told why the power scaling in the fight was wrong!), and (2) when those discussions are nothing but disgusting vitriol spewed between "fans".

I'm open to new ideas and new analysis and new people giving me those new ideas and new analysis; I've learned so many things from so many new people, and I continue to do so through today. I'm not open to being told to fuck myself off a cliff because Triangle is a higher number than Orange.

[ABED]

Please, everyone knows triangle is not higher than orange. Blue, however...

[MetaMoss]

I feel like I should probably listen to the podcast episode to get the full context, but this is definitely the most frustrated I've seen you, Mike. I'm really sad to hear that you're having a real rough time of this, and I see where you're coming from. Poor experiences with the League of Legends community made me quit playing back in 2011, before I even really got started, so your fear of having a similar situation with Dragon Ball is certainly not unwarranted. You do have an opportunity to make an effective stand against this, I believe, as you just so happen to run a decently high-profile DB site and forum.

My problem is (1) when those conversations invariably overtake every other discussion (related or not; you're apparently not allowed to have a discussion about animation without being told why the power scaling in the fight was wrong!)

In this case, you may want to consider emphasizing the "on-topic" rule more in the forum. I, too, have seen many a topic spiral into futile discussion that revolve around points that are either unrelated or minor. One of my favorite things about this forum is its focus, how it is dedicated solely to Dragon Ball discussion. Perhaps this focus can be applied more on a thread-to-thread basis?

(2) when those discussions are nothing but disgusting vitriol spewed between "fans".

Another one of my favorite things of the forum is how much you guys strive to create an environment of mutual respect, where every discussion participant can feel like proper equals and peers. Naturally, not all of the members on on-board with this concept, but I think it's been pulled off well enough to the point that I consider this is the best forum I've ever been to. Keep on dealing with disrespectful behavior like that, and I think you can continue cultivating a great community here. It may not change the state of other parts of fandom directly, but making Kanzenshuu into a shining beacon of good Dragon Ball fandom may inspire others to act less shitty.

Please, everyone knows triangle is not higher than orange. Blue, however...

Every single godKami-damn time this discussion comes up, everyone is always singing the praises of blue. All y'all are acting like dodecahedron doesn't even exist. I get it, you're just scared of the sheer magnitude of dodecahedron, that you can't even properly comprehend it. The elephant is in the room, though. Dodecahedron is not just so many levels higher than triangle, orange, and blue, but also lavender.

[TheMikado]

That's not the case at all. I don't have a problem with the existence of new material (even when I don't like said material). I don't have a problem with the existence of conversations that address aspects that I take no interest in.

My problem is (1) when those conversations invariably overtake every other discussion (related or not; you're apparently not allowed to have a discussion about animation without being told why the power scaling in the fight was wrong!), and (2) when those discussions are nothing but disgusting vitriol spewed between "fans".

I'm open to new ideas and new analysis and new people giving me those new ideas and new analysis; I've learned so many things from so many new people, and I continue to do so through today. I'm not open to being told to fuck myself off a cliff because Triangle is a higher number than Orange.

This makes sense in context, however I will head back to my automotive example. Right now the main things to talk about are hybrid and MPG ratings, even on cars which are not designed to maximize MPG. I see it all the time.

"Wow did you see that new custom Charger kit and engine?"
"Yeah but I bet it gets like 3 miles to the Gallon.."

I certainly understand the frustration but it's not unique to this community or any other. In my example the MPG wasn't the topic of discussion but it part of the entire identity of the car and do make or break it for some people. Right or wrong. All that said, it's going to taper off quite a bit once things normalize and there's nothing new left to discuss. Even the Power level thread has slowed down as the amount to actually have a conversation about has dwindled.

[VegettoEX]

To be further clear, I'm mostly not even talking about the Kanzenshuu community, and I'm not exactly on fandom suicide watch.

[Cipher]

In light of the last page, I'm a bit torn. I agree with Mike that conversations rerouting to the minutiae of in-universe strength in a non-strength debate thread -- I immediately thought of a line to that extent during the latest podcast as soon when this thread started mimicking it -- is mostly a new and frustrating phenomenon. (And, come on. Resurrection F is a fun movie!)

On the other hand, I wonder if people are blind to the fact that the same thing has been happening in GT conversations, even on Kanzenshuu, for as long as it's existed. The capacity to be that pedantic has always existed within the best parts of the fandom. It's loose approach to power levels has always been presented as a legitimate reason to take issue with the series, and it's impossible to predict where and when that will be brought up.

So I suppose I remain slightly less alarmed about it as far as a long-term disruption to the community, and have to believe it will fade into more of a background element the way similarly out-of-place conversations have for GT. Unfortunately, this kind of attitude and misplaced focus may never leave Super conversations fully. (And of all the reasons to present for liking or disliking GT or Super, approach to strength shouldn't even rank.)