dbzfan7 wrote:
The point is Trunks has a Zamasu either way. So he's not going to disappear or prematurely end the threat, as Zamasu exists in the parallel world.
Again, the time travel mechanics are completely different here, If they traveled from the future of the regular timeline to the current time and killed Zamasu, that wouldn't change the future because they just created a split timeline, but traveling to the future with the time ring does not create a new timeline, as such it would make sense that killing Zamasu before he even has a chance to time travel would stop his meddling in Trunks's future from ever happening because we aren't dealing with a new timeline being created. Zamasu would no longer exist in the future because he was never able to travel there in the first place, time would just fix itself, similar to how it sucked Black back to the future timeline.
The only reason Trunks going back during the android saga didn't fix his future was because his time traveling caused a split timeline, we are not dealing with extra splits in this arc.
dbzfan7 wrote:
But that doesn't at all seem to be the implication. They're on completely 2 different levels in the future and past. It's also extremely counter productive that he suddenly goes "Hm...you know this other universe bothers me, so let's forget about my own universe."
How can you say that when we don't know why he would go to a different timeline? Seriously, you are looking at one part of the story and trying to conclude that this doesn't make sense without the full story.
If the Zamasu in the future timeline is from this timeline then just wait for the explanation as to why he went there.
The implication so far has been that Goku helped send Zamasu over the edge, which leads to the events in Trunks's future, we just don't know why he went there yet(if that is what is happening).
Exactly why it's pretty difficult to conclude it makes sense when we don't even have the full story. That's not even going into how again Zamasu exists in Trunks time so he's not suddenly just going to go away. He was going bad no matter what is the implication. It's just in Goku's timeline he speed up the process. Zamasu in Trunks world doesn't just go away as he still exists. Then as shown in the next episode he's still alive in the future anyways, so killing him in the past literally did nothing at all.
And again. He magically gets stronger...for no reason...in a world where he's already the uncontested strongest in Trunks timeline...where Gowasu is dead and no one could follow him. He has absolutely no incentive to be such a beast when he's already uncontested.
So yeah it makes no sense...YET! I ain't closing the book on it yet. I'm waiting to see what comes up.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Sodhi wrote:Do you guys see a reason why the bond between kaishin and hakaishin would have been brought up?. Any theories?
To explain why Beerus isn't doing anything in the future, it's pretty obvious.
I know that the manga explained that, and I thought thats pretty much the case too. However I was just wondering if it meant anything for the future plot or is it just that.
dbzfan7 wrote:
Exactly why it's pretty difficult to conclude it makes sense when we don't even have the full story. That's not even going into how again Zamasu exists in Trunks time so he's not suddenly just going to go away. He was going bad no matter what is the implication. It's just in Goku's timeline he speed up the process. Zamasu in Trunks world doesn't just go away as he still exists. Then as shown in the next episode he's still alive in the future anyways, so killing him in the past literally did nothing at all.
If it is the same Zamasu (only even separated by an undetermined amount of time) then killing him in the past would probably change Trunks's future because there aren't any extra timeline splits from this. You have to remember we are just going off of what the characters think as well, Beerus probably tells Trunks that he killed Zamasu so everything should be fine(whether he thinks he killed Zamasu before he could time travel or if he thinks Zamasu is jumping back and forth, who knows, but the implication would be that he thinks this Zamasu won't be in the future timeline anymore), Trunks isn't sure about that, cue reveal that Beerus didn't actually kill Zamasu because he's already immortal and everything continues as it did.
dbzfan7 wrote:
Exactly why it's pretty difficult to conclude it makes sense when we don't even have the full story. That's not even going into how again Zamasu exists in Trunks time so he's not suddenly just going to go away. He was going bad no matter what is the implication. It's just in Goku's timeline he speed up the process. Zamasu in Trunks world doesn't just go away as he still exists. Then as shown in the next episode he's still alive in the future anyways, so killing him in the past literally did nothing at all.
If it is the same Zamasu (only even separated by an undetermined amount of time) then killing him in the past would probably change Trunks's future because there aren't any extra timeline splits from this. You have to remember we are just going off of what the characters think as well, Beerus probably tells Trunks that he killed Zamasu so everything should be fine(whether he thinks he killed Zamasu before he could time travel or if he thinks Zamasu is jumping back and forth, who knows, but the implication would be that he thinks this Zamasu won't be in the future timeline anymore), Trunks isn't sure about that, cue reveal that Beerus didn't actually kill Zamasu because he's already immortal and everything continues as it did.
But it won't. He's in an entirely different universe and time line. In a timeline separate from the one Goku is in. A present time line of a different universe can not correct a different time line unless they flow in the same spectrum. They won't be creating a different universe is right, but as we've been shown they won't be correcting other timelines either, as the timelines don't connect to one another. So there can't be any ripple effect. That's not even going into how that would cause a major paradox, and Trunks wouldn't have had to warn them at all about Black. So literally they shoot themselves in the foot because of Time Travel Paradox. Hence why the whole alternate timeline universe idea was created. To avoid time travel paradox.
Which again means Zamasu for no reason gets a shit load stronger, and has ties to a powerful being, in a world where he's already far uncontested just how he is, as Beerus is already dead and no one else can touch him. So he just gets stronger...even though he already is the strongest in a universe without competition.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
A friend of mine like myself is still boggled about how Beerus destroys Zamas if he wished for immortality. However, my friend now thinks that perhaps the scenes we see in the episode 58 preview of Zamasu using the super dragon balls is just him imagining himself with them. To be honest, I can see that being the case as well.
Sodhi wrote:It could simply be a misleading summary. Things like that have happened in the past.
True. At the end of the day, all we're working with is segmented summaries. The context isn't felt. There's still potential for hidden twists and riveting explanations. It's been brought up multiple times that Beerus killing Zamasu was an intentional reveal. The promoters should know what they're doing.
DainIronfoot wrote:A friend of mine like myself is still boggled about how Beerus destroys Zamas if he wished for immortality. However, my friend now thinks that perhaps the scenes we see in the episode 58 preview of Zamasu using the super dragon balls is just him imagining himself with them. To be honest, I can see that being the case as well.
Well perhaps that all knowing guy knows where all the balls are since he knows everything apparently. But a vision of it could be true too.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:
But it won't. He's in an entirely different universe and time line. In a timeline separate from the one Goku is in. A present time line of a different universe can not correct a different time line unless they flow in the same spectrum. They won't be creating a different universe is right, but as we've been shown they won't be correcting other timelines either, as the timelines don't connect to one another. So there can't be any ripple effect. That's not even going into how that would cause a major paradox, and Trunks wouldn't have had to warn them at all about Black. So literally they shoot themselves in the foot because of Time Travel Paradox. Hence why the whole alternate timeline universe idea was created. To avoid time travel paradox.
Which again means Zamasu for no reason gets a shit load stronger, and has ties to a powerful being, in a world where he's already far uncontested just how he is, as Beerus is already dead and no one else can touch him. So he just gets stronger...even though he already is the strongest in a universe without competition.
What made you come to this conclusion? We already have an example of time trying to fix itself by sucking Black back to the future, but we don't have anything saying that killing someone before the do something without creating a different timeline wouldn't cause time to try and fix itself. And honestly I think this whole arc is based on a paradox, with Trunks traveling back in time to get help fighting Black being the reason Black exists in the first place.
Either way does it really matter? Beerus thinks he kills Zamasu and thinks he fixed the problem, while Trunks doesn't think that's true and Zamasu likely isn't killed anyways and things continue as they had.
DainIronfoot wrote:A friend of mine like myself is still boggled about how Beerus destroys Zamas if he wished for immortality. However, my friend now thinks that perhaps the scenes we see in the episode 58 preview of Zamasu using the super dragon balls is just him imagining himself with them. To be honest, I can see that being the case as well.
Or Zamasu is immortal and Beerus doesn't know, Beerus thinks he kills Zamasu and leaves but Zamasu is still alive.
DainIronfoot wrote:A friend of mine like myself is still boggled about how Beerus destroys Zamas if he wished for immortality. However, my friend now thinks that perhaps the scenes we see in the episode 58 preview of Zamasu using the super dragon balls is just him imagining himself with them. To be honest, I can see that being the case as well.
That could be the case, yes. It seems very rushed if they make Zamas find all super dragon balls in one episode, at least Zuno tells him where to find them, or they make the same thing they did in RoF arc, when Sorbet found that Pilaf gang already had six. Zamas could find someone gathering all the db.
dbzfan7 wrote:
But it won't. He's in an entirely different universe and time line. In a timeline separate from the one Goku is in. A present time line of a different universe can not correct a different time line unless they flow in the same spectrum. They won't be creating a different universe is right, but as we've been shown they won't be correcting other timelines either, as the timelines don't connect to one another. So there can't be any ripple effect. That's not even going into how that would cause a major paradox, and Trunks wouldn't have had to warn them at all about Black. So literally they shoot themselves in the foot because of Time Travel Paradox. Hence why the whole alternate timeline universe idea was created. To avoid time travel paradox.
Which again means Zamasu for no reason gets a shit load stronger, and has ties to a powerful being, in a world where he's already far uncontested just how he is, as Beerus is already dead and no one else can touch him. So he just gets stronger...even though he already is the strongest in a universe without competition.
What made you come to this conclusion? We already have an example of time trying to fix itself by sucking Black back to the future, but we don't have anything saying that killing someone before the do something without creating a different timeline wouldn't cause time to try and fix itself. And honestly I think this whole arc is based on a paradox, with Trunks traveling back in time to get help fighting Black being the reason Black exists in the first place.
Either way does it really matter? Beerus thinks he kills Zamasu and thinks he fixed the problem, while Trunks doesn't think that's true and Zamasu likely isn't killed anyways and things continue as they had.
He was sucked back into the future because he ran out of time Whis said I believe. Which again, even IF you follow your logic, you create a paradox where it can't correct the future, as then Trunks by paradox law, never attempts to warn about Black, and thus Black happens, and we go into thusly the paradox. Which is why killing him in the past does nothing. Because killing him in the past would alter the entire present landscape as well. They never kill Zamasu, and it all happens again. Hence the point of how it makes no sense. You accomplish nothing by killing present Zamasu. Which is again, why the whole alternate timeline thing was created. To avoid paradoxes that make it impossible to do anything by paradox law. They kill Zamasu, and then they never would have killed Zamasu as nothing in the future happened. Which means Trunks never warned them of anything. Which means they never would have had the need to kill Zamasu, and we're right back where we started.
Which again, does not explain the need to have such power when he's already completely uncontested against Trunks. He has no reason to ally with Black or get more powerful as he already can handle literally anything in Trunks world. LIkely the reason to go to Trunks timeline is being uncontested. No Beerus or Kaioshins to do anything about him since they're dead.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
I think Beerus destroying Zamasu isn't an inconsistency. It just creates another timeline. It's similar to the Cell ordeal. Originally, Cell kills Trunks and travels to the past. Then, after fighting and getting stronger, Trunks goes back to his timeline and finds Cell, who wants to kill him. Trunks kills Cell instead, but that doesn't remove the Cell arc from the history of the main timeline.
If Beerus indeed kills Zamasu, then the Future Zamasu comes from a similar past timeline where Beerus never kills him, or something like that.
"The life is the hardest video games of ever. Because you have only one life and the powers are kinda lame. And sometimes a stage takes years"
"The life is a game, the objective of the game is trying to find the objective of the game, and then, finish the game"
--by Ranely Jr
dbzfan7 wrote:
Which again, does not explain the need to have such power when he's already completely uncontested against Trunks. He has no reason to ally with Black or get more powerful as he already can handle literally anything in Trunks world. LIkely the reason to go to Trunks timeline is being uncontested. No Beerus or Kaioshins to do anything about him since they're dead.
As Gowasu says, Kaioshin do not destroy, they create, so maybe Zamasu created Black to destroy the humans for him, but he wants Goku for himself. He got stronger so he could beat Goku.
dbzfan7 wrote:
Which again, does not explain the need to have such power when he's already completely uncontested against Trunks. He has no reason to ally with Black or get more powerful as he already can handle literally anything in Trunks world. LIkely the reason to go to Trunks timeline is being uncontested. No Beerus or Kaioshins to do anything about him since they're dead.
As Gowasu says, Kaioshin do not destroy, they create, so maybe Zamasu created Black to destroy the humans for him, but he wants Goku for himself. He got stronger so he could beat Goku.
Goku is dead in this timeline and he has no competition. Beerus is dead and no one will stop him. Also he already killed something without giving two shits. I highly doubt he has any care about killing. Zamasu also ISN'T a Kaioshin. He's a Kaioshin in training. He never became a full Kaioshin. He has absolutely no reason to power up at all with nothing in his way.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Doctor. wrote:You guys should just chill and wait for the episodes to see what theories are correct before debating this.
Idk, I'm really enjoying the discussion and trying to work it out.
It's either gonna be something brilliant or a plot hole, there's no middle-ground really.
100% agree but like any good mystery part of the fun is guessing. This is why it's so difficult to do a good mystery. You need enough exposition to keep you guessing, still be a plausible solution, and not have you figure out the ending.
Bad mysteries tend to either pull things out of nowhere or give away the plot.
dbzfan7 wrote:
Which again, does not explain the need to have such power when he's already completely uncontested against Trunks. He has no reason to ally with Black or get more powerful as he already can handle literally anything in Trunks world. LIkely the reason to go to Trunks timeline is being uncontested. No Beerus or Kaioshins to do anything about him since they're dead.
As Gowasu says, Kaioshin do not destroy, they create, so maybe Zamasu created Black to destroy the humans for him, but he wants Goku for himself. He got stronger so he could beat Goku.
Goku is dead in this timeline and he has no competition. Beerus is dead and no one will stop him. Also he already killed something without giving two shits. I highly doubt he has any care about killing. Zamasu also ISN'T a Kaioshin. He's a Kaioshin in training. He never became a full Kaioshin. He has absolutely no reason to power up at all with nothing in his way.
Future Zamasu from Trunks time line shouldn't even know Goku exists.
ArchedThunder wrote:
As Gowasu says, Kaioshin do not destroy, they create, so maybe Zamasu created Black to destroy the humans for him, but he wants Goku for himself. He got stronger so he could beat Goku.
Goku is dead in this timeline and he has no competition. Beerus is dead and no one will stop him. Also he already killed something without giving two shits. I highly doubt he has any care about killing. Zamasu also ISN'T a Kaioshin. He's a Kaioshin in training. He never became a full Kaioshin. He has absolutely no reason to power up at all with nothing in his way.
Future Zamasu from Trunks time line shouldn't even know Goku exists.
We're discussing based on the theory that they're the same Zamasu. There will always be a Zamasu in Trunks timline. There could be two Zamasu in Trunks timeline. One who came from the past, and one who already existed.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
