Theories On the Origin of Black

[HeroR]

My bet: Black is Mirai Zamas in Mirai Goku's dead body. The other Zamas is a future Zamas of the main timeline.

Why would Future Zamasu want Goku? How would they have even met? Also, why are the splitting earrings, since of them should have a complete set and why does Black need a Time Ring if he isn't a time traveler?

[Chiki]

I'm also starting to think that Mirai Zamasu (the original one of Trunks's time) is Black. It explains why they have the same ki and similar fighting style and similar personalities.

There are some unanswered questions, like how he was convinced to become Goku, and how he turned to Goku in the first place. But it's by far the strongest theory.

[Khin]

I'm also starting to think that Mirai Zamasu (the original one of Trunks's time) is Black. It explains why they have the same ki and similar fighting style and similar personalities.

There are some unanswered questions, like how he was convinced to become Goku, and how he turned to Goku in the first place. But it's by far the strongest theory.

Perhaps Present Zamasu told him everything about Goku ? But instead of hating him, he became interested in him that he uses the Super Dragon Ball to wish a lifeless Goku body (With all of Goku's memories) and then possess the said body. But since this is in the future, the said body doesn't know Trunks or about the Time Machine since Goku died before he met Trunks or knew about the Time Machine.

I still can't figure out how Zamasu will survive Beerus' wrath, but the events goes like this:

-> Trunks escapes, tells everyone about Black.
-> Whis and co. investigates and goes to U10
-> Zamasu fights Goku.
-> More Zamasu hates Goku and mortals whatnot.
-> Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks goes to the future to fight Black but loses then returns to the present again.
-> Zamasu asks Zuno everything about Goku and the Super Dragon Balls.
-> ??Some unknown stuff??
-> Whis and co. arrives in U10. Watches Zamasu poison Gowasu.
-> Zamasu steals Gowasu's potara.
-> Beerus ''destroys'' Zamasu and leaves.
-> Zamasu for some reason survives, gets a green Time-Ring and goes to Trunks' timeline.
-> Present Zamasu meets his future counterpart, tells him everything about Goku and stuff.
-> Future Zamasu become interested in Goku.
-> Present Zamasu gathers the SDB and wishes for immortality.
-> Since Future Gowasu got completely vaporized by Present Zamasu, he gave him one of his earrings to make the F. Zamasu a Kaioshin.
-> F. Zamasu steals the Silver Time-Ring and uses the SDB to wish a lifeless Goku body, then possess the said body.
-> F. Zamasu (Now Black) and P. Zamasu starts their rampage.
-> Back to the first one.

In episode 56, Black doesn't look remotely surprised when he saw Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (Trunks assumed that he probably already saw it before), but after that Black said something like ''So that's what a warrior race clad with divine ki looks like'', implying that it was the first time he saw the form so Trunks assumption that Black already saw SSB before is false and Present Zamasu can't be Black (Since he saw SSB Goku in GodTube). This leaves to my theory that P. Zamasu told F. Zamasu (Black) everything he knows about Goku (Including SSB), which is why Black doesn't look surprised when he saw SSB Vegeta.

If there is something that contradicts my theory, please tell me.

[HeroR]

I'm also starting to think that Mirai Zamasu (the original one of Trunks's time) is Black. It explains why they have the same ki and similar fighting style and similar personalities.

There are some unanswered questions, like how he was convinced to become Goku, and how he turned to Goku in the first place. But it's by far the strongest theory.

Perhaps Present Zamasu told him everything about Goku ? But instead of hating him, he became interested in him that he uses the Super Dragon Ball to wish a lifeless Goku body (With all of Goku's memories) and then possess the said body. But since this is in the future, the said body doesn't know Trunks or about the Time Machine since Goku died before he met Trunks or knew about the Time Machine.

I still can't figure out how Zamasu will survive Beerus' wrath, but the events goes like this:

-> Trunks escapes, tells everyone about Black.
-> Whis and co. investigates and goes to U10
-> Zamasu fights Goku.
-> More Zamasu hates Goku and mortals whatnot.
-> Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks goes to the future to fight Black but loses then returns to the present again.
-> Zamasu asks Zuno everything about Goku and the Super Dragon Balls.
-> ??Some unknown stuff??
-> Whis and co. arrives in U10. Watches Zamasu poison Gowasu.
-> Zamasu steals Gowasu's potara.
-> Beerus ''destroys'' Zamasu and leaves.
-> Zamasu for some reason survives, gets a green Time-Ring and goes to Trunks' timeline.
-> Present Zamasu meets his future counterpart, tells him everything about Goku and stuff.
-> Future Zamasu become interested in Goku.
-> Present Zamasu gathers the SDB and wishes for immortality.
-> Since Future Gowasu got completely vaporized by Present Zamasu, he gave him one of his earrings to make the F. Zamasu a Kaioshin.
-> F. Zamasu steals the Silver Time-Ring and uses the SDB to wish a lifeless Goku body, then possess the said body.
-> F. Zamasu (Now Black) and P. Zamasu starts their rampage.
-> Back to the first one.

In episode 56, Black doesn't look remotely surprised when he saw Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (Trunks assumed that he probably already saw it before), but after that Black said something like ''So that's what a warrior race clad with divine ki looks like'', implying that it was the first time he saw the form so Trunks assumption that Black already saw SSB before is false and Present Zamasu can't be Black (Since he saw SSB Goku in GodTube). This leaves to my theory that P. Zamasu told F. Zamasu (Black) everything he knows about Goku (Including SSB), which is why Black doesn't look surprised when he saw SSB Vegeta.

If there is something that contradicts my theory, please tell me.

Why would Zamasu vaporized Gawasu to the point that he destroys his earrings? From a common sense stand point that makes little sense. And Black also said that he inspired his entire life to be like Goku, which makes little sense if Black is Zamasu. And the body doesn't carry the memories of the user, otherwise Ginyu would have known about the Kaio-Ken. Knowing what Goku's techniques are isn't the same as actually using them.

But probably the biggest thing, why would Black used Goku's Instant Transmission if he's Zamasu. It has been shown that the Supreme Kai of U7 knows the advance teleportation technique and it can even teleport between universes. Zamasu seems to know it too since he's able to move between U10 and U7 in the span of a day and it was never hinted that he's as fast as Whis. So why used an inferior teleportation technique?

And that doesn't explain how Black knows Vegeta, yet not Trunks when they first met. If present Zamasu was the one to tell Future Zamasu everything about Goku, he should know about Trunks and the time machine since those are the reasons why Goku isn't dead in present Zamasu's timeline.

Also, why would Future Zamasu take Goku's name?

[Khin]

- Why would Zamasu vaporized Gawasu to the point that he destroys his earrings? From a common sense stand point that makes little sense.
- And Black also said that he inspired his entire life to be like Goku, which makes little sense if Black is Zamasu.
- And the body doesn't carry the memories of the user, otherwise Ginyu would have known about the Kaio-Ken. Knowing what Goku's techniques are isn't the same as actually using them.
- But probably the biggest thing, why would Black used Goku's Instant Transmission if he's Zamasu. It has been shown that the Supreme Kai of U7 knows the advance teleportation technique and it can even teleport between universes. Zamasu seems to know it too since he's able to move between U10 and U7 in the span of a day and it was never hinted that he's as fast as Whis. So why used an inferior teleportation technique?
- And that doesn't explain how Black knows Vegeta, yet not Trunks when they first met. If present Zamasu was the one to told Future Zamasu everything about Goku, he should know about Trunks and the time machine since those are the reasons why Goku isn't dead in present Zamasu's timeline.
- Also, why would Future Zamasu take Goku's name?

- Any reason why ? There's no harm in Zamasu vaporizing Gowasu, since he could just easily give his other earring to the other Zamasu.

- When did Black said this ?

- Didn't you read what i said ? Zamasu wishes for a body similar to Goku with all of Goku's memories. Meaning he has capabilities of doing some of Goku's techniques like Kamehame-ha, but needed to fight Goku in order for him to utilize all of Goku's fighting styles/techniques.

- Black only used Shunkan Ido once, and that's in episode 57. Which can be easily be interpreted as Black wanting Goku to know that he's capable of doing the Shunkan Ido too.

- Again, you didn't seem to read what i said. Black recognizes Vegeta since he has Future Goku's memories, and F. Goku died before he met Trunks, so he didn't know him when they first met. I'm not sure if you're referring to ep 51 as Trunks and Black's first encounter but at that flashback, Black said ''The Saiyan ?'' which doesn't necessarily mean that Black doesn't know Trunks, since he was shown to call Trunks a Saiyan multiple times (Episode 47 and 48).

- Again, Zamasu become so much interested in Goku, that he takes a body similar to him and even takes him name. It could also be a way to hide his true identity.

[HeroR]

- Why would Zamasu vaporized Gawasu to the point that he destroys his earrings? From a common sense stand point that makes little sense.
- And Black also said that he inspired his entire life to be like Goku, which makes little sense if Black is Zamasu.
- And the body doesn't carry the memories of the user, otherwise Ginyu would have known about the Kaio-Ken. Knowing what Goku's techniques are isn't the same as actually using them.
- But probably the biggest thing, why would Black used Goku's Instant Transmission if he's Zamasu. It has been shown that the Supreme Kai of U7 knows the advance teleportation technique and it can even teleport between universes. Zamasu seems to know it too since he's able to move between U10 and U7 in the span of a day and it was never hinted that he's as fast as Whis. So why used an inferior teleportation technique?
- And that doesn't explain how Black knows Vegeta, yet not Trunks when they first met. If present Zamasu was the one to told Future Zamasu everything about Goku, he should know about Trunks and the time machine since those are the reasons why Goku isn't dead in present Zamasu's timeline.
- Also, why would Future Zamasu take Goku's name?

- Any reason why ? There's no harm in Zamasu vaporizing Gowasu, since he could just easily give his other earring to the other Zamasu.

- When did Black said this ?

- Didn't you read what i said ? Zamasu wishes for a body similar to Goku with all of Goku's memories. Meaning he has capabilities of doing some of Goku's techniques like Kamehame-ha, but needed to fight Goku in order for him to utilize all of Goku's fighting styles/techniques.

- Black only used Shunkan Ido once, and that's in episode 57. Which can be easily be interpreted as Black wanting Goku to know that he's capable of doing the Shunkan Ido too.

- Again, you didn't seem to read what i said. Black recognizes Vegeta since he has Future Goku's memories, and F. Goku died before he met Trunks, so he didn't know him when they first met. I'm not sure if you're referring to ep 51 as Trunks and Black's first encounter but at that flashback, Black said ''The Saiyan ?'' which doesn't necessarily mean that Black doesn't know Trunks, since he was shown to call Trunks a Saiyan multiple times (Episode 47 and 48).

- Again, Zamasu become so much interested in Goku, that he takes a body similar to him and even takes him name. It could also be a way to hide his true identity.

- Given that Future Zamasu should be older and wiser than his past counterpart, he would make sure the earrings weren't damaged. Also, Zamasu even the present knew about fusion. Zamaus' fighting style also seems to lean towards cutting his opponents into pieces over vaporizing them. Zamasu just doesn't strike me as shortsighted enough to destroy a pair of perfectly good earrings.

- Even he had only had Future Goku's memories, Future Zamasu should still know about Trunks and time travel since that was the only way present Zamasu met Goku, since he should have been dead, I think Zuno would mention that.

- Actually, Black tries to teleport back in Episode 48 or 49 when he was looking for Trunks. He had Goku's classic two fingers on his forehead pose. And if we used the Super manga, Black teleported using Instant Transmission during their fight.

- Read what I wrote. If he got most of his information from present Zamasu who talked to Zuno, he had to have known about Trunks and time travel, since that is the only reason why that version of Goku isn't dead.

- Why would he be that interested in Goku to the point of taking his name? Where is the logic in that? And why bother to hide his true identity. No one in U7 should know who he is, and we have another Zamasu running around who doesn't seem to care about people knowing he's there. Plus, why would Future Zamasu say, 'I aspired my entire life' when regarding to being like Goku. He said those words in Episode 56 not long after he achieved Super Saiyan Rose and was talking about how beautiful he was. Black also said to Trunks, 'I want to eliminate all mortal on behalf of the gods'. Which is a strange statement if he's already a god. It makes it sounds like he's a servant of the gods or doing them a favor. Shouldn't he say something like, 'I will destroy humanity in the god's name'.

Finally, how does he get stronger from pain? Neither Zamasu or Goku have that ability.

[Khin]

snip

That's if Present Zamasu recruited his future counterpart first, if he met Gowasu first and he tries to stop him, he would kill him, but Gowasu would be in an afterlife body after that (Like Elder Kaioshin in the Boo Arc) and the only way to kill him again is by completely vaporizing him, and considering Zamasu already has a pair of Potara, I doubt he would care about Gowasu's earrings getting destroyed. Also, considering it was shown that Zuno actually doesn't tell everything even though he was asked everything about something, like in the latest episode when Zamasu asked him everything about the Super Dragon Balls or when Bulma also asked him everything about the Super Dragon Balls in episode 31, Zuno didn't tell their locations (Until Zamasu pointed it out), their other histories like when was the last time they were used ? So it is possible that Zuno didn't tell every single thing about Goku, especially the trivial stuff. Zamasu is also an impatient person as we saw in the latest episode so Zuno probably only told him the important stuff about our Goku. Same for Zamasu, he probably only told him all the important stuff about Future Zamasu.

I re-watched some bits in the second half of episode 56 and nowhere was it stated anywhere that Black aspired his life to be like Goku. You do make a good point about the Shunkan Ido/Kai-Kai and eliminating humans in behalf of the gods thing.

While watching episode 47 again, I noticed an important stuff about Black that should be considered for the theories about his origin that people seems to completely forgot. In the Black has just learned how to sense Ki, so chances of him being Zamasu (Whether Future or Present) is pretty low, even if you assume he was just not used to his new body at that time, it's very unlikely that it would took him more than a year to learn how to sense Ki considering he is supposed to be a fighting prodigy.

Black can't also be Gowasu since Black said in episode 56 (After seeing Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta) ''so this is what a warrior race clad with divine Ki looks like'', implying it was the first time he saw the form. Gowasu watched the tournament and clearly seen SSB Goku, Present Zamasu seen it too and even commented about. Future Zamasu can't be Black for the reason i already said. Whis' theory also doesn't work since there are many stuff that contradicts it, most notably are:

• Black and Zamasu have a similar ki. Whis himself admitted that Black being a copy of Goku doesn't explain this.
• If Goku Black is a complete copy of our Goku, then that explains why he knows Vegeta, however Black should also know about the Time Machine (Since Goku obviously know it), yet Black didn't know that until he heard Trunks mentioning it in episode 50.
• Black is incapable of sensing Ki before episode 47, which obviously wouldn't be the case if Black is a copy of Goku.
• A copy of Goku shouldn't be different than Copy-Vegeta in the Copy Arc, who was pretty much the same as the original, knows, can utilize, have memories of the original Vegeta. It was implied that Black needed to fight Goku in order for him to utilize Goku's moves. Black also implied multiple times that it is not his original body and he's just using it, he said "this body" multiple times as if he somehow acquired or controlled it, which wouldn't be the case if Black is just a copy of Goku wished by the Super Dragon Balls.

So if Black is not Present Zamasu, Future Zamasu, Gowasu, or a copy of our Goku, then he is probably a guy who hates the humans as much as Zamasu, they probably met accidentally(?) and Zamasu helped him become Black since like Whis said in the latest episode, Zamasu wants power to assert his ''justice'' and finding a guy who hates the mortals just as much as him is just perfect.

I guess the reason why Present Zamasu went to the future is because he wants to recruit his future counterpart or he will escape Beerus' wrath through a green time-ring. Either way, Future Zamasu probably has no longer hatred for the mortals and Present Zamasu will kill him. The ''Black is Future Goku's body with his memory'' theory still applies, except this time it's the guy who has the same goal as Zamasu is the one who transferred his consciousness to Goku's body with Zamasu's help by giving him a Time-Ring, Potara, tells him about the Super Dragon Balls, etc. The reason why Black and Zamasu have the same Ki is probably because Zamasu infused some of his power to Goku's body.

I still need to re-watch every episode of Trunks Arc so far and list all of the stuff we know about Black and Zamasu, but I'm really digging this theory so far.

[HeroR]

Even if he already have a pair, I don't see him destroying a perfectly good pair, because what happened if Black or him lose one of the earrings they're holding. I just don't see Zamasu being that short-sighted, especially when they're a bunch of ways to kill Gawasu without outright vaporizing him.

At least in the sub I saw, Black said something to extent that all his life and ambition have been to be like Goku, or something to that extent. As for the ki sensing, we don't know if Trunks means that he can sense him even if he's suppressed, or he can now sense ki period. This becomes complicated when it comes to Black teleporting.

[Khin]

Even if he already have a pair, I don't see him destroying a perfectly good pair, because what happened if Black or him lose one of the earrings they're holding. I just don't see Zamasu being that short-sighted, especially when they're a bunch of ways to kill Gawasu without outright vaporizing him.

At least in the sub I saw, Black said something to extent that all his life and ambition have been to be like Goku, or something to that extent. As for the ki sensing, we don't know if Trunks means that he can sense him even if he's suppressed, or he can now sense ki period. This becomes complicated when it comes to Black teleporting.

I don't think Zamasu cares that much about the Potara except for using the Time-Ring, in this case Zamasu also have a pair. And perhaps what happened Gowasu did is similar to Muri when he destroyed the scouters so Freeza's lackeys wouldn't be able to use them, perhaps Zamasu told Gowasu to hand him his earrings and the latter destroyed it instead ?

I only watch two fansubs which so far have been good so I'm fairly certain what i saw wasn't a mistranslation. Also, we saw Black using Shunkan Ido only after he learned how to sense Ki, so i don't see any complications here.

[HeroR]

Even if he already have a pair, I don't see him destroying a perfectly good pair, because what happened if Black or him lose one of the earrings they're holding. I just don't see Zamasu being that short-sighted, especially when they're a bunch of ways to kill Gawasu without outright vaporizing him.

At least in the sub I saw, Black said something to extent that all his life and ambition have been to be like Goku, or something to that extent. As for the ki sensing, we don't know if Trunks means that he can sense him even if he's suppressed, or he can now sense ki period. This becomes complicated when it comes to Black teleporting.

I don't think Zamasu cares that much about the Potara except for using the Time-Ring, in this case Zamasu also have a pair. And perhaps what happened Gowasu did is similar to Muri when he destroyed the scouters so Freeza's lackeys wouldn't be able to use them, perhaps Zamasu told Gowasu to hand him his earrings and the latter destroyed it instead ?

I only watch two fansubs which so far have been good so I'm fairly certain what i saw wasn't a mistranslation. Also, we saw Black using Shunkan Ido only after he learned how to sense Ki, so i don't see any complications here.

Given how clueless Gawasu has been towards Zamasu, do you really think he would be as quick thinking as Muri. And I still don't see why he would vaporized Gawasu's body given that present Zamasu seems to just poisoned him. Why would the Future Zamasu chose a different method of death? And thinking about it, what would Future Zamasu need with the Time Rings? I don't think the Super Dragon Balls would be inactive in that timeline.

[Khin]

Given how clueless Gawasu has been towards Zamasu, do you really think he would be as quick thinking as Muri. And I still don't see why he would vaporized Gawasu's body given that present Zamasu seems to just poisoned him. Why would the Future Zamasu chose a different method of death? And thinking about it, what would Future Zamasu need with the Time Rings? I don't think the Super Dragon Balls would be inactive in that timeline.

Well if he realize that it's another Zamasu but evil and starts kicking his ass then he would definitely knock some sense, Gowasu is oblivious but he's not dumb. Plus, we still don't know how Gowasu will be killed (Although NEP suggests he might be poisoned), but there's a chance he's gonna come back with an after-life body like Elder Kaioshin, and the only way to kill an already dead person is to completely vaporize him.

Also, it's the Present Zamasu who will kill Future Gowasu, what i said in my theory is that Future Zamasu has no longer hatred for mortals and he will get killed too. Present Zamasu wouldn't be so sure that the Super Dragon Balls are active in the future, so he'd need the Time-Ring just in case.

[Dbzfan94]

Given how clueless Gawasu has been towards Zamasu, do you really think he would be as quick thinking as Muri. And I still don't see why he would vaporized Gawasu's body given that present Zamasu seems to just poisoned him. Why would the Future Zamasu chose a different method of death? And thinking about it, what would Future Zamasu need with the Time Rings? I don't think the Super Dragon Balls would be inactive in that timeline.

Well if he realize that it's another Zamasu but evil and starts kicking his ass then he would definitely knock some sense, Gowasu is oblivious but he's not dumb. Plus, we still don't know how Gowasu will be killed (Although NEP suggests he might be poisoned), but there's a chance he's gonna come back with an after-life body like Elder Kaioshin, and the only way to kill an already dead person is to completely vaporize him.

Also, it's the Present Zamasu who will kill Future Gowasu, what i said in my theory is that Future Zamasu has no longer hatred for mortals and he will get killed too. Present Zamasu wouldn't be so sure that the Super Dragon Balls are active in the future, so he'd need the Time-Ring just in case.

Future Zamasu still has the same goal as Black though (to kill all mortals)

[Khin]

Future Zamasu still has the same goal as Black though (to kill all mortals)

Future Zamasu has yet to be introduced so far so who knows what he's doing or what's in his mind currently ? Considering the major differences between the two timelines due, it's possible that Future Zamasu has no longer hatred for the mortals.

[Dbzfan94]

Future Zamasu still has the same goal as Black though (to kill all mortals)

Future Zamasu has yet to be introduced so far so who knows what he's doing or what's in his mind currently ? Considering the major differences between the two timelines due, it's possible that Future Zamasu has no longer hatred for the mortals.

So wait, Present Zamasu and the Zamasu fought in 57 are the same?? So lemme get this straight. He kills Gowasu, stills the time Ring, goes to Trunks timeline for whatever reason and we have two of the same dude from the same timeline running around?

[Khin]

So wait, Present Zamasu and the Zamasu fought in 57 are the same?? So lemme get this straight. He kills Gowasu, stills the time Ring, goes to Trunks timeline for whatever reason and we have two of the same dude from the same timeline running around?

While we still have no confirmation that the Zamasu we saw in episode 57 is the present one, it's highly likely that it's him given his shown hatred for Goku. Also while i did think Black is Future Zamasu before, i changed my mind, as you can see in my long post above.

[Dbzfan94]

So wait, Present Zamasu and the Zamasu fought in 57 are the same?? So lemme get this straight. He kills Gowasu, stills the time Ring, goes to Trunks timeline for whatever reason and we have two of the same dude from the same timeline running around?

While we still have no confirmation that the Zamasu we saw in episode 57 is the present one, it's highly likely that it's him given his shown hatred for Goku. Also while i did think Black is Future Zamasu before, i changed my mind, as you can see in my long post above.

Yeah I saw that, something along those lines was actually my theory as well before 56 revealed that to be false. Now i have no idea

[ryou766]

My personal theory is that Black is a female Kaioshin from U10 gone rogue that shares the same ideologies as Zamasu. U7 had several Kaioshins, so it's plausible that U10 does too. She uses the body of Mirai Goku to battle and become stronger. I guess the only flaw would be that Black has similar ki to Zamasu, but maybe all Kaioshin share the same ki? Has that ever been clarified?

[Kakarotto92]

While we still have no confirmation that the Zamasu we saw in episode 57 is the present one, it's highly likely that it's him given his shown hatred for Goku.

It can't be him. Present Zamasu wasn't even immortal yet at that time.

My personal theory is that Black is a female Kaioshin from U10 gone rogue that shares the same ideologies as Zamasu. U7 had several Kaioshins, so it's plausible that U10 does too. She uses the body of Mirai Goku to battle and become stronger. I guess the only flaw would be that Black has similar ki to Zamasu, but maybe all Kaioshin share the same ki? Has that ever been clarified?

Why a female though? There's nothing feminine about Black's behaviour.

[ryou766]

That's my own personal preference. Something I wouldn't mind happening.

[vashter]

I think that Goku Black is the present zamasu, and future zamasu is just a zamasu.