The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[nickzambuto]

Kibitokai vs Kid buu

If he could have been any help against Boo, any help at all, he would have stayed and fought. He himself was willing, it was the Elder Kaioshin who told him not to. Vegeta and Mr. Boo could at least hold Kid/Pure Boo off for awhile, but Kibitoshin would have been a total nonfactor.

[nickzambuto]

Super Perfect Cell
Dabura
Kibitoshin
Piccolo
Majin Vegeta
Broly
Bojack

ALL

vs Pure Boo

[Krillin1994]

Kibitokai vs Kid buu

If he could have been any help against Boo, any help at all, he would have stayed and fought. He himself was willing, it was the Elder Kaioshin who told him not to. Vegeta and Mr. Boo could at least hold Kid/Pure Boo off for awhile, but Kibitoshin would have been a total nonfactor.

People say that Kaioshin is around perfect cell level, no indicator really for Kibitos strength. But I'd assume that their fusion should have taken them to a higher level than Vegeta.

[nickzambuto]

Kibitokai vs Kid buu

If he could have been any help against Boo, any help at all, he would have stayed and fought. He himself was willing, it was the Elder Kaioshin who told him not to. Vegeta and Mr. Boo could at least hold Kid/Pure Boo off for awhile, but Kibitoshin would have been a total nonfactor.

People say that Kaioshin is around perfect cell level, no indicator really for Kibitos strength. But I'd assume that their fusion should have taken them to a higher level than Vegeta.

Unfortunately as logical as that sounds, in-universe we know for a fact that Kibitoshin would have been totally useless.

[DanielSSJ]

Demon King Piccolo stands still and tries to tank Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha in his buff form.

What happens?

Muten Roshi's Max Power Kamehameha would likely deal significant damage to Piccolo, but I don't think the damage would be debilitating. I think the effect would be similar to when Freeza was hit with that Genki Dama back in the Freeza arc.

Kibitokai vs Kid buu

My interpretation of Potara fusion is that, while being similar in strength isn't a requirement of Potara fusion, like it is with the Metamorian method, it plays a huge factor in how powerful the resulting fusion is. Since Goku and Vegeta were of practically even strength (aside from Super Saiyan 3), their fusion was extremely effective, which lead to Vegetto's absolutely astounding power. Meanwhile, Kibito and Kaioshin weren't very close in power (Kibito was around as strong as Gohan's normal form, and Kaioshin was somewhere between Piccolo and the adult Super Saiyans), so their fusion wasn't nearly as effective. At best, Kibitoshin might've been a smidge stronger than Goku and Vegeta at Super Saiyan 2, but would be a less effective fighter, due to his incompetence.
As the elder Kaioshin says “Don’t get carried away! No matter how strong you’ve become, you were never anything special. I doubt you could fight Boo head-on; you’d just end up getting absorbed. So stay here.”

Super Perfect Cell
Dabura
Kibitoshin
Piccolo
Majin Vegeta
Broly
Bojack

ALL

vs Pure Boo

Boo isn't the type of opponent you can overwhelm with numbers or wear down over time, due to his regeneration and his endless stamina. The only way to kill Boo is to completely obliterate him in one go. Even the strongest fighters on the list are at a quarter of Boo's full strength, and none of them have an attack that is both powerful enough and thorough enough to put Boo down for good.

[apex_pretador]

Thank you for the detailed reply.

However, I still don't agree with the idea of Gohan only fighting Goku due to knowing everything about him. That might have been the case in the beginning, and true to that, Gohan was taking the upperhand initially and countering Goku most of the time in hand-to-hand. However, when Goku took the advantage, it was by surprising Gohan with new techniques like the Zanzouken and the Kamehameha, techniques that Gohan was caught completely off guard by Goku knowing. It's due to that surprise that Goku took the advantage in the first place. So if anything, his knowledge of Goku provided just as much advantage as disadvantage. Also, on the topic of Goku fighting Tao in a death match, Goku didn't develop his whole separation of "tournament strength" and "fighting strength" thing until the 22nd Budokai. During the RRA arc he was still completely ignorant to the concept and weight of "death", he murdered RRA soldiers left and right, and was outright threatening to kill Gohan during their fight if he didn't give up.

So although Gohan ultimately admitted that Goku was way too powerful for him, the fact that he still kept up better than Taopaipai makes me put Gohan slightly above the assassin.

I did not say he was fighting goku solely because of the knowledge. However, that was the biggest factor.
Since I'm a power levels guy, I view it as :

Goku 90
Tao 83
Gohan 78 to 80

Tao pai pia actually managed to hurt goku without utilizing tail weakness, while gohan did not.


Again, there is no reason to believe that a bloodlusted goku does not fight harder than a morals on goku. He did not intend to kill gohan. He did not intend to kill anyone else either, as he kick-smashed akkuman into the wall, he might have killed him if he was going all out, but he did not. I'm not saying that he was specifically holding back, but there is a difference in hitting someone in character and hitting someone with the intent to kill.

In RRA arc, he did not kill many of them, no more than 4-5 of them, and considering the fact that they were also trying to kill him, it isn;t surprising.

Alternate 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai:

Contestants: Gohan, Taopaipai, Ox-King, King Chappa, Karin, Devil Man, Tsuru-Sennin, prime Chi-Chi.

Feel free to bracket the tournament however you want for the most interesting matches. Who wins 500,000 Zeni?!

Using a randomizer, I get this:

Quater finals

Gohan vs peak ChiCHi - Oh my, the closest match already? They are about dead even, but with Gohan's lack of intent to hurt a girl & ChiChi's ferocity, I see ChiChi winning.

King chappa vs Karin - Since this is 22nd Budokai chappa, he is around as powerful as goku was before training with karin, maybe a bit stronger. Chappa gets tooled.

Tao Pai Pai vs Tsuresenin - WHat? The brothers collide in the very first round? This is a really close match, but with raw power advantage and skill advantage (presumably), Tsuresenin beats his slacked-off brother.

Gyumao vs Akkuman - The big ox king is outclassed here, in every way. Akkuman can win this rather easily.

Semi finals

ChiChi vs karin - Chi Chi is not as strong as karin but karin's downfall might be her ferocity and possible lack of intent to attack a girl. However, Karin can dodge everything she throws at him, and will eventually win.

Akkuman vs Tsuresenin - The old man beats the old devil, even more easily than goku did.

Final

Karin vs Tsuresenin - Karin has the power advantage, skill advantage and the ability to sense ki. He wins in a spectacular main event.

Demon King Piccolo stands still and tries to tank Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha in his buff form.

What happens?

Terrible idea TBH. I'm sure that he could deflect it due to sheer power level and it would be better. If the master could concentrate this attack on the demon's body, then piccolo along with kami is vaporized.However if he fails to concentrate it in, then it leaves piccolo with a damage and the entire country gone.

Super Perfect Cell
Dabura
Kibitoshin
Piccolo
Majin Vegeta
Broly
Bojack

ALL

vs Pure Boo

If this is current piccolo he solos.
If this is not current piccolo, kid buu solos then blows up the solar system.

[DanielSSJ]

Gohan vs peak ChiCHi - Oh my, the closest match already? They are about dead even, but with Gohan's lack of intent to hurt a girl & ChiChi's ferocity, I see ChiChi winning.


ChiChi vs karin - Chi Chi is not as strong as karin but karin's downfall might be her ferocity and possible lack of intent to attack a girl. However, Karin can dodge everything she throws at him, and will eventually win.

Is there any real evidence that says these two are unwilling to fight women? I mean, they're not exactly Yamcha or anything. I especially find it doubtful that Gohan would hold back in a martial arts competition due to his opponent's gender.

[nickzambuto]

Thank you for the detailed reply.

However, I still don't agree with the idea of Gohan only fighting Goku due to knowing everything about him. That might have been the case in the beginning, and true to that, Gohan was taking the upperhand initially and countering Goku most of the time in hand-to-hand. However, when Goku took the advantage, it was by surprising Gohan with new techniques like the Zanzouken and the Kamehameha, techniques that Gohan was caught completely off guard by Goku knowing. It's due to that surprise that Goku took the advantage in the first place. So if anything, his knowledge of Goku provided just as much advantage as disadvantage. Also, on the topic of Goku fighting Tao in a death match, Goku didn't develop his whole separation of "tournament strength" and "fighting strength" thing until the 22nd Budokai. During the RRA arc he was still completely ignorant to the concept and weight of "death", he murdered RRA soldiers left and right, and was outright threatening to kill Gohan during their fight if he didn't give up.

So although Gohan ultimately admitted that Goku was way too powerful for him, the fact that he still kept up better than Taopaipai makes me put Gohan slightly above the assassin.

I did not say he was fighting goku solely because of the knowledge. However, that was the biggest factor.
Since I'm a power levels guy, I view it as :

Goku 90
Tao 83
Gohan 78 to 80

Tao pai pia actually managed to hurt goku without utilizing tail weakness, while gohan did not.


Again, there is no reason to believe that a bloodlusted goku does not fight harder than a morals on goku. He did not intend to kill gohan. He did not intend to kill anyone else either, as he kick-smashed akkuman into the wall, he might have killed him if he was going all out, but he did not. I'm not saying that he was specifically holding back, but there is a difference in hitting someone in character and hitting someone with the intent to kill.

In RRA arc, he did not kill many of them, no more than 4-5 of them, and considering the fact that they were also trying to kill him, it isn;t surprising.

Tao didn't hurt Goku. Goku stood still and withstood Tao's most powerful combination, which included getting kicked up into the atmosphere, kicked back down into the earth, and then getting divebombed onto his gut. Goku stood up, laughing, with some dirt on his clothes, and said something like "Hey that was pretty good. Now it's my turn!" and he proceeded to beat the ever loving crap out of Tao.

Compare that to Gohan. You said he never injured Goku. That's true. But Goku never injured him either. And yes, Goku was fighting with his all against Gohan. He didn't develop his whole "tournament strength" and "battle strength" thing until the 22nd Budokai. At that point, Goku had no concept of the severity of death and was literally threatening to kill Gohan. I'm watching the series in Japanese for the first time and I JUST watched those episodes the other day. You can check for yourself. Goku said "If you don't surrender I'll have to finish you off." Then raised his fist and yelled "This is the end!" and that's when Gohan grabbed his tail. The fact that he didn't kill Devil Man doesn't mean he was holding back. It just means he knocked Devil Man out before Devil Man died. It doesn't mean he was pulling his punches against Gohan.

You placed Goku and Tao's power way too close IMO. That fight was an outright curbstomp.

[LightBing]

Thank you for the detailed reply.

However, I still don't agree with the idea of Gohan only fighting Goku due to knowing everything about him. That might have been the case in the beginning, and true to that, Gohan was taking the upperhand initially and countering Goku most of the time in hand-to-hand. However, when Goku took the advantage, it was by surprising Gohan with new techniques like the Zanzouken and the Kamehameha, techniques that Gohan was caught completely off guard by Goku knowing. It's due to that surprise that Goku took the advantage in the first place. So if anything, his knowledge of Goku provided just as much advantage as disadvantage. Also, on the topic of Goku fighting Tao in a death match, Goku didn't develop his whole separation of "tournament strength" and "fighting strength" thing until the 22nd Budokai. During the RRA arc he was still completely ignorant to the concept and weight of "death", he murdered RRA soldiers left and right, and was outright threatening to kill Gohan during their fight if he didn't give up.

So although Gohan ultimately admitted that Goku was way too powerful for him, the fact that he still kept up better than Taopaipai makes me put Gohan slightly above the assassin.

I did not say he was fighting goku solely because of the knowledge. However, that was the biggest factor.
Since I'm a power levels guy, I view it as :

Goku 90
Tao 83
Gohan 78 to 80

Tao pai pia actually managed to hurt goku without utilizing tail weakness, while gohan did not.


Again, there is no reason to believe that a bloodlusted goku does not fight harder than a morals on goku. He did not intend to kill gohan. He did not intend to kill anyone else either, as he kick-smashed akkuman into the wall, he might have killed him if he was going all out, but he did not. I'm not saying that he was specifically holding back, but there is a difference in hitting someone in character and hitting someone with the intent to kill.

In RRA arc, he did not kill many of them, no more than 4-5 of them, and considering the fact that they were also trying to kill him, it isn;t surprising.

Tao didn't hurt Goku. Goku stood still and withstood Tao's most powerful combination, which included getting kicked up into the atmosphere, kicked back down into the earth, and then getting divebombed onto his gut. Goku stood up, laughing, with some dirt on his clothes, and said something like "Hey that was pretty good. Now it's my turn!" and he proceeded to beat the ever loving crap out of Tao.

Compare that to Gohan. You said he never injured Goku. That's true. But Goku never injured him either. And yes, Goku was fighting with his all against Gohan. He didn't develop his whole "tournament strength" and "battle strength" thing until the 22nd Budokai. At that point, Goku had no concept of the severity of death and was literally threatening to kill Gohan. I'm watching the series in Japanese for the first time and I JUST watched those episodes the other day. You can check for yourself. Goku said "If you don't surrender I'll have to finish you off." Then raised his fist and yelled "This is the end!" and that's when Gohan grabbed his tail. The fact that he didn't kill Devil Man doesn't mean he was holding back. It just means he knocked Devil Man out before Devil Man died. It doesn't mean he was pulling his punches against Gohan.

You placed Goku and Tao's power way too close IMO. That fight was an outright curbstomp.

Goku was bleeding from his head after Tao's attack. He was clearly damaged and commented how Tao is really good after. He shows no visible damage from Gohan. Altought he offers the same compliment he gave to Tao.
In both fights he purposely tanks damage, with Gohan he takes the kick and barely flinches. Compared with what was shown against Tao.
That's the difference that makes me put Tao above Gohan.
That said, it's close.

[nickzambuto]

Goku was bleeding from his head after Tao's attack. He was clearly damaged and commented how Tao is really good after. He shows no visible damage from Gohan. Altought he offers the same compliment he gave to Tao.
In both fights he purposely tanks damage, with Gohan he takes the kick and barely flinches. Compared with what was shown against Tao.
That's the difference that makes me put Tao above Gohan.
That said, it's close.

I don't know about that. I just checked both fights again. Goku's face was a little scratched up after Tao's assault, which he simply wiped away with a casual smile. "Bleeding from the head" makes it sound more severe than it was, and Tao issued an entire flurry of his best strikes against Goku only to achieve no effect. Gohan only issued one strike.

If we compare the fights side-by-side, I really don't understand how anyone can think Tao is supposed to be stronger than Gohan. You can put them in the same tier overall, sure. But it seems obvious to me that Gohan is stronger.

-Tao vs Goku was utter humiliation. Not a close match at all. Goku had clearly left Tao in the dust.
-Gohan vs Goku was a close fight, an "incredible match" according to Kame Sennin and the onlookers, Goku was wary of Gohan and described him as completely different from Baba's other fighters.

-Goku stood passively and took Tao's best combination, unguarded, not defending, and came out with dirt and scratch marks and a jolly, unphased smile.
-Goku braced and prepared for Gohan's one strike, grimacing and shaking and sweating with the effort to repel it, but ultimately succeeded after clear difficulty.

-Goku attacked Tao and Tao wasn't able to defend against even one strike, meaning he was completely overwhelmed.
-Goku and Gohan engaged in an actual battle where they each dodged, blocked, parried, and grappled each other.

-Goku caught Tao's dodonpa just to prove he could.
-Goku dodged Gohan's kamehameha.

-Goku beat the ever loving tar out of Tao and was pretty much unphased after the battle.
-Goku was unphased after his bout with Gohan, BUT GOHAN WASN'T HURT AT ALL EITHER. He withstood Goku's Kamehameha.

Most notably is the whole tanking damage thing. But you said Goku took Gohan's kick without flinching, while Tao managed to scrape him up. At the end of the day, regardless of superficial scratches that Goku simply wiped away, if he put all of his effort into repelling Gohan's kick, but withstood Tao's barrage without any actual difficulty, I think that very clearly indicates Gohan must be the stronger of the two because he actually pushed Goku more.

[nickzambuto]

Alright, let's just settle this outright. It seems to be a point of debate in several of my matches.

Grandpa Gohan vs Taopaipai vs King Chappa

[DanielSSJ]

Alright, let's just settle this outright. It seems to be a point of debate in several of my matches.

Grandpa Gohan vs Taopaipai vs King Chappa

Aside from the one scene where Taopaipai deals some superficial damage to an unresisting Goku, Goku completely trounced Taopaipai through and through. Taopaipai is shown to be completely incapable of even defending himself once Goku goes on the offense, Goku catches the Dodonpa in his hand and has some minor burns to show for it. It's a complete shutout.
On the other hand, Gohan actually manages to put up a fight against Goku. While it's fairly obvious Goku is physically superior, Gohan does manage to hold out fairly well, even if he gives up after Goku's tail snaps off. So yeah, Gohan wins, though it'd probably be fairly close.

[dbgtFO]

And yes, Goku was fighting with his all against Gohan. He didn't develop his whole "tournament strength" and "battle strength" thing until the 22nd Budokai. At that point, Goku had no concept of the severity of death and was literally threatening to kill Gohan. I'm watching the series in Japanese for the first time and I JUST watched those episodes the other day. You can check for yourself. Goku said "If you don't surrender I'll have to finish you off." Then raised his fist and yelled "This is the end!" and that's when Gohan grabbed his tail. The fact that he didn't kill Devil Man doesn't mean he was holding back. It just means he knocked Devil Man out before Devil Man died. It doesn't mean he was pulling his punches against Gohan.

Goku had already been holding back a lot throughout the tournament. He even says as much, when he defeats Devil Man, stating that he used too much power.

[apex_pretador]

Gohan vs peak ChiCHi - Oh my, the closest match already? They are about dead even, but with Gohan's lack of intent to hurt a girl & ChiChi's ferocity, I see ChiChi winning.


ChiChi vs karin - Chi Chi is not as strong as karin but karin's downfall might be her ferocity and possible lack of intent to attack a girl. However, Karin can dodge everything she throws at him, and will eventually win.

Is there any real evidence that says these two are unwilling to fight women? I mean, they're not exactly Yamcha or anything. I especially find it doubtful that Gohan would hold back in a martial arts competition due to his opponent's gender.

Goku said something like that gohan told him to take care of or not harm a girl, in BoDB, cant remember the exact quote.
Not sure about karin. This is why I said "possible lack of intent"

[nickzambuto]

And yes, Goku was fighting with his all against Gohan. He didn't develop his whole "tournament strength" and "battle strength" thing until the 22nd Budokai. At that point, Goku had no concept of the severity of death and was literally threatening to kill Gohan. I'm watching the series in Japanese for the first time and I JUST watched those episodes the other day. You can check for yourself. Goku said "If you don't surrender I'll have to finish you off." Then raised his fist and yelled "This is the end!" and that's when Gohan grabbed his tail. The fact that he didn't kill Devil Man doesn't mean he was holding back. It just means he knocked Devil Man out before Devil Man died. It doesn't mean he was pulling his punches against Gohan.

Goku had already been holding back a lot throughout the tournament. He even says as much, when he defeats Devil Man, stating that he used too much power.

Good point, but this doesn't take away from the fact that Goku was literally preparing to kill Gohan before Gohan grabbed his tail. There's really no way to argue around this.

[DanielSSJ]

Goku said something like that gohan told him to take care of or not harm a girl, in BoDB, cant remember the exact quote.
Not sure about karin. This is why I said "possible lack of intent"

I'm pretty sure it was along the lines of "be especially nice to girls" which is something any reasonable parental figure would tell a little boy. I doubt Gohan would let chivalry get in the way in a martial arts tournament. Doubly do for an immortal cat sage like Karin.

Good point, but this doesn't take away from the fact that Goku was literally preparing to kill Gohan before Gohan grabbed his tail. There's really no way to argue around this.

While I agree with you on the whole, I think you're taking Goku's "finishing blow" statement a bit too seriously.

[Power Metal]

Taking some inspiration from Polyphase Avatron's thread about the Cell Games here.
But what if, instead of just standing around for 10 days, Cell had intervened when Paragus and Broly showed up, again with Raichi and Hatchiyack, and also with Super 13 (that was in the 10 days leading to the Cell Games, right? Cant recall).
Instead of letting everyone duke it out, he convinced them all to save it for his games.
So in addition to all the participants that we saw in the canon, we have Paragus, Broly, Hatchiyack, and Super 13 as participants.

Would you like to see actual brackets being used with the winner being Cell's opponent at the end? Or keep the same rules Cell had, anyone can volunteer for the next match?
How does it all shake down?

Edit: Not sure if this is best suited for this thread or for the General What If thread.

[nickzambuto]

Taking some inspiration from Polyphase Avatron's thread about the Cell Games here.
But what if, instead of just standing around for 10 days, Cell had intervened when Paragus and Broly showed up, again with Raichi and Hatchiyack, and also with Super 13 (that was in the 10 days leading to the Cell Games, right? Cant recall).
Instead of letting everyone duke it out, he convinced them all to save it for his games.
So in addition to all the participants that we saw in the canon, we have Paragus, Broly, Hatchiyack, and Super 13 as participants.

Would you like to see actual brackets being used with the winner being Cell's opponent at the end? Or keep the same rules Cell had, anyone can volunteer for the next match?
How does it all shake down?

Edit: Not sure if this is best suited for this thread or for the General What If thread.

Make it a bracket style tournament, but have Cell compete just like everybody else rather than being the final opponent. I think this is the best way because IMO Broli is by far stronger than Perfect Cell, and maybe Hatchiyack too because I think Goku specifically commented that Hatchiyack was stronger than Broli. So the Cell Games would actually come down to the two of them.

[ZombieVito]

Kibitokai vs Kid buu

Kibitoshin gets finger flicked.

Super Perfect Cell
Dabura
Kibitoshin
Piccolo
Majin Vegeta
Broly
Bojack

ALL

vs Pure Boo

Piccolo desintegrates Boo with a simple ki blast. Since you didn't specified which Piccolo, I choose the one from the Champa arc.

Alright, let's just settle this outright. It seems to be a point of debate in several of my matches.

Grandpa Gohan vs Taopaipai

It's not easy but Gohan wins.

[In Brightest Day]

Alright, let's just settle this outright. It seems to be a point of debate in several of my matches.

Grandpa Gohan vs Taopaipai vs King Chappa

Aside from the one scene where Taopaipai deals some superficial damage to an unresisting Goku, Goku completely trounced Taopaipai through and through. Taopaipai is shown to be completely incapable of even defending himself once Goku goes on the offense, Goku catches the Dodonpa in his hand and has some minor burns to show for it. It's a complete shutout.
On the other hand, Gohan actually manages to put up a fight against Goku. While it's fairly obvious Goku is physically superior, Gohan does manage to hold out fairly well, even if he gives up after Goku's tail snaps off. So yeah, Gohan wins, though it'd probably be fairly close.

My recollection of Grandpa Gohan versus Son Goku is that it was a pretty damn competitive fight. Honestly, I don't see any reason why Tao would be in for anything but a completely one-sided beat down. It would be like the Cell Junior against Piccolo, where Piccolo (Tao) was strong enough to take a beating and not get one-shotted, but ultimately was on the defensive for the entire fight.