Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Chiki]

Goku told Kaioshin Cell was an enemy he fought seven years in the past and that he was probably as strong as Dabra. He didn't simply make that remark, he gave some context.

I have to admit it's very strange that SS2 Goku didn't mention SS2 Trunks surpassed Majin Boo in that moment, given that Trunks was aware of him and that his strength outstrips Gohan's when he fought Cell. I could say SS2 Goku didn't surpass Boo yet.

Trunks was aware of him, but Goku didn't know that Trunks was aware of him, so he wouldn't have mentioned Buu.

Trunks told Goku he prevented Boo from escaping his prison with the help of Kaioshin. So, Trunks had the notion Boo was pretty dangerous at the time and Goku was aware of that perspective.

Ah, ok, I made a mistake and thought they didn't mention Majin Buu, but they did.

Even so, Trunks never even met Majin Buu, so there's your answer. Goku knew that Trunks never encountered Majin Buu so I don't see why he would mention him. It wouldn't be very appropriate.

[Hugo Boss]

Trunks was aware of him, but Goku didn't know that Trunks was aware of him, so he wouldn't have mentioned Buu.

Trunks told Goku he prevented Boo from escaping his prison with the help of Kaioshin. So, Trunks had the notion Boo was pretty dangerous at the time and Goku was aware of that perspective.

Ah, ok, I made a mistake and thought they didn't mention Majin Buu, but they did.

Even so, Trunks never even met Majin Buu, so there's your answer. Goku knew that Trunks never encountered Majin Buu so I don't see why he would mention him. It wouldn't be very appropriate.

I'm not saying Goku should mention Boo, but if he was complimenting SS2 Trunks' power, why not comparing him with someone more impressive than SS2 Gohan? Goku at least assumed Trunks knew Boo would be stronger than the Gohan he was familiar with and thus preferred to not engage a direct fight against him.

"Hey, remember that guy you prevented from escaping? You could actually beat him all on your own the way you are now."

[TheMikado]

Saying you're stronger than some guy you've never seen or met before only heard of usually wouldn't help much. Especially considering the buu that actually escaped wasn't all that impressive anyway.

[buutenks]

This is a bit confusing for me. In the u6 saga in the manga, ssj1 Goku is apparently above ssj blue Vegeta(below 10% power) and ssj god is below full power ssj blue. Which would mean it is inbetween x2 and x10 times stronger than ssj1. But vs Trunks, who is ssj3 level, he gets one shotted by ssj god. ssj3 gives a 8x boost to ssj1, so according to u6 chapters, ssj god is around that level.

[TheMikado]

This is a bit confusing for me. In the u6 saga in the manga, ssj1 Goku is apparently above ssj blue Vegeta(below 10% power) and ssj god is below full power ssj blue. Which would mean it is inbetween x2 and x10 times stronger than ssj1. But vs Trunks, who is ssj3 level, he gets one shotted by ssj god. ssj3 gives a 8x boost to ssj1, so according to u6 chapters, ssj god is around that level.

That's how I see it. I always had SSJ3 as an x400 multiplier to x500 for SSG. Which when divided by the SSJ multipliers meant a 8 and 10 multiplier on SSJ, but because SSG no longer exists I just put SSB in as the multiplier for SSG instead.. which also makes Vegeta and Trunks sparring match make more sense as well as the Trunks vs Rose Black.

[ekrolo2]

This is a bit confusing for me. In the u6 saga in the manga, ssj1 Goku is apparently above ssj blue Vegeta(below 10% power) and ssj god is below full power ssj blue. Which would mean it is inbetween x2 and x10 times stronger than ssj1. But vs Trunks, who is ssj3 level, he gets one shotted by ssj god. ssj3 gives a 8x boost to ssj1, so according to u6 chapters, ssj god is around that level.

He's not stronger than Vegeta with Super Saiyan 1, Whis confirms this when he says Goku only closes the gap between himself and Hit's strength (and becomes stronger than Vegeta was) when he activates Super Saiyan God.

The only thing that points to Goku being stronger with just SS is Beerus bitching about how Hit has an unfair advantage then he needs Whis to explain to him what's actually going on. Making that statement just what it was: Beerus bitching.

[buutenks]

This is a bit confusing for me. In the u6 saga in the manga, ssj1 Goku is apparently above ssj blue Vegeta(below 10% power) and ssj god is below full power ssj blue. Which would mean it is inbetween x2 and x10 times stronger than ssj1. But vs Trunks, who is ssj3 level, he gets one shotted by ssj god. ssj3 gives a 8x boost to ssj1, so according to u6 chapters, ssj god is around that level.

He's not stronger than Vegeta with Super Saiyan 1, Whis confirms this when he says Goku only closes the gap between himself and Hit's strength (and becomes stronger than Vegeta was) when he activates Super Saiyan God.

The only thing that points to Goku being stronger with just SS is Beerus bitching about how Hit has an unfair advantage then he needs Whis to explain to him what's actually going on. Making that statement just what it was: Beerus bitching.

I am talking about ssj1 Goku fighting evenly with Hit, while ssj blue Vegeta(below 10%) got downed in a few hits.

[TheMikado]

Ok, yeah I'm don't particularly like that part either but obviously some degree of of that was written in both versions. I don't think it was meant to show SSB being so low in raw power terms but I definitely it shows SSB is only maybe x10 stronger than SSJ so Vegeta was likely fighting at a level somewhere between SSJ2 and SSJ3.

[buutenks]

That's how I see it. I always had SSJ3 as an x400 multiplier to x500 for SSG. Which when divided by the SSJ multipliers meant a 8 and 10 multiplier on SSJ, but because SSG no longer exists I just put SSB in as the multiplier for SSG instead.. which also makes Vegeta and Trunks sparring match make more sense as well as the Trunks vs Rose Black.

That wouldnt make much sense tho. Since if in the manga, base Goku is around Buu saga base Goku, then ssj blue would only be 500x times stronger. Which would mean, ssg is below ultimate Gohan, Buutenks,Buuhan, ssj3 Gotenks etc. And we know that is not the case.

This would work if manga base Goku is ssg level or as strong as the anime one(above ssj3 Gotenks at least). Which would mean, Trunks is very powerful.

That, or Toyotaru simply made a mistake with the 10x thing in the u6 saga. Since ssj blue cannot be only 500x base Goku if base Goku is only at his buu saga base level.

[ekrolo2]

This is a bit confusing for me. In the u6 saga in the manga, ssj1 Goku is apparently above ssj blue Vegeta(below 10% power) and ssj god is below full power ssj blue. Which would mean it is inbetween x2 and x10 times stronger than ssj1. But vs Trunks, who is ssj3 level, he gets one shotted by ssj god. ssj3 gives a 8x boost to ssj1, so according to u6 chapters, ssj god is around that level.

He's not stronger than Vegeta with Super Saiyan 1, Whis confirms this when he says Goku only closes the gap between himself and Hit's strength (and becomes stronger than Vegeta was) when he activates Super Saiyan God.

The only thing that points to Goku being stronger with just SS is Beerus bitching about how Hit has an unfair advantage then he needs Whis to explain to him what's actually going on. Making that statement just what it was: Beerus bitching.

I am talking about ssj1 Goku fighting evenly with Hit, while ssj blue Vegeta(below 10%) got downed in a few hits.

Hit also fights evenly with Goku in Base form, does that mean Base Goku is stronger than Vegeta too?

Hit is merely suppressing himself throughout most of the fights in the tournament so he doesn't kill anyone. We know he has difficulty with this when he asks what he's supposed to do with a downed Vegeta and then confirms he's refraining from using all his techniques when Goku fires the Kamehameha at him.

Why doesn't Vegeta do better if he's on par with Hit while Base & SS Goku do? Because Vegeta fails to see how Hit's technique works, meaning he's fighting an even adversary who's got an unfair advantage. Even if Vegeta can land a strike, Hit can just time skip away from it and bitch slap him five times over before he knows what happened.

[TheMikado]

That's how I see it. I always had SSJ3 as an x400 multiplier to x500 for SSG. Which when divided by the SSJ multipliers meant a 8 and 10 multiplier on SSJ, but because SSG no longer exists I just put SSB in as the multiplier for SSG instead.. which also makes Vegeta and Trunks sparring match make more sense as well as the Trunks vs Rose Black.

That wouldnt make much sense tho. Since if in the manga, base Goku is around Buu saga base Goku, then ssj blue would only be 500x times stronger. Which would mean, ssg is below ultimate Gohan, Buutenks,Buuhan, ssj3 Gotenks etc. And we know that is not the case.

This would work if manga base Goku is ssg level or as strong as the anime one(above ssj3 Gotenks at least). Which would mean, Trunks is very powerful.

That, or Toyotaru simply made a mistake with the 10x thing in the u6 saga. Since ssj blue cannot be only 500x base Goku if base Goku is only at his buu saga base level.

I prefaced it by saying there would have to be two different scenarios.

Manga version: everyone at Z levels. SSG x500 SSB x 5000
Anime version: base starts at x400-500, normal SSJ levels, SSB x 500. On top of 400 base. This obviously makes the anime version dramatically stronger but it was that way anyway already.

[ekrolo2]

Here's how I see the PLs working for the U6 tournament just to get it all out of the way. This is before we knew if 2 and 3 would appear again in the manga so bear that in mind.

[spoiler]Pre-Tournament:

Goku - 180 mill (Base)
- 90 bill (Super Saiyan, x500 Base)
- 18 trill (Super Saiyan God, x100 000 Base, 1.8 on the God Scale)
- 36 trill (Super Saiyan Blue, x200 000 Base, 3.6 on the God Scale)

Vegeta - 175 mill (Base)
- 87.5 bill (Super Saiyan, x500 Base)
- 35 trill (Super Saiyan Blue, x200 000 Base, 3.5 on the God Scale)

Beerus - 100 trill

Whis - 150 trill

Champa - 100 trill

Vados - 170 trill

A few things to get out of the way! The reason for the extremely high increase of regular Super Saiyan is due to Goku & Vegeta increasing their skill with the form to such a degree, it gives them more power than either 2 or 3 while sapping less strength! Their base forms being that low is due to the fact Piccolo, a fighter who isn't shown or mentioned training can take on Frost who Goku and Vegeta needed Super Saiyan in order to defeat, even after two long fights and being quite a bit tired. Thus indicating that Piccolo is still above Goku & Vegeta in their base forms.

The Tournament:

Universe 7 Team

Goku - 280 mil (Base)
- 140 bill (Super Saiyan)
- 10 bill (Super Saiyan vs Frost)
-28 trill (Super Saiyan God, 2.8 on the God Scale)
- 56 trill (Super Saiyan Blue, 5.6 on the God Scale)

Vegeta - 275 mill (Base)
- 137.5 bill (Super Saiyan)
- 5 bill (Super Saiyan vs Frost)
- 55 trill (Super Saiyan Blue)
- 5.5 trillion (Super Saiyan Blue vs Hit)

Piccolo - 2 bill (with weights)
- 2.75 bill (without weights)

Boo - 15 bill

Monaka - fodder

Universe 6 Team

Hit - 280 mill (vs Base Goku)
- 5.5 trill (vs tired Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta)
- 140 bill (vs Super Saiyan Goku)
- 28 trill (vs Super Saiyan God Goku, Max Power)

Cabba - 280 mill (Base Form)
- 14 bill (Super Saiyan, x50 Base)

Magetta - 150 bill (pre-insult)
- 0 (post-insult)

Frost - 90 mill (First Form)
- 180 mill (Second Form)
- 270 mill (Third Form)
- 7.5 bill (Final Form, vs Goku)
- 3 bill (vs Piccolo)
- 1 bill (vs Super Saiyan Vegeta)

Botamo - No clue, his durability could let him tank hits from even Blooper Saiyan's.

Why give Goku and Vegeta such small training gains? Well, I think its because the ROSAT has lost its effectiveness. Already in the Cell Saga we see how the initial time going in the one that yields the best results while further entries into aren't really worthwhile. Whether this has to do with how soon you go in again after the first time or just the fighters getting used to its environment is a debate onto itself. But personally, I'm firmly on the latter side. Like any training form, its good for a certain level of fighter then just rapidly losses effectiveness later on.

Cabba only gets an x50 increase for Super Saiyan because he just unlocked it, once he gets stronger and shows back up, he'll probably unlock its full potential like Goku and Vegeta have.

And now, Hit. Hits power varies more than any others in the whole tournament if you ask me. When he beats Vegeta, he doesn't know how to deal with his unconscious body, to throw it out or what? This along with later comments about how he's refraining from using killing blows tells me Hit is purposefully dropping his strength to match that of his opponent. This would usually result in an even battle where both contestants can equally wound one another (see Goku vs Cell for proof). However, with Time Leap, Hit can effectively avoid any attack and damage his opponent enough to beat them down, but not kill them.

This is why Base Goku is able to hurt him, he drops himself to Base Goku's level to be able to beat him up and not outright kill him which leaves him vulnerable to Goku's surprise Hit. Going back to Cell vs Goku again, if Cell fought Goku at max power, nothing Goku threw at him would've dented the bastard. However, because Cell dropped his strength to fight equally with Goku, this left him open to devastating surprise attacks like the IT Kamehameha. I believe this is a very similar situation.

Some might find it weird a 1000 year old warrior like Hit would feel the need to match his opponent, but, like in the anime, he's after Vados' cube and doesn't want to accidentally get himself disqualified. Thus, I chalk up Hits varying power as him playing things really safe for the most part.[/spoiler]

[buutenks]

Well, from the anime what i can tell is this:

Base Goku/Vegeta are above ssj3 Gotenks, so they are easily Buuhan/ Super Vegetto level.
ssj1 Goku/Vegeta are ssg level, since Goku completely absorbed the power in ep 13(i think it was) and Vegeta catched up to Goku.
ssj2 is 2x ssg and ssj3 is 8x ssg.
ssj blue is much stronger than ssj3 according to what Vegeta said after Goku fought Trunks. Tho later on Trunks is able to take multiple hits from ssj blue vegeta, but then ssj3 Goku one shotted Trunks, so most likely Vegeta was holding back enough to not ko Trunks.

Here's how I see the PLs working for the U6 tournament just to get it all out of the way. This is before we knew if 2 and 3 would appear again in the manga so bear that in mind.

That would be about right and the most sensible thing. That would mean U6 fighters r strong but not too strong,and definitely not god level. Compared to the anime, where FF Frost and ssj Cabba are Buuhan level atleast and Magetta is ssg level. I admit, i like it like that much more, since it means ssg is still special.

Tho, i get the feeling that even in the anime, apart from Hit, none of the u6 fighters even compare to ssg.

[ekrolo2]

Here's how I see the PLs working for the U6 tournament just to get it all out of the way. This is before we knew if 2 and 3 would appear again in the manga so bear that in mind.

That would be about right and the most sensible thing. That would mean U6 fighters r strong but not too strong,and definitely not god level. Compared to the anime, where FF Frost and ssj Cabba are Buuhan level atleast and Magetta is ssg level. I admit, i like it like that much more, since it means ssg is still special.

Tho, i get the feeling that even in the anime, apart from Hit, none of the u6 fighters even compare to ssg.

I'm not opposed to strong opponents existing in another universe but the anime does take it too far. It creates this situation where Cabba, someone implied to be relatively young and even inexperienced, is stronger than Vegetto but he's never, along with the rest of his species, ever faced an opponent that's made him snap to become a Super Saiyan? Nor any other U6 Saiyan in history?

Perhaps the anime will explain this as U6 Saiyan's having really strong base forms meaning they don't ever feel threatened enough to transform but that's a really clunky explanation since U6 in the anime is generally really powerful.

[buutenks]

I'm not opposed to strong opponents existing in another universe but the anime does take it too far. It creates this situation where Cabba, someone implied to be relatively young and even inexperienced, is stronger than Vegetto but he's never, along with the rest of his species, ever faced an opponent that's made him snap to become a Super Saiyan? Nor any other U6 Saiyan in history?

Perhaps the anime will explain this as U6 Saiyan's having really strong base forms meaning they don't ever feel threatened enough to transform but that's a really clunky explanation since U6 in the anime is generally really powerful.

My only issue here is Trunks and base Black. Since Trunks is comparable to ssj2 Goku, it means he is above ssg in the anime. Due to ssj1 power not being changed, Trunks, Black and Zamasu got a big power boost in the anime.

[Bullza]

That, or Toyotaru simply made a mistake with the 10x thing in the u6 saga. Since ssj blue cannot be only 500x base Goku if base Goku is only at his buu saga base level.

Whether or not Goku did absorb the power of God he definitely isn't at Buu saga Base level either way. This is supposed to be years after the Buu saga AND he's been training with Whis AND he's been training with Vegeta (with another three years in the ROSAT).

So he's either at the same level as in the anime or he's just at a much higher level than in the Buu saga to an unknown extent.

You're right about the multiplier though, SSJB couldn't be 500x Base if Base was Buu saga level because he wouldn't even be as strong as SSJ2 Gotenks.

[ekrolo2]

That, or Toyotaru simply made a mistake with the 10x thing in the u6 saga. Since ssj blue cannot be only 500x base Goku if base Goku is only at his buu saga base level.

Whether or not Goku did absorb the power of God he definitely isn't at Buu saga Base level either way. This is supposed to be years after the Buu saga AND he's been training with Whis AND he's been training with Vegeta (with another three years in the ROSAT).

So he's either at the same level as in the anime or he's just at a much higher level than in the Buu saga to an unknown extent.

You're right about the multiplier though, SSJB couldn't be 500x Base if Base was Buu saga level because he wouldn't even be as strong as SSJ2 Gotenks.

He's definitely stronger than his boo saga self in the manga but not by much I reckon. It takes him years of hard training just to pass Gohan so anything pre-Whis likely hasn't yielded him any major strength gains. There's no way he's anywhere close to his anime self as he never absorbed God (the F manga doesn't count as that was written with the movies power rules in mind as far as I'm concerned).

I'd say its pretty fair putting him anywhere between his Super Saiyan strength in the Android Saga to Kamiccolo Pre-ROSAT.

[buutenks]

This is post Whis training base Goku tho. So id say it isnt so far fetched that he surpassed Gotenks and Gohan in his base form even in the manga.

[Bullza]

There's no way he's anywhere close to his anime self as he never absorbed God

Not necessarily. In the anime Vegeta never absorbed God. He just trained with Whis and Goku to get as strong as he currently is in Base form.

In the manga he also trained with Whis and Goku just the same. So unless he got far less out of doing pretty much the same thing in the anime...

Plus depending on the speed feats in the manga their Base forms could be stronger than SSJ/Perfect Cell level which at that point I suppose SSJB could be 500x stronger and it could all work.

[TheMikado]

This is post Whis training base Goku tho. So id say it isnt so far fetched that he surpassed Gotenks and Gohan in his base form even in the manga.

We were never actually shown or told the fruits of their training outside SSB in the manga, plus the fact that Vegeta states they hit their limit.