How does Golden Frieza fare off against fighters in GT

[Perfectionist-Cell]

And why is everyone bringing feats into this? GT has no REAL feats to talk about.

Yeah that's primarily why I don't use them as there's not feat constant for comparison. There was only one instance of a battle possibly destroying things at universe level in Super yet we are also to believe Trunks has far surpassed that level on his own.

The universal feat is still up for debate though.

[TheMikado]

What do you think the SSG and SSB multiplier is for each version?

For Super & The movies: SSG is x10 000 base and SSBlue x20 000 base.

The manga of Super: SSG is x100 000 base and SSBlue x200 000 base

Super Saiyan 4 is x5000 base + whatever potential unlock you get upon achieving it.

Those multipliers are way higher than I would have attributed them to. What made you estimate them to be that high?

[Saiyan007]

And why is everyone bringing feats into this? GT has no REAL feats to talk about.

And who's fault is that?.....

All that does is show how superior Super is we don't knock down the person who has the feats

And why would the universal feat be up for debate?

Once the narrator in episode 13 said that Goku and Beerus are hitting each other with the power to destroy the universe and Goku punching Beerus sphere of destruction which had more than enough energy to destroy the universe that shows how strong the characters are.GT characters don't have feats or statements like that.They don't even come close

People underestimate the power it takes to destroy the universe.

Also Golden Freeza gets scaling to universal characters meaning since he's hilariously stronger than BOG Goku who had universal feats he is universal as well.

[TheMikado]

And why is everyone bringing feats into this? GT has no REAL feats to talk about.

And who's fault is that?.....

All that does is show how superior Super is we don't knock down the person who has the feats

And why would the universal feat be up for debate?

Once the narrator in episode 13 said that Goku and Beerus are hitting each other with the power to destroy the universe and Goku punching Beerus sphere of destruction which had more than enough energy to destroy the universe that shows how strong the characters are.GT characters don't have feats or statements like that.They don't even come close

People underestimate the power it takes to destroy the universe.

Also Golden Freeza gets scaling to universal characters meaning since he's hilariously stronger than BOG Goku who had universal feats he is universal as well.

I think that is the problem though, to our knowledge they don't even have the power to destroy 1 planet in a single punch, to do so at the entirety of the universe literally the ridiculous when just our galaxy alone has 10 trillion planets and there are billions, maybe trillions of galaxies each with trillions of planets and they suddenly can destroy all that with a single punch but some how SSB and Golden Frieza can fight on solid planet earth without destroying it..... yeah that's part of the problem. The feats literally scaled up to infinity where it has no actually basis for real comparison. You literally have SSG as stronger as "infinity" with SSJ forms being "infinity + 1" and SSB being "infinity x infinity". It's like something 7 year olds would come up with in the playground.

[Saiyan007]

And why is everyone bringing feats into this? GT has no REAL feats to talk about.

And who's fault is that?.....

All that does is show how superior Super is we don't knock down the person who has the feats

And why would the universal feat be up for debate?

Once the narrator in episode 13 said that Goku and Beerus are hitting each other with the power to destroy the universe and Goku punching Beerus sphere of destruction which had more than enough energy to destroy the universe that shows how strong the characters are.GT characters don't have feats or statements like that.They don't even come close

People underestimate the power it takes to destroy the universe.

Also Golden Freeza gets scaling to universal characters meaning since he's hilariously stronger than BOG Goku who had universal feats he is universal as well.

I think that is the problem though, to our knowledge they don't even have the power to destroy 1 planet in a single punch, to do so at the entirety of the universe literally the m

Uh Wut? They cleary do have the power to destroy the planet in a punch.

Goku after the second punch was cancelling out universal lvl strikes

Universal>>>>>Planetary

That coupled with narrator statements confirming they're universal as well as Goku destroying Beerus attack which had more than enough energy to destroy the universe with a punch I fail to see how they're not universal.

Too many statements and feats to just simply ignore it.

It was already explained that Goku knows how to cancel out the attacks so the shockwaves don't show up again.That coupled with attack potency and remembering these guys are masters of ki control I fail to see the problem.

Besides the narrator himself is better than anyone else's words....


Again I'm not working for Toei so blame them if you don't like the Gods being overpowered but that's the route they decided to go with heck even in the manga something similar happened so you know Toriyama was behind this.

He put the feats in there for a reason,to show that they're gods.


That's something GT lacks in and that's ultimately why they're not as strong

[TheMikado]

Read my whole post I accidentally submitted it.
The problem is the scale. The scale actually would t even be so bad except we have Frieza and all of universe 7 far exceeding that power to destroy the earth in a single punch in 4 months of training with the literal trillionsxtrillion multiplier. Then Vegeta getting it by training and then Trunks magically exceeding it training on his own makes zero sense.

Remember you're the one stating if I understood how much power it takes to destroy the planet in a single punch and I do. Which is why they improving that incredibly amount in such a short time makes little sense and beyond the suspension of disbelief.

[ekrolo2]

What do you think the SSG and SSB multiplier is for each version?

For Super & The movies: SSG is x10 000 base and SSBlue x20 000 base.

The manga of Super: SSG is x100 000 base and SSBlue x200 000 base

Super Saiyan 4 is x5000 base + whatever potential unlock you get upon achieving it.

Those multipliers are way higher than I would have attributed them to. What made you estimate them to be that high?

For the manga I have it that high to compensate for Goku & Vegeta's much weaker base states, for the movies and Super I just have em there because. The movies are too vague and the anime makes too little sense for me to really bother with either.

[Saiyan007]

Read my whole post I accidentally submitted it.
The problem is the scale. The scale actually would t even be so bad except we have Frieza and all of universe 7 far exceeding that power to destroy the earth in a single punch in 4 months of training with the literal trillionsxtrillion multiplier. Then Vegeta getting it by training and then Trunks magically exceeding it training on his own makes zero sense.

Remember you're the one stating if I understood how much power it takes to destroy the planet in a single punch and I do. Which is why they improving that incredibly amount in such a short time makes little sense and beyond the suspension of disbelief.

Characters in other fictional series make stronger jumps in shorter time frames don't see me saying we shouldn't be taking those feats serious.Seriously comics are worse.Find some ancient stone and bam strong enough to challenge cosmic foes.

This entire argument really boils down to you acknowledging they're ridiculously strong but don't what to accept what's shown because the timespan is too short to make these gains.

At this point you're making your bias get in the way of the what's being argued here.

[TheMikado]

Read my whole post I accidentally submitted it.
The problem is the scale. The scale actually would t even be so bad except we have Frieza and all of universe 7 far exceeding that power to destroy the earth in a single punch in 4 months of training with the literal trillionsxtrillion multiplier. Then Vegeta getting it by training and then Trunks magically exceeding it training on his own makes zero sense.

Remember you're the one stating if I understood how much power it takes to destroy the planet in a single punch and I do. Which is why they improving that incredibly amount in such a short time makes little sense and beyond the suspension of disbelief.

Characters in other fictional series make stronger jumps in shorter time frames don't see me saying we shouldn't be taking those feats serious.Seriously comics are worse.Find some ancient stone and bam strong enough to challenge cosmic foes.

This entire argument really boils down to you acknowledging they're ridiculously strong but don't what to accept what's shown because the timespan is too short to make these gains.

At this point you're making your bias get in the way of the what's being argued here.

There's no bias here, the in universe rate of return on TRAINING alone has NEVER been this high ever in the entirety of series. Trunk training alone in a post apocalyptic future where he had trouble with Dabura is now several hundred times stronger than what it would take to "punch" the universe out of existence just by training and trying really hard...

Even for Dragonball this level of inflation has literally never happened without a plot device mechanism. I can't even name a single comic other than OPM which specifically makes light of this trope which has this level of power inflation with no actual plot device to make it so. This is no bias, we are comparing the literary mechanisms of Super to that of its peers, not Shakespeare and when it comes to the power inflation it just doesn't hold up. This is not a power level debate. I am asking for the most concrete, quantifiable measures we have to make a comparison for the question asked. If you want to use the universal feat then you also have to admit to the incredibly astronomical power inflation and unprecedented multipliers which ekrolo2 is showing, and if you want to use the universe feat as the benchmark, his multipliers and unbelievably too low to correlate with the feats you're talking about.

[Perfectionist-Cell]

And why is everyone bringing feats into this? GT has no REAL feats to talk about.

And who's fault is that?.....

All that does is show how superior Super is we don't knock down the person who has the feats

And why would the universal feat be up for debate?

Once the narrator in episode 13 said that Goku and Beerus are hitting each other with the power to destroy the universe and Goku punching Beerus sphere of destruction which had more than enough energy to destroy the universe that shows how strong the characters are.GT characters don't have feats or statements like that.They don't even come close

People underestimate the power it takes to destroy the universe.

Also Golden Freeza gets scaling to universal characters meaning since he's hilariously stronger than BOG Goku who had universal feats he is universal as well.

So you use feats on a series with no feats?

Power scaling> Feats in this situation. If you want to use that universal feat then Whis is only universal as well since he said he could not stop a universal attack. You do realize the narrator just spouts whatever nonsense goes on in the series right? If the last episode was full of lies the narrator would tell us about the last episode which was full of lies.

If they were truly universal why haven't they shown any feat close to that ever since? Don't give me that they can control there ki bull crap because Buutenks was gonna destroy earth and had his blast already charged. Then Goku Destructo Disc him and his blast flies off in the background and nothing was destroyed.

GT Goku> Majin Buu (In General) Goku has encountered every Buu except Evil Buu and he called every Buu ''Majin Buu''.

[Saiyan007]

So you use feats on a series with no feats?

Dragon Ball has plenty of feats all throughout the series....

Again blame the writers for GT for b it displaying their characters in a powerful way.

Super makes it crystal clear on numerous times on how powerful these guys are

Power scaling> Feats in this situation.

You need feats to power scale in the first place.

If you want to use that universal feat then Whis is only universal as well since he said he could not stop a universal attack.

That can easily be explained as Whis not wanting to reveal how power he is to the rest of the audience

You do realize the narrator just spouts whatever nonsense goes on in the series right?

Narrator breaks the 4th wall and knows more than any character excluding the authors.He's mainly there for exposition.

If they were truly universal why haven't they shown any feat close to that ever since? Don't give me that they can control there ki bull crap because Buutenks was gonna destroy earth and had his blast already charged. Then Goku Destructo Disc him and his blast flies off in the background and nothing was destroyed.

It's them being masters of controlling thier ki vegeta suicide explosion only made a crater in the ground but the explosion has the potency behind it to kill Cell who can survive planet explosions with ease.It's a common thing all throughout dragon Ball.

GT Goku> Majin Buu (In General) Goku has encountered every Buu except Evil Buu and he called every Buu ''Majin Buu''.

GT Goku has no universal feats so saying he's stronger than majin buu ultimately means nothing .


GT Goku can't destroy a universe had never been stated to be able to destroy one so that means he loses

[Cetra]

Don't act like you would provide anything empirical, scientifically unequivocal, ultimately being able to prove it. What you say is also just a claim with some fan interpretation, a bunch of other claims without anything and the ability to ignore other arguments or the fact that a show can be inconsistent all the time.

[Saiyan007]

Don't act like you would provide anything empirical, scientifically unequivocal, ultimately being able to prove it. What you say is also just a claim with some fan interpretation, a bunch of other claims without anything and the ability to ignore other arguments or the fact that a show can be inconsistent all the time.

My claims come from the show itself I don't need to make up fan numbers to explain my reasoning

[Cetra]

Don't act like you would provide anything empirical, scientifically unequivocal, ultimately being able to prove it. What you say is also just a claim with some fan interpretation, a bunch of other claims without anything and the ability to ignore other arguments or the fact that a show can be inconsistent all the time.

My claims come from the show itself I don't need to make up fan numbers to explain my reasoning

Your reason comes from your personal interpretation about statements from the show. And that's it. Just like I could easily write tons of illogical stuff about Dragon Ball in a thread and a person replies totally confident and as if it is a known fact that answer x is the answer to what I say. A lot of fans do that. But having possible answers does not mean that they are THE answers. Especially not when you ignore ambiguity and very important details like "logic does not matter if owner intention prioritizes something else". And a lot of what you say is made up. There is fictional work that actually provides really unequivocal answers to questions. Dragon Ball is way too much not interested in staying serious with that.

[TheMikado]

Don't act like you would provide anything empirical, scientifically unequivocal, ultimately being able to prove it. What you say is also just a claim with some fan interpretation, a bunch of other claims without anything and the ability to ignore other arguments or the fact that a show can be inconsistent all the time.

My claims come from the show itself I don't need to make up fan numbers to explain my reasoning

I don't think anyone is asking me you to do that.

-People stated theories based on known multipliers throughout the show
-You cited feats, specifically universe feats
- people stated that particular feat is inconsistent within its own series
- you state people underestimate the power needed to destroy the universe in a punch
-you were given the actual number of planets and galaxies, showing you from a scientific perspective just vast that particular feat means to correlate with your underestimating claim
- this then showed the gap in power someone at Trunks level would need to over come to not only meet that level, but become several hundred times stronger than that through only training.

I think the point people are making is that if you want to cling to that particular feat as evidence and state people are underestimating that power required to perform said feat, when someone actual explains just how vast said feat is in terms of where they were versus what is required. It begs the question of who is really underestimating the power required for that feat as well as the story mechanics required to Trunks trillions multipliers by trillions of times stronger when the highest single none compounded multiplier boost we have ever gotten in the series was the x50.

Basically cling to that feat as hard evidence opens it to scrutiny of just how vast they power gap in multiple trillions is and how insane it is for Trunks to work it out on his own. Using this feat doesn't make him hundreds, thousands or even millions of times stronger as a multiplier it's makes his beyond googol times stronger (the highest known number with 100 zeros after it) you literally cannot count how much his multiplier would be required to be to reach that SSG level as it's basically the same as saying infinity. Further he can do hundreds of times stronger than infinity and to top that off GoldenFrieza/SSB are beyond that level with Beerus even beyond 10x that.

Basically it's silly to try to scale the entirety of Super off this single feat as it makes the story completely incoherent and should not be taken account in and real comparison for the same reasons Roshis moon feat isn't a consideration. Feats are often strictly for narrative purposes while things like multipliers exist as mechanisms for points of comparison. They hold two different narrative purposes.

[Saiyan007]

It's not silly to scale Super off that universal feat because

1.they dedicated an entire episode towards it,the episode is litteraly called the universe crumbles

2.numerous characters and the narrator himself mention how powerful these guys are

But All it means in the end is super is just more powerful than GT

As crazy as Trunks boost is all that means he's another guy who beats GT as well....

It doesn't matter what the multiplier it takes to pull the things these Gods do but what is made clear is that GT characters cannot do the same and that's all the proof that needs to be shown why Freeza mops the floor with any GT character.

[TheMikado]

It's not silly to scale Super off that universal feat because

1.they dedicated an entire episode towards it,the episode is litteraly called the universe crumbles

2.numerous characters and the narrator himself mention how powerful these guys are

But All it means in the end is super is just more powerful than GT

As crazy as Trunks boost is all that means he's another guy who beats GT as well....

It doesn't matter what the multiplier it takes to pull the things these Gods do but what is made clear is that GT characters cannot do the same and that's all the proof that needs to be shown why Freeza mops the floor with any GT character.

That's fine, I will concede to your point if you concede that in comparison to its literary peers, predecessors, and contemporaries Super's character progression is absolutely abysmal at best. Never before in the history of the entire franchise and probably of any media I've ever witnessed has such dramatic and impossible gains been made without the use of a plot device or mechanism unless you want to call the plot point of trying really hard and training that plot device... This is beyond poor writing, for reference if Batman appears in a new arc and was suddenly as strong as Superman Prime and his response is was that he tried really hard and hit the gym the fan base with have pitch forks and the writers immediately terminated. So yes, if you insist on using the universe feat as your measuring stick then you also have to accept it as one of the single greatest @$$ pulls in the history of media and storytelling ever.

Or you can do what most other people do and assume it was almost entirely for dramatic effect and carries no real weight. Your call.

[Saiyan007]

Super is stronger based on feats that's the point how they get to that point is not my concern.


You may as well concede because you acknowledge how strong they are you just don't like how they got to that point.

[TheMikado]

Super is stronger based on feats that's the point how they get to that point is not my concern.


You may as well concede because you acknowledge how strong they are you just don't like how they got to that point.

Considering the "how" they got stronger was a HUGE part of Z, I would say YES I don't like it. Z wasn't all about " da battles yeah!" It was about the journey to overcome the adversity they experienced. Most of the arcs spent 50-70% of its time showing "how" characters achieved new heights.

When getting even the x2 boost of SSJ2 was a tremendous struggle for 4 SSJs and now Trunks walks up and is now Trillions upon Trillions of times stronger with no meaningful development, yeah that's a HUGE problem.
And it retroactively trivializes all their gains and struggles in previous arcs as if they could have had this power all along by training a little harder...

I've already conceded that if you want to strictly scale based on the ridiculous Super universe feats then you are going to end up with infinite numbers that cannot be topped. But If you want to have a well thought out and analyzed discussion based on comparible points between the series on story material actually designed and provided for it's actual use of comparison purposes then I'm all ears.

[Saiyan007]

Considering the "how" they got stronger was a HUGE part of Z, I would say YES I don't like it. Z wasn't all about " da battles yeah!" It was about the journey to overcome the adversity they experienced. Most of the arcs spent 50-70% of its time showing "how" characters achieved new heights.

Again how they got thier isn't the point of this fight it's who would win not how did they get there?

When getting even the x2 boost of SSJ2 was a tremendous struggle for 4 SSJs and now Trunks walks up and is now Trillions upon Trillions of times stronger with no meaningful development, yeah that's a HUGE problem.

It's s huge problem for people who make it thier problem in the first place

And it retroactively trivializes all their gains and struggles in previous arcs as if they could have had this power all along by training a little harder...

I guess GT characters should've tried a bit harder as well



So basically what I'm seeing is

1.You acknowledge Freeza wins because he's superior in almost every way due to feats and statements

2.You don't like how little training it takes to get to that universal level

Sad to say only the first one counts because the discussion is Freeza against GT fighters.Not how do Super characters make crazy gains with little training?