Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

but considering the fact Piccolo, a worthless shit tier is still above them in Base, that makes them being AS strong as SSGod highly doubtful.

I don't think Piccolo is as strong as their Base forms. Then again that's something I've gone over so many times already.

I don't think he's as strong as SSJG in base if we're going to assume SS is still an x50 multiplier. Considering the fact Goku doesn't lose a step when he fights Beerus after reverting and Vegeta (apparently) says SS Goku is potentially STRONGER than his SSJG self against Beerus means that he's logically stronger as an SS2 & SS3 than God as well.

And like I said in the post above that's where it gets complicated. The F manga implied that Base was as strong as SSJG and the description for Super Saiyan Blue also implies that.

*Goku: "Actually, that's not quite right. It's a little complicated and hard to explain, but... This is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan."

Significance: After absorbing SSG into his base form in the Battle of Gods arc, Goku transforms into what he describes as the "Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan who has the power of Super Saiyan God"*

Meanwhile Base Goku destroying Beerus' blast with a punch, surviving unrestrained Hits from Beerus and putting up a decent fight against in the Monaka costume would also imply that.

But then you've got the Super Saiyan forms involved and the multipliers are still in place but Beerus is still much stronger than them all so Beerus is hundreds of times stronger than Base Goku easily. So how is Base Goku surviving any attack from Beerus? If SSJG was as strong as Base then why was Beerus so excited over fighting it?

Things just don't piece together at all.

[TheMikado]

I keep saying this but I think that the original direction in the movies was that he absorbed it, but when they realized they would have to make an ongoing serialized version where they are now 100s x stronger then universe punch level, someon quickly realized they had written themselves in a narrative corner and only some people got the memo. I feel like the manga is the at least the most logical and consistent interpretation of the serialized format that exists. Trying to make statements still true that were made prior to the actual production of Super should be abandoned just like the 6-10-15 scale.

The manga has the advantage of being made in near realtime with whatever current information is presented and isn't being based in a one off movie script to develop long time serialized consistency.

[HeroR]

Well going by everything I remember from multiple versions.

Battle of Gods

- The Base Goku that fights Beerus shows to be more durable than Rageta but he only gets one blow in on Beerus by surprise. He clearly powers up when he turns Super Saiyan and Beerus says he'd absorbed the power though he struggles against Beerus' blast which Super Saiyan God then destroys...somehow.

DB Heroes

- Saiyan Beyond God (Base) gives out more power than Super Saiyan 3 but less power than Super Saiyan God.

Resurrection F manga

- Base Goku is shown with an image of Super Saiyan God Goku behind it implying he has that power in his Base form.

Resurrection F

- Goku: "Actually, that's not quite right. It's a little complicated and hard to explain, but... This is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan."

Toriyama

- "Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God."

- "After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength". Implying that Super Saiyan still increases his strenght. Of course both these comments were made before he thought up RoF.

Super manga

- Obviously all the forms are weaker than Super Saiyan God minus Blue.

Super anime

- Once again Beerus says to Goku while he's a Super Saiyan that he's absorbed the power and not got any weaker because if it. Base Goku somehow destroys Beerus' blast that SSJ Goku was struggling with.

- On the day Goku arrived on Beerus' planet before the many months of training Whis said they can get stronger as Super Saiyans and they were on the low end of the God...level?

- Once again when describing Blue, Goku says it's a Saiyan with the power of a God as a Super Saiyan which would imply he had Super Saiyan God power in Base.

- He's shown to be able to turn into a Super Saiyan anyway which shouldn't be contradictory and this still makes him tens of times stronger.

- He fights Beerus in Base and he's able to withstand the punches and fight back. He's also shown to be stronger than Gotenks.

- Super Saiyan 2 Goku was compared to a God of Destruction.

Conclusion

It's confusing. Battle of Gods, Toriyama, Whis and Zamasu's comments are all consistent with Super Saiyan being stronger than Base.

Goku absorbed God power and made it his own. The F manga and the description for what Blue is makes it appear as though his Base form was now as strong as God form. That he's able to take unrestrained attacks from Beerus and he's stronger than Gotenks and Frieza and he's able to fight a hampered Beerus would seem consistent with that.

The main problem with that is how the Super Saiyan multipliers still seem to be in place. It'd mean SSJ Goku would be 50x as strong as SSJG and SSJB would be hundreds of times as strong as SSJG and I don't believe Beerus would get that excited over fighting someone less than 1% of his power.

You have to remember that the multipliers for Super Saiyan are technically not official. At least to Toriyama, since he thought 50x for Super Saiyan was too big and it was closer to 10x, which makes little sense since the Kaio-Ken x20 didn't dent 50% Freeza. So when Toriyama made Super Saiyan God = base form, he probably wasn't thinking about the 50x multiplier of a regular Super Saiyan.

[Bullza]

I don't know what happened. Things were fine before Super Saiyan was reintroduced in the Tournament.

Goku went from God to Super Saiyan, wasn't any weaker because he'd absorbed it, Base wasn't significantly weaker like in the movie because he destroyed the blast. At that point he was strong enough to take small unrestrained attacks without dying. Whis said he was at the low end of God levels. So him being as strong as Super Saiyan God at that point with his Super Saiyan form being what amounts to Super Saiyan Blue all made enough sense.

At that point it seemed as though Beerus was just a few times stronger than Base Goku if that.

Then the Super Saiyan forms came back into it and it's messed it up now by stretching the gap between Base Goku and Beerus to make him hundreds of times stronger so now it no longer makes sense why he was able to do some of the things he did.

Yet that still didn't stop them having that Base Goku vs Monaka fight afterward which certainly didn't make it seem as though Beerus was hundreds of times stronger but perhaps just a few times stronger like before.

[HeroR]

I don't know what happened. Things were fine before Super Saiyan was reintroduced in the Tournament.

Goku went from God to Super Saiyan, wasn't any weaker because he'd absorbed it, Base wasn't significantly weaker like in the movie because he destroyed the blast. At that point he was strong enough to take small unrestrained attacks without dying. Whis said he was at the low end of God levels. So him being as strong as Super Saiyan God at that point with his Super Saiyan form being what amounts to Super Saiyan Blue all made enough sense.

At that point it seemed as though Beerus was just a few times stronger than Base Goku if that.

Then the Super Saiyan forms came back into it and it's messed it up now by stretching the gap between Base Goku and Beerus to make him hundreds of times stronger so now it no longer makes sense why he was able to do some of the things he did.

Yet that still didn't stop them having that Base Goku vs Monaka fight afterward which certainly didn't make it seem as though Beerus was hundreds of times stronger but perhaps just a few times stronger like before.

Goku fought Beerus as a normal Super Saiyan after absorbing godhood. So, Goku never lost access to his normal Super Saiyan form. He just can upgrade the normal Super Saiyan with god ki if he desired it. The problem came when people assumed that Goku becoming a regular Super Saiyan was retcon to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan after Resurrection 'F', despite the retelling keeping the gold haired form even after Goku lost his god power. Until the tournament, fans just assumed that the gold haired Super Saiyans were gone.

[Bullza]

I know it was still possible for him to become one due to Toriyama and Whis saying so. At that time though Super Saiyan didn't seem that much stronger than Base form if ihe movie and anime were anything to go by.

But no it turned out that it still makes him 50x stronger (tens of times stronger if you just want to go by the show).

If Beerus is supposed to be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue and that makes Goku's hundreds of times stronger then Base Goku has no business doing what he's done.

Also I don't see what adding God Ki to his Super Saiyan does for his power. He didn't have God Ki when SSJ Goku fought Beerus so that doesn't seem to matter.

[HeroR]

I know it was still possible for him to become one due to Toriyama and Whis saying so. At that time though Super Saiyan didn't seem that much stronger than Base form if ihe movie and anime were anything to go by.

But no it turned out that it still makes him 50x stronger (tens of times stronger if you just want to go by the show).

If Beerus is supposed to be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue and that makes Goku's hundreds of times stronger then Base Goku has no business doing what he's done.

Also I don't see what adding God Ki to his Super Saiyan does for his power. He didn't have God Ki when SSJ Goku fought Beerus so that doesn't seem to matter.

Adding god ki to his normal Super Saiyan form obviously makes Super Saiyan stronger. So much so that it surpasses Super Saiyan 2 and 3, and is even more energy efficient, at least in the anime.

Also, in the anime, Beerus never said how much of his full power he was using, other than the lie about being at 100%. Even in the movie, Beerus admitted that Super Saiyan God Goku wasn't much of a fight. What impressed Beerus was Goku's spirit, willingness to throw away his pride, and absorbing godhood into his being. The anime also added Goku surpassing the limits of Super Saiyan God after Beerus thought he knocked Goku out several times.

[TheMikado]

If I'm hearing Bullza correctly, the trouble is base and SSB prior to the tournament seemed to be a smaller gap between Beerus and SSB, maybe almost half as powerful as full power Beerus. Then you have the whole base vs Monaka Beerus issue, SSB x 10 etc, Copy Vegeta, plus the SSJ3 form.
basically if SSJ3 Is x400 base, and SSB is above that maybe x500 and then x10 KK isn't even surpassing Beerus at x5000, how did X1 base put up any kind of fight against Beerus?? Further if base is at least SSG level, why so weak against Beerus and where 0.005% of Beerus full power why Rageta fights at a full close to 10% level.

So we go from around 50% Beerus to 0.005% Beerus with no real explanation.

[HeroR]

If I'm hearing Bullza correctly, the trouble is base and SSB prior to the tournament seemed to be a smaller gap between Beerus and SSB, maybe almost half as powerful as full power Beerus. Then you have the whole base vs Monaka Beerus issue, SSB x 10 etc, Copy Vegeta, plus the SSJ3 form.
basically if SSJ3 Is x400 base, and SSB is above that maybe x500 and then x10 KK isn't even surpassing Beerus at x5000, how did X1 base put up any kind of fight against Beerus?? Further if base is at least SSG level, why so weak against Beerus and where 0.005% of Beerus full power why Rageta fights at a full close to 10% level.

So we go from around 50% Beerus to 0.005% Beerus with no real explanation.

The only thing we know about Beerus' power is that until Toriyama says otherwise, Goku and Vegeta are weaker than him. Since the anime never put a number to his power when he fought Super Saiyan God Goku, we don't know how much he was holding back. The only thing we have is that 10% line for rage Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, and even that was overkill since Beerus took no damaged and slapped Vegeta out of Super Saiyan form.

[Bullza]

Adding god ki to his normal Super Saiyan form obviously makes Super Saiyan stronger.

Isn't the God Ki just a factor in them being able to be sensed or not? Super Saiyan was as strong as Super Saiyan God though it didn't have God Ki.

If I'm hearing Bullza correctly, the trouble is base and SSB prior to the tournament seemed to be a smaller gap between Beerus and SSB, maybe almost half as powerful as full power Beerus.

Yeah if Beerus is supposed to be hundreds of times stronger than Goku then he has no business whatsoever

1. Punching apart Beerus' energy sphere that Super Saiyan Goku (who was as strong as God) was struggling against.

2. Remaining alive, let alone conscious after taking three unrestrained attacks from Beerus.

3. Having that fight with "Monaka". Yeah the suit restricted him because he couldn't concentrate fully and his head piece was swivelling around but Beerus punched Goku in the face and he came back for more. The suit isn't going to make his punches hundreds of times weaker.

Also now that I think about it, being as how Super has been trying to fix some of the mistakes that were made in the movies already, I sorta wonder if Base Goku destroying Beerus' blast was supposed to stand in place for where SSJG Goku destroyed it in the movie which never made much sense as they'd just said he'd absorbed it. So perhaps that was also to get the point across that Base Goku was now as strong as SSJG Goku.

[HeroR]

Adding god ki to his normal Super Saiyan form obviously makes Super Saiyan stronger.

Isn't the God Ki just a factor in them being able to be sensed or not? Super Saiyan was as strong as Super Saiyan God though it didn't have God Ki.

If I'm hearing Bullza correctly, the trouble is base and SSB prior to the tournament seemed to be a smaller gap between Beerus and SSB, maybe almost half as powerful as full power Beerus.

Yeah if Beerus is supposed to be hundreds of times stronger than Goku then he has no business whatsoever

1. Punching apart Beerus' energy sphere that Super Saiyan Goku (who was as strong as God) was struggling against.

2. Remaining alive, let alone conscious after taking three unrestrained attacks from Beerus.

3. Having that fight with "Monaka". Yeah the suit restricted him because he couldn't concentrate fully and his head piece was swivelling around but Beerus punched Goku in the face and he came back for more. The suit isn't going to make his punches hundreds of times weaker.

Also now that I think about it, being as how Super has been trying to fix some of the mistakes that were made in the movies already, I sorta wonder if Base Goku destroying Beerus' blast was supposed to stand in place for where SSJG Goku destroyed it in the movie which never made much sense as they'd just said he'd absorbed it. So perhaps that was also to get the point across that Base Goku was now as strong as SSJG Goku.

God energy obviously makes things stronger. By Goku just having a taste of godhood, it took his base form from being weaker than Freeza, according to Beerus, to taking hits form Beerus. Being able to merged that force with Super Saiyan would create an extremely powerful transformation that surpasses Super Saiyan God.

We know Goku's base got stronger and, according to Whis and Beerus, he surpassed his limits. By the end, Beerus really didn't want to kill Goku anymore and he toned down his attacks. Goku just surprised him with the amount of willpower he showed, especially when Beerus told him that he had limits. Goku taking unrestrained from Beerus and living is not too surprising when you considered that 50% Freeza didn't instantly kill Goku. Yeah, Freeza was trying to keep Goku alive so he can suffering longer, but with Goku being only at 3 million compared to Freeza's 60 million, Goku should have been dead even with a weak punch. Or at the very least, crippled to the point of barely moving. The same with Piccolo surviving punches from Freeza while stalling for the Spirit Bomb. And unlike Goku, Freeza was trying to kill and disable Piccolo.

[ssbgoku]

Outside of all power consistency or story universe logic consistency. I can see easily Toei brining back Super Saiyan god form once Either Akira tell him specifically to do it or it will get very popular and liked in the manga increasing greatly sales or both.

Why would Akira do that ?, Simply to get more money and fans being happy to see ssg in action and treated as transformation. Nothing more or less.

How it could be done by Toei, if it was not used for such long time:

1) NO explanation at all-> possible but unlikely
2) Goku prefering blue form over red one

Also explanation would be sort of: "This is Super Saiyan god the supperior transformation to all no divine ki transformations only second to super Saiyan blue"

Sure there would be uproar among analyzing fans but would you thnk Toei or Akira care for them ?, No, as long as kids and most of audience is content with it for sake of enjoyment and cool looking transformations. It was same deal with ss2 and ss3 which were supposed to be obsolette.

[TheMikado]

So new manga basically shows Trunks going SSJ2 for the first time against Dabura and obviously not much stronger than SPC. With Black already on the scene and watching, everyone already dead, the Z sword broken, it's unlikely he had the time or means to "train" himself into God Tier. I think this pretty much confirms Trunks is NOT God Tier and Z Buu levels at best in the manga.

[Bullza]

God energy obviously makes things stronger. By Goku just having a taste of godhood, it took his base form from being weaker than Freeza, according to Beerus, to taking hits form Beerus. Being able to merged that force with Super Saiyan would create an extremely powerful transformation that surpasses Super Saiyan God.

In the show Super Saiyan God had God level power and God Ki so he couldn't be sensed. When his time ran out and he went back to Super Saiyan he kept that God power but lost the God Ki, he was as strong but now people could sense him again.

After that his Super Saiyan was supposed to have all the God power. So what's different about Super Saiyan Blue other than it has God Ki which means it can't be sensed. If Super Saiyan Blue is Goku with the power of a God turning Super Saiyan...then isn't that the same as regular Super Saiyan?

So new manga basically shows Trunks going SSJ2 for the first time against Dabura and obviously not much stronger than SPC. With Black already on the scene and watching, everyone already dead, the Z sword broken, it's unlikely he had the time or means to "train" himself into God Tier. I think this pretty much confirms Trunks is NOT God Tier and Z Buu levels at best.

Well in the chapter they said Black showed up a little while after and he was supposed to have been around for a year before Trunks travelled into the past so he'd have had slightly over a year to get stronger. Is the SSJ2 Trunks in this chapter that one shots Dabura supposed to be the equivalent of the SSJ2 Trunks that fought Goku at first and he said he was stronger than Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan? That'd make sense.

So what then is up with his full power strength being equal to Black saga SSJ3 Goku? Could he have learned how to become a Mastered SSJ2 in the year since he learned it? He was able to push Black back with his power though we don't know strong he is yet but you'd think he wouldn't be Buu levels.

Edit: Actually the battle with Dabura was several years ago for Trunks so he had a good amount of time to train and get stronger.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, as far as I'm aware, we don't know specifically how many years passed for Trunks between each event here. He could have trained on his own for a few years and only made minimal progress. Then he'd get a decent increase from training with the Z-Sword under Kaioshin, though since he still struggled against Dabra as an SS1, he evidently wasn't caught up to Gohan yet. But after attaining Super Saiyan 2 during that whole fiasco, it's possible things really opened up for him and he was able to make substantial progress again by training for those "several years" in this new form.

[Bullza]

The scans are out now. Does the chapter confirm that Dabura really was more comparable to Super Perfect Cell after all?

Considering the ease with which Base Trunks was swinging around the Z Sword that should make comparable to what Base Gohan did after training with the sword. Both were seemingly above Buu saga Base Goku at that point.

But Super Saiyan Trunks seems to be having more trouble with Dabura than what Gohan had with him before he trained with the sword.

So it should be something like this right?

SSJ2 Gohan/Trunks after Z Sword training > SSJ2 Goku > SSJ2 Gohan before Z Sword training = Dabura > SSJ Gohan/Trunks after Z Sword training > SSJ Goku > SSJ Gohan before Z Sword training

Also Zamasu does easily overwhelm Kibito but there were a couple parts where it wasn't that one sided. Considering Kibito was weaker than Base Gohan, it does look like he's weaker than than his anime counterpart.

[TheMikado]

Well Zamasu is waaaaay weaker in the manga since Super anime has him at God Tier levels.

[ekrolo2]

Here's how I see these new developments working:

Cell Games:

Future Trunks - 30 million (Base)
- 1.5 billion (SS)

Other Cell Games fighters for reference sakes:

Vegeta - 1.6 billion (SS)

Goku - 2.5 billion (SS)

Gohan - 3.5 billion (SS)
- 8.5 billion (SS2 + Rage Boost)

Cell - 4.5 billion (Full-Power)
- 8.4 (SPC)

Post-Z-sword and 3-4 years of individual training:

Future Trunks - 80 million (Base)
- 4 billion (SS)
- 8 billion (SS2)

Dabra - 4.5 billion


Boo Saga Gohan for reference sake:

Gohan - 60 million (Base)
- 3 billion (SS, versus Dabra)
- 6 billion (SS2)

[ekrolo2]

I don't think he's as strong as SSJG in base if we're going to assume SS is still an x50 multiplier. Considering the fact Goku doesn't lose a step when he fights Beerus after reverting and Vegeta (apparently) says SS Goku is potentially STRONGER than his SSJG self against Beerus means that he's logically stronger as an SS2 & SS3 than God as well.

And like I said in the post above that's where it gets complicated. The F manga implied that Base was as strong as SSJG and the description for Super Saiyan Blue also implies that.

*Goku: "Actually, that's not quite right. It's a little complicated and hard to explain, but... This is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan."

Significance: After absorbing SSG into his base form in the Battle of Gods arc, Goku transforms into what he describes as the "Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan who has the power of Super Saiyan God"*

Meanwhile Base Goku destroying Beerus' blast with a punch, surviving unrestrained Hits from Beerus and putting up a decent fight against in the Monaka costume would also imply that.

But then you've got the Super Saiyan forms involved and the multipliers are still in place but Beerus is still much stronger than them all so Beerus is hundreds of times stronger than Base Goku easily. So how is Base Goku surviving any attack from Beerus? If SSJG was as strong as Base then why was Beerus so excited over fighting it?

Things just don't piece together at all.

I think he probably has a lot of SSGs power in Base as it's a big multiplier but he can only equal that power once he goes SS. Let's say that SSG is a 100 000 times Base increase, once we do the math, Goku's base form becomes around 2000 times stronger than it once was but only gets back to 100 000 times stronger once you add in SS1.

This is all for the anime of course, the manga just treats Blue and God as more transformations they can use that happen to be stronger than the old ones instead of how the anime & movie has the weird and convoluted absorption thing.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Supressed SS2 Trunks against Goku was supposed to be at the same level he was when he achieved SS2...

Says who? There's nothing so specific said in either chapter 15 or episode 49. Goku doesn't even compare Trunks to Gohan in the anime version. It seems Toei and Toyotaro have each embellished this stuff in their own ways, while Toriyama's outline probably just said broad things like "Goku spars with Trunks and is impressed by his strength" and "Trunks defeated Dabra in his timeline with Super Saiyan 2."

Either way, again, there's at least several years between when Trunks beat Dabra and when he traveled to the past again. Meaning there's plenty of time for him to go from about as strong as Boo-arc Gohan (struggling with Dabra at SS1) to significantly stronger than Cell Games Gohan (being somewhat stronger than post-Boo Goku in equal forms).

Anyway, any further discussion about this specific stuff should probably be taken over to the Super Power Levels thread. This is supposed to be general discussion about the manga.

Trunks wasn't randomly holding back against Goku. He first showed him the power he had when he first achieved SS2, and after explaining to him that he wasn't satisfied with that power, he powered up to full power, which was almost as great as SS3 Goku's, showing him the power he obtained through even further training.

Also, we know how much time passed. Babidi appeared one year after Trunks returned to the future after the Cell Games, and eleven years later Trunks went to the present in order to ask help to beat Black, since Babidi said that he was gathering energy for ten years. In the present world, it took him a single day, so it should be ten years from that time in the future world.