"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[SSJ Human]

Is it just me or did this chapter come out quicker than the others?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Is it just me or did this chapter come out quicker than the others?

The leaks actually came out a few days later than usual.

[TheMikado]

Kaioshin said Zamasu was the strongest Kaioshin and he's weaker than SS2 Goku. Kaioshin himself is weaker than SS1.

Well, but there's a difference in power between SSJ2 Goku (Boo Arc) and actual SSJ2 Goku in this arc, Universe 7 Kaioshin resisted Boo's rampage for quite a while before most of them being absorbed, we could say they are even stronger



Thoughts about the chapter:

- I liked how they did the Boo Arc in Mirai Trunks timeline, really enjoyed that he trained in Kaioshin Realm, it makes more plausible that he's so strong now, I guess

- Still don't like those anime/manga differences, but I can deal it

- Zamasu being influenced by East Kaioshin is way better than a sparring match with Goku, I kinda tired that villains come up all by Goku's actions.

Why don't you like the differences? It gives an actual reason to own both. I wish that DB and DBZ would have taken more liberties.

More differences means more "canon" talk where discussion isn't even possible because things are dismissed as soon as they are referenced.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Well, but there's a difference in power between SSJ2 Goku (Boo Arc) and actual SSJ2 Goku in this arc, Universe 7 Kaioshin resisted Boo's rampage for quite a while before most of them being absorbed, we could say they are even stronger



Thoughts about the chapter:

- I liked how they did the Boo Arc in Mirai Trunks timeline, really enjoyed that he trained in Kaioshin Realm, it makes more plausible that he's so strong now, I guess

- Still don't like those anime/manga differences, but I can deal it

- Zamasu being influenced by East Kaioshin is way better than a sparring match with Goku, I kinda tired that villains come up all by Goku's actions.

Why don't you like the differences? It gives an actual reason to own both. I wish that DB and DBZ would have taken more liberties.

More differences means more "canon" talk where discussion isn't even possible because things are dismissed as soon as they are referenced.

I don't pay any mind to canon talk anyway. Having 2 versions gives interesting new takes on each story, if someone cares so much as to dismiss one based on canon, I would refuse to associate with them in the context of the DB fandom.

[ssj_duelist]

So the manga won't have a time paradox?

Yeah, it's much better written.

Not so true, depends how things play out. I assume you're thinking that Zamasu travels to Trunks' world and stays there with/creates Black?

[jplaya2023]

did anyone else notice trunks used the same kick vs dabura as a ssj2 that vegeta used against goku when they fought as ssj2's.

Bravo toto

[TheDevilsCorpse]

So the manga won't have a time paradox?

Yeah, it's much better written.

Not so true, depends how things play out. I assume you're thinking that Zamasu travels to Trunks' world and stays there with/creates Black?

Things could still unravel into a paradox, but the manga is doing a good job at avoiding painting that picture for now:

The biggest problem was by far the fact that the anime presents a presumed causal loop of Trunks coming to the past for help with Black causing Goku to go to Universe 10 and trigger Zamasu's future actions, which shouldn't happen since Goku wasn't on the path for that interaction before Trunks' arrival and thus Trunks' timeline shouldn't be under threat from Black if present Zamasu is the origin of this mess. However, the manga has Zamasu learn about Goku and his strength that surpasses gods from Universe 7's Kaioshin. The impetus is set to spark his descent with or without Future Trunks arrival.

The suggestion this chapter that Black is not native to Trunks' timeline, since he was happy to find a world without Beerus, is another potential key point. But it's less important than the above until more information is revealed.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Yeah when you put it like that makes sense. But to make sense of the anime version what if Zamasu and Goku were already on a path but Trunks caused this path to happen sooner? Like how Trunks showing up still didn't prevent Goku from having the heart virus but the outcome was changed like in this instance Goku and Zamasu do meet but happens differently? I'm just gonna stick with that.

Definitely see the pros of working on this monthly!

[TheMikado]

So the manga won't have a time paradox?

Yeah, it's much better written.

Not so true, depends how things play out. I assume you're thinking that Zamasu travels to Trunks' world and stays there with/creates Black?

I will preface this by saying that the arc is not over so we do not know for sure yet but...
The scene which created the casual loop in the first place and gave Black SSR does not seem to exist.
Instead it appears that Present Zamasu, left to his own devices, would eventually become involved with Black in Trunks Future and timeline and he would have specific reasons for it as well independently which do not involved having Trunks and Black to come back to the past in the first place.

Thereby nullifying the possibility of a casual loop and preserving Toriyama's original rules of time travel. The anime version instead, lazily seems to make the reasons relate to them showing up in the past in the first place, thereby creating a casual loop and contradicting Toriyama's time travel rules.

In my opinion a few things happened production wise.
1) The outline gives little or no detail on how it should play out.
2) The Toei outline is outdated and Toyable is working off newer material that makes sense
3) Toyable went off outline.

In either case the story is more coherent and uses existing known Dragonball world building tools.

[LightBing]

Another few interesting lines from this chapter:

Zamasu: “I really admire you two. I heard how you handled Majin Boo a few years ago.”
Kaioshin: “No, we didn’t do it alone. And besides, actions like that are supposed to be a God of Destruction’s role.”
Kibito: “But our universe’s God of Destruction is always sleeping, so…”


It seems Beerus should have handled Boo and did nothing in both times Boo was active, because he's such a sleepy kitty...

[BWri]

Ok, a couple of points but first I want to say the manga is simply incredible. I haven't felt this way about the series in a long time. The pacing is fantastic and it goes the typical Z route of training-build up - still not good enough - win by the skin of your teeth. Love it, the tension in the Trunks fight, even though we already know the outcome is superb and I prefer this model versus the anime, which seems to try to get in as many "battles" and sparring as possible while skipping back story and sometime logic.

Well said. That's been my problem with Super. It's just so stripped down when it comes to logic and pacing, so it just speeds through its plot bulletpoints and parodoxically pads out the things we already understand. It's feels so good to get something more fleshed out like this chapter was. That's the thing that upset me the most about the show, was the missed opportunity to further expand on ideas introduced in the movies or even the show itself. Now I think it would have been amazing for Toyotaro to actually do both BoG and RoF with more depth, but its asking too much.

1) This seems to give a different origin story for Zamasu/Black. In this manga version Zamasu is aware of Goku because he was told about him via Kaioshin. Thus if present Zamasu became black or created Black, there would be no casual loop and thus no contradiction to Toriyama's idea of timelines.

IKR. There's a chance they might still meet, but if both Gods had met in a similar fashion before then it makes way more sense this way.

2) Gowasu is already suspicious of Zamasu and I'm sure Kaioshin as well. It seems like the way it leads is that Beerus will ask the Kaioshin he is linked to, who in turn mentions one of his peers has a subordinate he is suspicious of. I like this much better than Beerus/Whis having knowledge or and able to link specifically to Zamasu, a subordinate Kai of another universe. It also makes them skipping over talking to that universe's God of Destruction make more sense and its primary an issue between Kaioshin and their subordinates.

Whis is the "plot solving guy" and all, but it does get ridiculous when he instantly figures out who's behind all this interdimensional stuff with just a vague mention of events in the future.

5) Black is around back then! Awesome and makes Black appear much more methodical in his motives and execution.

I prefer this interpretation. It's like he's cultivating something in Trunks, maybe his last bit of fun...idk[/quote]

6) Killing the Gods of Destruction means this guy is serious business, thus when we go into the next fights we recognize the stakes, and that Trunks being as awesome as he is, is once again the lone savior of the Future. Goku even acknowledges his life is tough.

It makes things so bleak. I was hoping someone would eventually get Trunks to Namek to restore everything. Manga Black is a lot scarier than anime Black so far, though I'm sure anime Black has the same kill tally without his god killing being revealed yet.

Trunk's clothes are just excellent.

I love that Kai look, and the plain ol' black beater too. He and Gohan are great counterparts. I kinda want this Trunks to stick around so that Gohan has a bro around that's his age.

9) Power levels make sense and correlate to Buu saga, meaning in the manga Trunks was outclassed and survived by going SSJ2 after a death, much like making it to SSJ1. I think Vegeta and the kids are the only ones who didn't get new SSJ levels through a death. It's sad that the only way Trunks reaches these heights are by people dying...

The levels do make sense and even correlate to the Cell saga. Trunks has potential, but was definitely far behind Gohan. Makes sense he'd get his gains a little later and he accessed them brilliantly. Trunks seems to thrive when all seems absolutely hopeless and he loses someone. That desperation makes him slightly different from Gohan, who is a pacifist that loves all life. Gohan's big trigger being when a helpless android was crushed.

10) The backstory, plots, and world feel excellent and full. There's no rush to get to the fights and we had a satisfying battle with real meaning and consequences to it. It's so jarring watching the fight here which should be much lower stakes, but they prepare so much and its still not enough. Then the anime Zamasu/Black fight where they do almost no prep, no sensu beans, and they still make it back without any real consequence... Anyway I LOVE LOVE LOVE the manga. Just excellently done so far from what I can tell...

Anime Trunks should've been like 1000x more angry that Goku did something as stupid as forget the Senzu beans in the past. Trunks whole future depends on his victory over Black and that's when the tones of the show drastically clash. Trunks is in a whole other show entirely, where consequences are real.

Side note: This actually makes me angry in regards to the Super anime, seeing what just a little bit more thought and care could produce with similar storypoints. While I'm on that topic, the storyline is different enough that I can't imagine the outline was that detailed to how it got to certain points, particularly how Zamasu is introduced and aware of Goku. At this point we aren't sure if Black will even pop up into the present or not at all.

That first point gets to the heart of my frustrations with the anime. They've made something that some of us can enjoy, but with a little more care, thought, and effort they could've made something that we ALL loved. But at least it's getting there. I'd like them to go on hiatus, let the manga take over and then follow that. That would be ideal.

[TheMikado]

Yeah when you put it like that makes sense. But to make sense of the anime version what if Zamasu and Goku were already on a path but Trunks caused this path to happen sooner? Like how Trunks showing up still didn't prevent Goku from having the heart virus but the outcome was changed like in this instance Goku and Zamasu do meet but happens differently? I'm just gonna stick with that.

Definitely see the pros of working on this monthly!

The problem becomes why specifically is Goku, body or whatever it is? Specifically involved if Zamasu would have done this independently.
The key point becomes Zamasu's knowledge of Goku and whatever Black end's up being.

[Xeztin]

I think next chapter we'll have both Goku vs Black 1 and Goku vs Black 2 up to the SSR transformation or Vegeta getting impaled. I really wish Toyotaro had done the RoF arc, it seems so incomplete without it

[mikey4111]

How come the other universes don't have multiple kaioshins like universe 7 before Buu killed them off? There was only 1 at the tournament with his attendent. I bet they ignore that because that'll be a lot for Black to kill in each universe.

[BWri]

The first, why didn't Black kill Trunks when he clearly had the chance? Trunks was weak from fighting Dabura and he had the chance to wiped out a future threat. So, why didn't he? This seems to go against Black's character as a pragmatic. I also don't see why he didn't attack the Earth while he was there, but I guess this could be justified by him killing Kais.

Toyotaro did a lot to play with perspective in this chapter, so while it seems like Black was standing right there, he might not have been. In that flashback, Black is talking to himself...so how would Trunks have known that he said that? He would have had to encounter Black moments later, or that is merely a visual representation of his explanation.

I'm pretty sure he was there, the way it was drawn definitely depicted him as literally being there. He also seems to have chosen the HoT timeline specifically because of it's lack of Godly Protectors.

Yeah, this makes the most sense. I had come around to believing that about a month ago (since nothing else made sense for why they be in that timeline).

[Hellspawn28]

How is Goku said to be living on Earth by Future Kaioshin and Kibito if Goku is dead in Trunks timeline?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

How is Goku said to be living on Earth by Future Kaioshin and Kibito if Goku is dead in Trunks timeline?

It wasn't, the Kaioshin gathering happened in the present timeline.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

How come the other universes don't have multiple kaioshins like universe 7 before Buu killed them off? There was only 1 at the tournament with his attendent. I bet they ignore that because that'll be a lot for Black to kill in each universe.

Do you want the real reason?

[spoiler]Toriyama forgot.[/spoiler]

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Yeah when you put it like that makes sense. But to make sense of the anime version what if Zamasu and Goku were already on a path but Trunks caused this path to happen sooner? Like how Trunks showing up still didn't prevent Goku from having the heart virus but the outcome was changed like in this instance Goku and Zamasu do meet but happens differently? I'm just gonna stick with that.

Definitely see the pros of working on this monthly!

That's why I said a presumed causal loop. It's entirely possible that Zamasu could have met with Goku at Zeno's tournament or something, and that would have eventually triggered his actions. But then you're really adding in a lot more factors to consider, and the problem could become, as TheMikado suggested, why does Goku specifically trigger this path under those circumstances? I guess things would be fine if Goku wins Zeno's tournament in this theoretical situation, but that tournament is bound to be filled with mortals from each universe that could be stronger than some of the gods.

[Speedster]

Not sure if it has been discussed before but in the full translation of chapter 15 I read, in page 35, Trunks said it has been 10 years (strongly implying since Gohan’s SSJ2 transformation/since he travelled to the main timeline last time). Now since Trunks returned to Age 785, that places the current events in the future in Age 795. Then minus 17 years and, presto, we go to Age 778 in the present. So eventually we have a timeline for Super!

Cue to the person who will now tell me that it was a mistranslation…