Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[buutenks]

So anime, makes u think allot of chars are above ssg, tho perhaps it is not so.

I still think that, we should only put characters above ssg in the anime, if they are at ssj blue level or above or close to it. Like Black Rose for example. Zamasu, ssj2 Trunks etc are below it.

Trunks is unable to sense god ki to begin with, plus when Goku went ssj2 vs Zamasu, Zamasu wasnt shocked by the power he was sensing. Gowasu only became shocked when Beerus told him that Goku survived a fight with him. He did not say anything like, wow his ki is amazing. You would think they would all freak out at sensing someone on the level of a ssg.

So, i think its like this:

Kkx10 ssj blue doesnt exist. ssg is 6 on the Toriyama scale, ssj blue currently is 8 and Black Rose so far is say 8.3 ish.

To get ssj1-3, u simply divide 8 by 400,100 and 50. So, base Goku/Vegeta are above ssj3 Gotenks, their ssj forms are around ssj2 Vegetto and so forth. And ssj blue is in another realm of power.

Trunks did so well vs Black Rose, for that brief moment, due to luck(in universe) and plot outside the universe.

That is how i see it.

[Hugo Boss]

Zamasu does easily overwhelm Kibito but there were a couple parts where it wasn't that one sided. Considering Kibito was weaker than Base Gohan, it does look like he's weaker than than his anime counterpart.

Kibito doesn't have the arm strength to lift Z Sword like the Saiyans do, but I don't think his power relies only on that. His magic is similar to that of Jedis. Perhaps he is not that far from U7 Kaioshin's level, since Zamasu wasn't stomping him.

[Darkron2151]

So since Goku Black was present when Kaioshin died and when trunks unlocked SSJ2 against Dabura (whom of which was beating regular SSJ Trunks pretty handily, yet was on par with SSJ Gohan in the past), does that count as the beginning of the "one year" that Goku Black was around? If so, how did Trunks get so strong to where his SSJ2 form is on par with post-Whis training SSJ3 Goku in ONE year?

[Bullza]

Dabra - 4.5 billion

So you think Dabura is equal to Perfect Cell rather than Super Perfect Cell?

Isn't that a bit of a squeeze? Goku and Vegeta were supposed to be stronger than Gohan back in the Cell Games and comparing how Goku handled the sword compared to Trunks then it looks like the latter would be stronger.

Dabura didn't decimate Trunks but Dabura was smiling while Trunks was all bruised. When Trunks turned SSJ2 he lay into Dabura but he was still confident that he could beat him.

I think he probably has a lot of SSGs power in Base as it's a big multiplier but he can only equal that power once he goes SS.

Yeah well that was the general idea what some people including myself were saying before. Super Saiyan was as strong God and Base was 1/50th as strong.

How much sense does that make really though? Base Goku destroyed Beerus' blast and it was pushing him back as a Super Saiyan. Why is Base Goku surviving after taking unrestrained attacks from Beerus if he's dozens of times stronger?

Resurrection F seemed to imply that it was his Base form that had that power. No matter what way you look at it things don't make sense regardless.

1. It makes no sense for Base Goku to be as strong as SSJG because it makes SSJG weaker than 1% of Beerus.

2. It makes no sense for SSJ Goku to be as strong as SSJG because he shouldn't have destroyed that blast or withstood those attacks.

3. It makes no sense for SSJ3 Goku to be weaker than SSJG because Whis said he was at the level of Gods before he came out with SSJB.

[TheMikado]

^ The Super manga doesn't have those contradictions.

[ekrolo2]

Dabra - 4.5 billion

So you think Dabura is equal to Perfect Cell rather than Super Perfect Cell?

Isn't that a bit of a squeeze? Goku and Vegeta were supposed to be stronger than Gohan back in the Cell Games and comparing how Goku handled the sword compared to Trunks then it looks like the latter would be stronger.

Dabura didn't decimate Trunks but Dabura was smiling while Trunks was all bruised. When Trunks turned SSJ2 he lay into Dabura but he was still confident that he could beat him.

Gohan is a weak Super Saiyan against Dabura in the Boo Saga and doesn't die immediately from it. That alone squashes any ideas of him being anywhere close to Super Pefect Cell. Hell, even me making him THIS strong is me being generous on my part. The only way Future Dabura is SPC tier is if he's somehow stronger than the main timeline counterpart.

Yeah well that was the general idea what some people including myself were saying before. Super Saiyan was as strong God and Base was 1/50th as strong.

How much sense does that make really though? Base Goku destroyed Beerus' blast and it was pushing him back as a Super Saiyan. Why is Base Goku surviving after taking unrestrained attacks from Beerus if he's dozens of times stronger?

Resurrection F seemed to imply that it was his Base form that had that power. No matter what way you look at it things don't make sense regardless.

1. It makes no sense for Base Goku to be as strong as SSJG because it makes SSJG weaker than 1% of Beerus.

2. It makes no sense for SSJ Goku to be as strong as SSJG because he shouldn't have destroyed that blast or withstood those attacks.

3. It makes no sense for SSJ3 Goku to be weaker than SSJG because Whis said he was at the level of Gods before he came out with SSJB.

It's a foregone conclusion and scientifically proven fact on the elevel of 2+2=4 that the Super anime is total crock shite when it comes to powers. I see no point in trying to rationalize any of it. It's needlessly convoluted a concept that was really simple in the movies: Goku and Vegeta got a new source of power, ergo, that's their default source of power from now on. The manga also does the sensible thing by just making the God forms just more transformations. The anime is trying to go with this hybrid system that doesn't work at all.

[HeroR]

God energy obviously makes things stronger. By Goku just having a taste of godhood, it took his base form from being weaker than Freeza, according to Beerus, to taking hits form Beerus. Being able to merged that force with Super Saiyan would create an extremely powerful transformation that surpasses Super Saiyan God.

In the show Super Saiyan God had God level power and God Ki so he couldn't be sensed. When his time ran out and he went back to Super Saiyan he kept that God power but lost the God Ki, he was as strong but now people could sense him again.

After that his Super Saiyan was supposed to have all the God power. So what's different about Super Saiyan Blue other than it has God Ki which means it can't be sensed. If Super Saiyan Blue is Goku with the power of a God turning Super Saiyan...then isn't that the same as regular Super Saiyan?

So new manga basically shows Trunks going SSJ2 for the first time against Dabura and obviously not much stronger than SPC. With Black already on the scene and watching, everyone already dead, the Z sword broken, it's unlikely he had the time or means to "train" himself into God Tier. I think this pretty much confirms Trunks is NOT God Tier and Z Buu levels at best.

Well in the chapter they said Black showed up a little while after and he was supposed to have been around for a year before Trunks travelled into the past so he'd have had slightly over a year to get stronger. Is the SSJ2 Trunks in this chapter that one shots Dabura supposed to be the equivalent of the SSJ2 Trunks that fought Goku at first and he said he was stronger than Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan? That'd make sense.

So what then is up with his full power strength being equal to Black saga SSJ3 Goku? Could he have learned how to become a Mastered SSJ2 in the year since he learned it? He was able to push Black back with his power though we don't know strong he is yet but you'd think he wouldn't be Buu levels.

Edit: Actually the battle with Dabura was several years ago for Trunks so he had a good amount of time to train and get stronger.

Goku's regular ki got stronger after tasting godhood. Which is why his power didn't decrease when he lost his God form. By adding God power again after already having a huge power increase and doing it with Super Saiyan and not his base like Super Saiyan God, he got Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Vegeta did the same thing, except he trained.

Also, mastered Super Saiyan doesn't make Super Saiyan stronger. It just makes it more energy efficient. So Even if Trunks mastered Super Saiyan 2, it wouldn't increase the multiplier of Super Saiyan 2.

[ssbgoku]

Just adding some more food to discuss. As we are now in anime it would be perfect opportunity to bring back ssg ritual to make trunks god level faster way. Future trunks really need to step in god levels by being clad in divine ki to be any help/use against future zamasu or black. If it happens then I bet goku will transform in ssg himself just to show off. I would laugh so hard if toei has done but he easily could do that at whim and for benefit/sales.

Toei explanation:

As trunks turn ssg and can not believe its power goku comes and turns in one as well.

Trunks: wow, goku san you obtained this form too
Goku: Yeah after I absorbed it I could transform in it at whim.
Krillin(Dbs anime Fan): but you told us you dont need it anymore.
Goku. Oh that, well I already was working on ssb that why I said I could become god without need to turn super Saiyan god.
Krillin: Really, what about when you fought beerus as ss.
Goku: Ah then. I was already in process of becoming ssb but couldnt master it so it stayed like that.
Krillin: then in base form you destroyed beerus blast
Goku: Yeah I pulled all ss post ssg power in last burst
Krillin: it make sense. What about against freeza.
Goku: Well back then I was trying to master ssg but I couldnt so you could saw me in my normal state but much stronger then my normal form.
Krillin: Really so simple and yet I didnt think about it. Then what about your golden forms or fighting beerus as monaca
Goku: Oh really , so it was beerus. Hmm beerus was restricted so much i guess. Also my base form improved and powered up a lot on compare to prior beerus meeting.
Krillin: that sounds cliche and stupid
Goku: well about ss forms they are stronger due to gains in base
Krillin: that it ?
Goku: Yeah
Krillin: That just doesnt make sense! Retconn!

Toei: oh well

[Bullza]

Gohan is a weak Super Saiyan against Dabura in the Boo Saga and doesn't die immediately from it.

How do we kown Gohan wasn't just a weak Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura? Dabura doesn't die immediately against Super Saiyan 2 Trunks either. Dabura did say it wouldn't be hard to defeat him after he fought it that first time.

Plus even after seeing SSJ Goku beat Yakon he was confident enough to tell him along with Gohan and Vegeta to all go at him at once.

It's a foregone conclusion and scientifically proven fact on the elevel of 2+2=4 that the Super anime is total crock shite when it comes to powers.

Yeah I just can't make heads or tails of it at all.

On the one side were shown a Base Goku whose arguably comparable to SSJG, who can tank Beerus' unrestrained hits and fight with him and hold his own.

But then we're told Base Goku can get hundreds, thousands, of times stronger with his best forms but he's still weaker than Beerus.

The manga makes a hell of a lot more sense even if it did ignore what was established by Toriyama.

[TheMikado]

Gohan is a weak Super Saiyan against Dabura in the Boo Saga and doesn't die immediately from it.

How do we kown Gohan wasn't just a weak Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura? Dabura doesn't die immediately against Super Saiyan 2 Trunks either. Dabura did say it wouldn't be hard to defeat him after he fought it that first time.

Plus even after seeing SSJ Goku beat Yakon he was confident enough to tell him along with Gohan and Vegeta to all go at him at once.

It's a foregone conclusion and scientifically proven fact on the elevel of 2+2=4 that the Super anime is total crock shite when it comes to powers.

Yeah I just can't make heads or tails of it at all.

On the one side were shown a Base Goku whose arguably comparable to SSJG, who can tank Beerus' unrestrained hits and fight with him and hold his own.

But then we're told Base Goku can get hundreds, thousands, of times stronger with his best forms but he's still weaker than Beerus.

The manga makes a hell of a lot more sense even if it did ignore what was established by Toriyama.

Ignore it how? If anything it's following far closer.

[ZombieVito]

By reading comments it seems Trunks got SSJ2 while fighting Dabura right?

If that's the case then what if he also got it in the anime that way? I watched the scene again and Dabura apparently knocked out Trunks for a moment but then he power ups and beats him easily.

People will say no sparks but honestly who the hell cares? The manga didn't have them for Gohan vs Dabura and the former was confirmed as a SSJ 2 during that fight.

[Bullza]

Ignore it how? If anything it's following far closer.

It's ignoring that Goku absorbed the power of God so he wouldn't need to use it anymore, that was a pretty significant plot point that was skipped over in the manga.

Also if Base Goku isn't extra super strong now and stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan and Piccolo which he technically still could be, but if he wasn't then that would mean Resurrection F's story played out differently from what he wrote.

If that's the case then what if he also got it in the anime that way?

I see no reason why it couldn't be the same. Sparks have never been too consistent. When he turned SSJ2 for Goku be said that power didn't work on Black but there were no sparks when he fought Black.

There were sparks when he fought Vegeta but there were none when he fought Black and Zamasu.

[Chiki]

You guys are acting a little weird. We've known that Super Saiyan being introduced in the U6 ruined everything since it was introduced and you're just having a detailed discussion about it?

[TheMikado]

Ignore it how? If anything it's following far closer.

It's ignoring that Goku absorbed the power of God so he wouldn't need to use it anymore, that was a pretty significant plot point that was skipped over in the manga.

Also if Base Goku isn't extra super strong now and stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan and Piccolo which he technically still could be, but if he wasn't then that would mean Resurrection F's story played out differently from what he wrote.

You keep saying this but it's such an incredibly weird position to hold. Those ideas were conceived for a VERY specific purpose which was a 90 minute movie. It's incredibly likely that when Toriyama sat down and thought about where to take the series next, having characters hundreds or thousands of times stronger than "universe punches" wasn't going to work long term in a serialized format. Good writers think about things like that instead of writing themselves into a corner. It's like those people still clinging to the 6-10-15 scale. It's plain out dated for the serialized format and wasn't part of a plan for a long term series.

[Bullza]

That Goku absorbed the power of God was something that was brought up in one movie, brought up in an interview by Toriyama before he'd even thought of the future of the series and was then also a thing in the following movie.

The anime was just consistent with that. The manga wasn't.

Toriyama may have had nothing to do with the Universe punches. He should have just been writing up the plot outline for the Universe 6 saga which was supposed to continue on from his movie.

Whether he changed his mind and radically nerfed Goku...seems odd without explanation. If he did it's something that would have screwed over what they were doing with the anime but someone involved should have been aware of that and the people at Toei could have come up with an explanation.

[HeroR]

By reading comments it seems Trunks got SSJ2 while fighting Dabura right?

If that's the case then what if he also got it in the anime that way? I watched the scene again and Dabura apparently knocked out Trunks for a moment but then he power ups and beats him easily.

People will say no sparks but honestly who the hell cares? The manga didn't have them for Gohan vs Dabura and the former was confirmed as a SSJ 2 during that fight.

The anime gave the abridged version. Trunks said in his narration that it was a tough battle, but he somehow prevailed. The anime shortened it to make it look like Trunks had an easy time than the text suggests.

And no, let's not start this stupid debate again about rather Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 while fighting Dabura.

That Goku absorbed the power of God was something that was brought up in one movie, brought up in an interview by Toriyama before he'd even thought of the future of the series and was then also a thing in the following movie.

The anime was just consistent with that. The manga wasn't.

Toriyama may have had nothing to do with the Universe punches. He should have just been writing up the plot outline for the Universe 6 saga which was supposed to continue on from his movie.

Whether he changed his mind and radically nerfed Goku...seems odd without explanation. If he did it's something that would have screwed over what they were doing with the anime but someone involved should have been aware of that and the people at Toei could have come up with an explanation.

Or the more likely answered.

The manga likes Super Saiyan God, which is why Goku can still used it. The manga also likes Trunks, which is why he was given a mutated Super Saiyan 2.

I don't see why Toriyama would go against what he wrote in both the movies and his own interviews, all because he decides to do a tv series instead of just doing movies. If he did, he didn't tell the anime staff, but told the person drawing the manga? Why? Especially since when did Toriyama cared about power levels?

[TheMikado]

We have no idea how long it took to get preproduction going on new material. By the time Toriyama and Toei had a script together for Champa and Trunks would could have been in the F arc for Super. Toyble would be at an advantage of basing it on what Toriyama is CURRENTLY thinking and not what he was thinking years ago when he was making one time MOVIES and not a TV series. Again do you still think the 6-10-15 scale still applies????? He obviously changed his mind about it but didn't bother to state it in or out universe! I don't understand why you think he can change his mind about one thing and not something else. Like logically why can he change the 6-10-15 scale but not the absorption thing?

[ZombieVito]

By reading comments it seems Trunks got SSJ2 while fighting Dabura right?

If that's the case then what if he also got it in the anime that way? I watched the scene again and Dabura apparently knocked out Trunks for a moment but then he power ups and beats him easily.

People will say no sparks but honestly who the hell cares? The manga didn't have them for Gohan vs Dabura and the former was confirmed as a SSJ 2 during that fight.

The anime gave the abridged version. Trunks said in his narration that it was a tough battle, but he somehow prevailed. The anime shortened it to make it look like Trunks had an easy time than the text suggests.

And no, let's not start this stupid debate again about rather Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 while fighting Dabura.

Yeah it looks like the anime scene is abridged. It seemed Trunks was having a hard time until the moment he powers up. Fuck it, he got SSJ2 there in my head canon.

There's really no debate. Logic, dialogue and D7 specially already confirmed the matter.

[HeroR]

Yeah it looks like the anime scene is abridged. It seemed Trunks was having a hard time until the moment he powers up. Fuck it, he got SSJ2 there in my head canon.

There's really no debate. Logic, dialogue and D7 specially already confirmed the matter.

You obviously didn't see the debate here or in the manga section.

We have no idea how long it took to get preproduction going on new material. By the time Toriyama and Toei had a script together for Champa and Trunks would could have been in the F arc for Super. Toyble would be at an advantage of basing it on what Toriyama is CURRENTLY thinking and not what he was thinking years ago when he was making one time MOVIES and not a TV series. Again do you still think the 6-10-15 scale still applies????? He obviously changed his mind about it but didn't bother to state it in or out universe! I don't understand why you think he can change his mind about one thing and not something else. Like logically why can he change the 6-10-15 scale but not the absorption thing?

Right and Toriyama didn't tell anyone he randomly decided to retcon Goku absorbing godhood except for the manga and not the production team for reasons. And the 6-10-15 were random numbers he gave to show how much Super Saiyan God Goku fell behind Beerus, and how Whis trumps all of them. They were never meant to be hard and fast power levels. And Resurrection 'F' came out the same years as Super, it wasn't written years ago.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah it looks like the anime scene is abridged. It seemed Trunks was having a hard time until the moment he powers up. Fuck it, he got SSJ2 there in my head canon.

There's really no debate. Logic, dialogue and D7 specially already confirmed the matter.

You obviously didn't see the debate here or in the manga section.

I did and I still go with the official info but lets leave it at that.